KickStarter Serpent in the Staglands Pre-Release Thread

[roshan]

In a story-driven RPG, roleplaying opportunies are delivered primarily in the form of offering the player a variety of ways to solve quests (including ways which might be interpreted as "content skipping", btw, such as immediately murdering the quest giver).

If the game gives XP for murdering anyone, then that is a good thing, but as we know POE doesn't give combat or kill XP, most likely if you kill quest givers you will simply fail the quest, but correct me if I am wrong and the beta has demonstrated otherwise.

And roleplaying is certainly not simply limited to questing, much less quest grinding.

Skipping quest content in a story-driven RPG isn't "roleplaying", it's refusing to play the game.

Errr.... No. You can play Planescape Torment for example without having to go completely OCD and grind all the quests. Is your stance that players should be forced or strongly goaded towards completing each and every quest else the game is not an RPG?

Being unique implies that there's no "particular pattern".

Doing each and every quest is most certainly a pattern and if the game goads players towards this through it's XP system then it is most certainly promoting grinding.

If "quest grinding" is an issue that exists, then it exists in every RPG that offers XP for quests, regardless of whether quests are the only way of getting XP. Luckily, it doesn't.

Certainly you can grind quests in any RPG with quest XP. And you can also grind combat and encounters in any RPG with combat XP. But if your game gives XP for both quests and combat, you consistently have a choice of which system to interact with to develop your characters, and hence are not forced to grind a particular one, you can simply play. If only one system gives you XP, such as Diablo which only has combat XP. or POE which only has quest XP, then you are basically goaded into grinding that particular system.

 

[roshan]

Skipping quest content in a story-driven RPG isn't "roleplaying", it's refusing to play the game.

LOL. Thankfully you're not the one who gets to decide that.

Well in PoE Sawyer has decided that for you as he exclusively knows what is and isn't fun.

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

If "quest grinding" is an issue that exists, then it exists in every RPG that offers XP for quests, regardless of whether quests are the only way of getting XP. Luckily, it doesn't.

The idea of 'quest grinding' could be interpreted in different ways and I can share where we were going with that. Something we avoided in the game’s design is the type of quest system where a player talks to everyone or are hopping between key quest givers and getting some banal or monumental task from them, and the design faulting them in some way if not completed (viable or not). We’re certainly not saying this is wrong, but we wanted to explore a system where there isn’t formalized quest hopping, and the adventure plays out more like an adventure game where a player has to decipher what to do (a hands off GM). That and role-playing a profession that the world would react to with a cautious neutrality.

A common approach we took to this is giving the player ideas of events and happenings without instilling an obligation to do or see them in any specific way. Leaving it up to the player what to write down and how they interpret letters and events makes the adventure more personal. So for example, hearing “Lev is razed” by a town crier doesn’t give the player an immediate mission, but implies that Lev could have some issues and it could be interesting to go visit or safe to stay away. By putting the player in the middle of happenings but not being at the center of them, the idea of quests take a background to just conducting your adventure.

Somewhat similar to how in BG1 (the objectively superior infinity engine title) you constantly hear about various issues that you seek out throughout the game (political issues in the city, war with Amn, iron shortage), but not really doing anything about it until you get there. A much more grounded experience. We enjoy that sense of exploration, it makes it seem more like a good table top session rather than a checklist.

Certainly not everyone’s preference, but we think it will be an interesting and rewarding system.

 

[Infinitron]

Errr.... No. You can play Planescape Torment for example without having to go completely OCD and grind all the quests. Is your stance that players should be forced or strongly goaded towards completing each and every quest else the game is not an RPG?

They already are strongly goaded, roshan. Why on earth would you play PS:T if not to experience all the unique, scripted quest content that Chris Avellone worked so hard to create for you? The stellar combat system? The open world sandbox mechanics?

That's what Black Isle/Obsidian quest-driven, story-driven RPGs are about. It's not "going OCD", it's playing the game. Skipping or ignoring content in PS:T isn't "roleplaying", it's called being a casual who doesn't want to do everything the game offers him.

"Quest grinding" doesn't exist. It's something you made up because you can't come up with a better explanation for why you want combat XP. But you can argue for combat XP without resorting to made up non-problems.

 

[Angthoron]

Somewhat similar to how in BG1 (the objectively superior infinity engine title) you constantly hear about various issues that you seek out throughout the game (political issues in the city, war with Amn, iron shortage), but not really doing anything about it until you get there. A much more grounded experience. We enjoy that sense of exploration, it makes it seem more like a good table top session rather than a checklist.

Will buy an extra copy of the game for this paragraph.

 

[roshan]

They already are strongly goaded, roshan. Why on earth would you play PS:T if not to experience all the unique, scripted quest content that Chris Avellone worked so hard to create for you? The stellar combat system? The open world sandbox mechanics?

That's what Black Isle/Obsidian quest-driven, story-driven RPGs are about. It's not "going OCD", it's playing the game. Skipping or ignoring content in PS:T isn't "roleplaying", it's called being a casual who doesn't want to do everything the game offers him.

If you want to do each and every thing offered by the game, then you aren't roleplaying, you're just... doing what the game offers you.

And it's weird that you think you should do each and everything in PST because it simply isn't designed as a game where you do each and every thing. It's a game where you do things that are in line with the particular personality or alignment you want to play, not where you are everyone's errand boy. And if you tried to "grind" PST by doing as much as you could you would actually consistently miss out on a lot of the game's secrets that you would only find out if you picked different things to do.

"Quest grinding" doesn't exist. It's something you made up because you can't come up with a better explanation for why you want combat XP. But you can argue for combat XP without resorting to made up non-problems.

What's weird is that you are claiming that all RPG's need to be played in an exact particular way by grinding all the quests, therefore there is no such thing as quest grinding. It's like claiming "women should be forced into sex therefore there is no such thing as rape" or "people should be forced to serve others therefore there is no such thing as slavery". Making accepting and completing all quests a mandatory requirement is the very definition of enforcing quest grinding, it certainly does not indicate that quest grinding is a non issue.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Haba]

Even though RPG's tend to attract a lot of OCD autistics, OCD autism is not role-playing.

 

[Cosmo]

If you want to do each and every thing offered by the game, then you aren't roleplaying, you're just... doing what the game offers you.

Aaaaand another larping idiot.

It's like claiming "women should be forced into sex therefore there is no such thing as rape" or "people should be forced to serve others therefore there is no such thing as slavery".

For good measure i really think you should sprinkle some holocaust references here and there, that should really help your case.

Even though RPG's tend to attract a lot of OCD autistics, OCD autism is not role-playing.

And let's not talk about the autistics who desperately need to create a problem out of thin air...

 

[Athelas]

Doing each and every quest is most certainly a pattern and if the game goads players towards this through it's XP system then it is most certainly promoting grinding.

You know you're not actually forced to do everything in a game, right? You could skip virtually every wilderness area in BG1 and miss out on most of the (combat) content of the game.

Similarly, rather than running into a hostile ogre and killing it for XP, you now have to go to town first, get the quest to kill the rampaging ogre, then kill it, and then get XP after you report back to town. So you are now no longer playing, but simply "grinding", doing repetitive shit in one of the prespecified orders decided by the developers.

Or you could just kill the ogre and if you later find an NPC talking about the ogre, you can tell him that you already killed the ogre (i.e. how it's actually handled in PoE). Players being able to do things out of order isn't some novel fact that game designers are just now discovering.

 

[roshan]

Aaaaand another larping idiot.

Butthurt questfag "yes bitch" detected.

Objecting to quest grinding has very little to do with larping. It has to do with the fact that some players do not want to be forced through content that they might find uninteresting. And some players might want to enjoy themselves by not having to do all quests and maximize each and every one for every last ounce of XP.

Take Fallout 2, for example. You can get a quest to guard the brahmin in Klamath. Depending on what you do in that quest, you can also get further quests - to rustle the brahmin, to rescue Torr, and in the restoration pack to expose the Dunton brothers.

In a game with quest only XP, players would be incentivised to do all of these quests regardless of whether they thought it appropriate or not. It would no longer be roleplaying of any sort, they would simply be grinding to cross out items from a checklist and gain the XP rewards from doing so. However, since Fallout 2 has an unlimited supply of XP via combat in random encounters, you can try different and interesting things with the Duntons that you realize won't lead to optimized XP rewards, as if you want XP, you can get it from somewhere else.

Even PST had dungeons with respawning enemies where you could farm for huge amounts of XP. I'm not saying this is some sort of pillar of design or anything, but even a hardcore storyfag game like PST had some sort of counterbalance to disincentivize quest grinding.

 

[roshan]

You know you're not actually forced to do everything in a game, right? You could skip virtually every wilderness area in BG1 and miss out on most of the (combat) content of the game.

Of course. You could skip the combat in BG1 and get XP from doing quests. Or you could skip quests and roam around killing stuff for XP. Either way you are able to gain XP by doing what you enjoy. As opposed to having to grind one of the systems.

Or you could just kill the ogre and if you find an NPC talking about the ogre, you can tell him that you killed him.

You are still doing the quest but in reverse order. So now you kill random ogres and roam around looking for someone to report to so that you can get the quest XP... Sorry but this does not at all sound like remotely fun gameplay.

 

[Cosmo]

Try as you might, i won't adress your imaginary issue roshan, because in a story-driven CRPG quests ARE the game (yes, as is combat), and roleplay only happens within their frame, i.e. in the different outcomes and approaches they allow. You can very well play like what you keep advocating, i don't care one way or another, but saying CRPG gameplay should be measured by your purely subjective and external standards is utter nonsense. Quests are the meat my friend, and when you need to answer to standards that are outside what the game consists of, yes you're larping, sorry to break it to you.

End of discussion on my part, but by all means, try and masturbate all you want.

 

[Angthoron]

'Spergers in the Staglands.

 

[polo]

So, quest grindin', huh? Amirite or wat?
I think grindin in quests would have been a better choice of words.

 

[Gozma]

I assume "quest grinding" means "collect 10 owlbear antlers" quests

 

[polo]

I assume "quest grinding" means "collect 10 owlbear antlers" quests

I asumed the same, thats why i said "grinding in quests".

 

[Athelas]

Even PST had dungeons with respawning enemies where you could farm for huge amounts of XP.

This must be the first time I've seen PS:T praised for its trash mobs.

Of course. You could skip the combat in BG1 and get XP from doing quests. Or you could skip quests and roam around killing stuff for XP. Either way you are able to gain XP by doing what you enjoy. As opposed to having to grind one of the systems.

I don't remember quest XP being very prominent at all in the first BG1 (unlike its sequel). I do remember being able to gain huge amounts of XP from killing stuff. Here is what a google search about how to best level in BG1 turns up:

Spoiler

Go to the wyvern cave in Cloakwood and just keep resting. I think there is a bit at the top to the right where the wyvern is too big to fit through so you can kill them without them getting close. The flesh golem cave is another good option.

There are two excellent places for farming xp.

The first is the lighthouse map south of Candlekeep. First however you should go to the southeastern most map and talk to the gnome there. He will give you a free Protection from Magic scroll if you do the right conversation path. Next go to the lighthouse map. There are six sirines along the beach. Use the Protection from Magic scroll on your main tank and he will be immune to their Charms. They are very easy to kill if you are protected from Charm, and they are worth 2000 xp each. Inside the cave are three flesh golems. These guys are also worth 2000 xp each. They hit very hard, but their fists are blunt weapons. There is a very good potion called the Potion of Absorption which you can find several scattered around the game, and I think High Hedge sells them too. These potions gives a +10 bonus against blunt weapons. If you already have a good AC and drink this potion, the golems won't be able to hit you except on a critical hit. Also, the golems are immune to non-magical weapons, so you need a +1 weapon or better to hit them.

The second good area for farming xp is the map east of Beregost temple. First go to High Hedge and buy either Potions of Mirrored Eyes or Protection from Petrification scrolls. You need these because that map is full of basilisks that can petrify you. Basilisks are very easy to kill with petrification protection, and they are worth 1400 xp for the lesser basilisk and 4000 for the greater. There are no items that give you permanent petrification protection like you asked for, but you truly don't need it. The Protection from Petrification scrolls last 10 turns (remember 1 turn = 10 rounds) so you should be able to clear out the entire map with one or two scrolls. The potions of Mirrored Eyes have a very short duration of 5 rounds, so they are not nearly as effective, although they can be helpful in a pinch.

You are still doing the quest but in reverse order. So now you kill random ogres and roam around looking for someone to report to so that you can get the quest XP... Sorry but this does not at all sound like remotely fun gameplay.

There was no random ogre in the example I gave - you can talk to the ogre and solve the problem in a variety of ways. It sounds like you don't really know what you're talking about, so it's probably best to end the discussion here.

 

[roshan]

Try as you might, i won't adress your imaginary issue roshan, because in a story-driven CRPG quests ARE the game (yes, as is combat), and roleplay only happens within their frame, i.e. in the different outcomes and approaches they allow. You can very well play like what you keep advocating, i don't care one way or another, but saying CRPG gameplay should be measured by your purely subjective and external standards is utter nonsense. Quests are the meat my friend, and when you need to answer to standards that are outside what the game consists of, yes you're larping, sorry to break it to you.

End of discussion on my part, but by all means, try and masturbate all you want.

If quest grinding is what RPGs are all about, you might as well make a grocery list and spend your money there instead. Not only would you still get to cross things off a list, you'd also have something to eat when you get home.

 

[Cosmo]

 

[vivec]

If "quest grinding" is an issue that exists, then it exists in every RPG that offers XP for quests, regardless of whether quests are the only way of getting XP. Luckily, it doesn't.

The idea of 'quest grinding' could be interpreted in different ways and I can share where we were going with that. Something we avoided in the game’s design is the type of quest system where a player talks to everyone or are hopping between key quest givers and getting some banal or monumental task from them, and the design faulting them in some way if not completed (viable or not). We’re certainly not saying this is wrong, but we wanted to explore a system where there isn’t formalized quest hopping, and the adventure plays out more like an adventure game where a player has to decipher what to do (a hands off GM). That and role-playing a profession that the world would react to with a cautious neutrality.

A common approach we took to this is giving the player ideas of events and happenings without instilling an obligation to do or see them in any specific way. Leaving it up to the player what to write down and how they interpret letters and events makes the adventure more personal. So for example, hearing “Lev is razed” by a town crier doesn’t give the player an immediate mission, but implies that Lev could have some issues and it could be interesting to go visit or safe to stay away. By putting the player in the middle of happenings but not being at the center of them, the idea of quests take a background to just conducting your adventure.

Somewhat similar to how in BG1 (the objectively superior infinity engine title) you constantly hear about various issues that you seek out throughout the game (political issues in the city, war with Amn, iron shortage), but not really doing anything about it until you get there. A much more grounded experience. We enjoy that sense of exploration, it makes it seem more like a good table top session rather than a checklist.

Certainly not everyone’s preference, but we think it will be an interesting and rewarding system.

I am really happy I backed your project. This is the kind of design that has seen little exposure in modern games. No hand holding, treating your audience with respect and allowing them to choose their story. Thanks!

I assume "quest grinding" means "collect 10 owlbear antlers" quests

Or even quests which involve fedex missions.

 

[roshan]

This must be the first time I've seen PS:T praised for its trash mobs.

Nice use of selective quoting to turn what I was saying around 180 degrees.

I don't remember quest XP being very prominent at all in the first BG1 (unlike its sequel). I do remember being able to gain huge amounts of XP from killing stuff. Here is what a google search about how to best level in BG1 turns up:

Agreed, and this is just one of BG1's failings. I am not in favor of XP being strongly skewed or solely limited to either combat or quests. I'd like XP to be built into as many game systems as possible. Let people be able to use skills, thieve, fight, talk, quest for XP. The more you spread the rewards around, the larger the variety of playstyles your game supports.

There was no random ogre in the example I gave - you can talk to the ogre and solve the problem in a variety of ways. It sounds like you don't really know what you're talking about, so it's probably best to end the discussion here.

It's a random ogre because you don't know it is a quest objective unless you are replaying the game. So essentially your gameplay experience is reverse completing quests, killing random stuff and fetching random items, and then looking for someone to report to or give the items to in order to get your XP. This just illustrates the problem and lack of freedom inherent with no combat XP and "quest checklist" design.

 

[Athelas]

Nice use of selective quoting to turn what I was saying around 180 degrees.

You are aware of the context (being the one who posted it), why don't you just reply with whatever you want to say?

Agreed, and this is just one of BG1's failings. I am not in favor of XP being strongly skewed or solely limited to either combat or quests. I'd like XP to be built into as many game systems as possible. Let people be able to use skills, thieve, fight, talk, quest for XP. The more you spread the rewards around, the larger the variety of playstyles your game supports.

No, that's not how it works. By rewarding everything, you incentivize doing everything. Deus Ex does the opposite and it succeeds: one reward (objective-based), and it supports any play style.

It's a random ogre because you don't know it is a quest objective unless you are replaying the game. So essentially your gameplay experience is reverse completing quests, killing random stuff and fetching random items, and then looking for someone to report to or give the items to in order to get your XP. This just illustrates the problem and lack of freedom inherent with no combat XP and "quest checklist" design.

Why are you assuming an IE successor is going to have MMO-style quests?

 

[polo]

Hmmm the updater doesn't seem to work very well.
Downloaded ver 2.0 from dropbox (140mb), updater checked and downloaded v2.01 (110mb), after that checked and started downloading 2.02 (another 110mb).
Is this intended?

 

[polo]

Update: