RPG of the Decade - Developers' Choice

[Lockkaliber]

It was the X-box generations first RPG. That's the conclusion I've come to over the years. It certainly doesn't excel in story, combat or choices, even within Biowares own catalog. It could also have something to do with half the planet being Star Wars fans as well.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Can anyone please explain to me why is Kotor1 getting so much fucking praise? I don't deny that I liked it and replayed it like twice, but for fuck's sake, it was nowhere near 'game of the decade' material in any fucking way, while I see it praised to the heavanz almost everywhere.

Let me remember what I enjoyed back when I was 13.

- Walking invisible across the sandy dunes, seeing an animal or a sandperson walk by without noticing me, pausing the game, clicking on him...

and then seeing an invisible guy fire up into the sky and have his lightsaber fall on the enemy, killing him instantly, before he knew who or what hit him.

- Custcenes showing descent and ascent away from planets - "feeling of adventure" kind of stuff

- Dozens of people crying on your shoulders and telling you their life's problems. My 13 year old self felt really good to be the unpaid personal psychologist of so many tough guys.

- the Jeremy Soule music

- Laying down dozens of mines across a pathway that leads to an enemy bossfight, and when the fight is triggered, I run away from him, and he dies immediately. Killed Darth Malak too that way.

Easily impressed me enough for me to be all "SO AWESOME" back then. One's tastes change the fastest during teenage years.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Can anyone please explain to me why is Kotor1 getting so much fucking praise? I don't deny that I liked it and replayed it like twice, but for fuck's sake, it was nowhere near 'game of the decade' material in any fucking way, while I see it praised to the heavanz almost everywhere.

The most stunning detail is that its COMBAT SYSTEM has been praised as the best of the decade.

 

[Imbecile]

Great article.

That is all.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Posting this here for VD.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk ... hp?t=58875

if developers focus on gameplay instead of graphics for a change.

I don't know why, but this sentence: makes me unjustifiably angry. Is it wrong to say that's a kind of technological ludditism?

It's kind of ironic he says that because his game was originally going to be 2D and sprite based like Fallout and then when a few people out of many said it looked outdated, he switched to that shiny, pretty 3D engine he's using today. I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the bigger reasons why it's taken them so long to finish it.

He/they were using 2d sprites that were captures of animated 3d models, which I think is similar to what Geneforge and a lot of similar RPGs do. The game did look like Geneforge or Avernum back then, but the guy behind it (the giant douchebag) was really sensitive to the little criticism it got (most people thought it looked fine) and then got offended and quickly got to work on the pretty graphics it has today. I don't really care. It's just funny given all of his whining about developers focusing on better, prettier graphics.

It looks like someone doesn't understand what the word "focus" means.

Btw, Roy does remind me of a certain butthurt poster here, who also liked to talk about sprites a lot. Some posts are nearly identical.

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

It looks like someone doesn't understand what the word "focus" means.

You mean like when someone abandons an easier to work with engine because the graphics weren't good enough?

Btw, Roy does remind me of a certain butthurt poster here, who also liked to talk about sprites a lot. Some posts are nearly identical.

Delusional much?

In any case, that certain poster isn't a native speaker and his English sucks, so it can't be him.

 

[Dandelion]

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

Even though unfinished thanks to the retarded publisher and technically way below the average, it remains one of the best and most ambitious RPGs I've ever played.

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

unfinished thanks to the retarded publisher.

Those evil publishers screwing the hard-working Troika over and over! And not just one, but three different publishers! They're all scum, if you ask me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It looks like someone doesn't understand what the word "focus" means.

You mean like when someone abandons an easier to work with engine because the graphics weren't good enough?

Easier to work with? What does this statement based on? Are you familiar with Torque? With our original 2D engine?

Anyway, we switched for several reasons:

a - certain issues with the 2D engine which required extensive workarounds; switching to TGE fixed it.
b - working with models and animations was a pain; switching to TGE fixed it.
c - TGE has a very robust scripting system which actually makes working easier
d - better visuals.

The last factor wasn't the least. The game simply didn't look good enough to have a fighting chance. It would have failed because the graphics were horrible.

 

[Lockkaliber]

unfinished thanks to the retarded publisher.

Those evil publishers screwing the hard-working Troika over and over! And not just one, but three different publishers! They're all scum, if you ask me.

What's your problem Drog? Why do you have to be so neurotic all the time?

 

[Silellak]

Can anyone please explain to me why is Kotor1 getting so much fucking praise? I don't deny that I liked it and replayed it like twice, but for fuck's sake, it was nowhere near 'game of the decade' material in any fucking way, while I see it praised to the heavanz almost everywhere.

The most stunning detail is that its COMBAT SYSTEM has been praised as the best of the decade.

Yeah, that comment confused the fuck out of me, too. I enjoyed the game, mostly because I was still a pretty big Star Wars nerd when it came out, but the combat in it was hardly worthy of note. It's not even close to being BIOWARE'S best combat system, much less the best combat system of the decade.

What's your problem Drog? Why do you have to be so neurotic all the time?

Fish have to swim, birds have to fly.

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

The last factor wasn't the least. The game simply didn't look good enough to have a fighting chance. It would have failed because the graphics were horrible.

Gee, I wonder how Jeff Vogel lives off his games alone.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Established market? Servicing the starved Mac market? Barely making enough money to support 1.5 people? Jeff said many times that the first game that fails will put him out of business, which explains why he sticks with sequels and prefers to make more of the same (although in all fairness, his "the same" is pretty damn good).

 

[Fat Dragon]

Damn VD, what exactly did you do to give Drog such a high level of radioactive butthurt?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I admitted that I didn't see much difference between Arcanum's mirrored and non-mirrored sprites, which he restored. There was much butthurt in that epic thread.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In what way Arcanum is better then Fallout, VD?

Yes, I'm curious about why you seem to think Arcanum is superior to Fallout too.

Fallout is a better game in many aspects (atmosphere, art direction, combat, animations, character system, flow, etc), but Arcanum is a better role-playing game.

Why? More dialogues, more skill checks, more choices, more consequences, more multiple solutions, more paths, more and better developed party members, more double-crossing, world reactivity, etc. Basically, Arcanum gives you a lot more options, which to me is what role-playing all about.

Let's compare starting towns, Shady Sands vs Shrouded Hills:

Shady Sands:

- help the farmer by telling him about crops rotation.
- bring scorpion tails to the doctor for XP and antidotes
- use an antidote on a poisoned guy
- save Tandi (a lot of options here: sneak, kill, barter, fist fight, threaten, disguise)
- stop the radscorpions (kill them or blow up the cave)


Shrouded Hills:

- bring pure ore to the blacksmith
- retrieve an amulet in exchange for important info; you can acquire the info in a different way and keep the amulet
- the haunted mine - long quest: you need to re-acquire the rights to the mine (which you can do in different ways) and then decide whom to give them to.
- pick a package for the enchanter
- destroy bridge materials

- destroy the steam engine: two options, if you don't kill the dwarf he will report you to the constable; can double-cross the quest giver, also will be asked to fix the engine if you destroy it, which will send you to another location.

- the bank quest - you'll be asked to help to rob a bank and if you agree you get a combination to the safe. If you do it, the town turns hostile. Or you can sneak inside during the night, use the combination, and either give the robber his half later or nothing at all. You can also promise him nothing and simply steal the combination. You can also rat him out. Alternatively, if you haven't agreed yet, you will be asked by Doc to defend the bank from the robbers.

- the bridge bandits - pay the toll, steal his key, kill them all, convince him to leave (a nice persuasion sequence which lets you kick him out, force him to pay you , and get enough info to unlock dialogue lines in another town), or do a quest for them.

- Ristezze imported goods - you can find out more about the ring from him: you can sell it to him (not many games can let you sell a quest item without screwing your game), you can pickpocket his key and go through his records, you can barter with him giving him one of two items that can be used in other quests, and I think there was a persuasion option as well.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Damn VD, what exactly did you do to give Drog such a high level of radioactive butthurt?

I don't think it has to do with VD alone, so much as Drog's apparent dislike of "neckbeard" indie game developers, and his outrage that a small group of programmers think they can make a full fledged marketable game.

I guess it's his way of saying, "I am a superior programmer and even I don't punch beyond my weight class, so why do you?"...

Or something like that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Read that sprite thread.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It was the X-box generations first RPG. That's the conclusion I've come to over the years. It certainly doesn't excel in story, combat or choices, even within Biowares own catalog. It could also have something to do with half the planet being Star Wars fans as well.

Just like FF7 for the Playstation.

Same shit

 

[Volourn]

"It looks like someone doesn't understand what the word "focus" means.

Btw, Roy does remind me of a certain butthurt poster here, who also liked to talk about sprites a lot. Some posts are nearly identical."

FFS He skooled you there. That's why you are so butthurt. FFS AOD's originals graphics were acceptable by most people but ebcause of a few whiny crybabies you changed the hraphics upping the focus on it. FFS You made a choice that many develoeprs do so don't feela shamed but don't be hypocritical when other devs follow your lead.

ARC iss till not the best RPG of the decade btw. Like 99% of CRPGs it is way too limited in the REAL role-playing department.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

FFS AOD's originals graphics were acceptable by most people but ebcause of a few whiny crybabies you changed the hraphics upping the focus on it. FFS You made a choice that many develoeprs do so don't feela shamed but don't be hypocritical when other devs follow your lead.

VD's original comment

if developers focus on gameplay instead of graphics for a change

meant he thinks that developers are focusing on graphics OVER gameplay. The fact that he chose a "better" graphics engine doesn't imply he put graphics ABOVE gameplay. It implies that (for already stated reasons) this graphics engine was preferable to the former.

So, not the same thing.

 

[Mastermind]

Er...if you were pissed off enough with vampirism to seek the cure, then you probably aren't going to want to become one again.

Some women go back to abusive husbands (and vice versa) even though they know it's not a good idea. Not everyone's rational. Someone could just get the urge to role-play a vampire or change their mind about it/ Also, when I first became a vampire I had no idea you gained more power by depriving yourself of blood, so the second time I did it i made sure to see if it was worth the trouble (it wasn't, and I had to do it with a different character).

example: At one point in the thieves guild questline you're asked to steal the staff of one of the big guys in the mages guild. Iirc, the questgiver didn't really bother to check if you're a mages guild member, and their membership isn't exactly a secret (unlike membership of the thieves guild). A guild specialized in gethering information should notice (and be worried) that their newest member may have conflicting loyalties.

This kind of stuff is already present, though it's the mages guild you would get in trouble with: if you get caught stealing from a fellow guild member, you are expelled from the guild (I know the system is built with a hatchet, but it's there). It's not fallout and it's obvious this kind of choice and consequence stuff has never really been a focus for ES games, but it's there.

 

[Mastermind]

Then there should be. Based on what character you have.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're a good character you're almost certainly not gonna be doing quests for the dark brotherhood or molag bal. The game doesn't artificially prevent you from doing it, but if you're role playing it should not be artificially preventing you from doing it. Either you're a good character or you've deluded yourself that you're good when in reality you're an opportunist who does whatever is told so he can get a shiny new weapon.

But of course, the character is completely unimportant in Oblivion because of level scaling.

It has EVERYTHING to do with role-playing, because there is no fucking point in developing your character if every little fucking creature in the world goes up in level with you. All sense of accomplishment if lost.

I've played Oblivion extensively and this is not true at all. A 1st level character and a 40th level character play very differently. It's true that because of the level scaling most high level battles are harder than low level battles, but that's only if you don't know what you're doing or if you did not develop your character well. I find playing a pure high level mage a blast with many opportunities to use new tactics that are not available to a low level or low skill character. I could've used a mod to remove level scaling if I wanted to, but I didn't because I found it more desirable compared to how ridiculously boring and easy Morrowind got once you had godlike skills and equipment.

Unless you consider accomplishments picking up all the flowers in the game or whatever the fuck else Bethards think role-playing is.

I consider getting through kvatch at level 40 without any of the woefully ill equipped legion soldiers you have with you dying to be a considerable accomplishment.

Why would you want to get back to it once you're cured, then?

Because people are not static entities. You could get tired of it at one point and want to do it again at some point in the future.

Why would you want to become a vampire, then?

Role playing. Some people might even like it. I find the sun damage annoying but others might not care about it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"It looks like someone doesn't understand what the word "focus" means.

Btw, Roy does remind me of a certain butthurt poster here, who also liked to talk about sprites a lot. Some posts are nearly identical."

FFS He skooled you there. That's why you are so butthurt. FFS AOD's originals graphics were acceptable by most people but ebcause of a few whiny crybabies you changed the hraphics upping the focus on it. FFS You made a choice that many develoeprs do so don't feela shamed but don't be hypocritical when other devs follow your lead.

ARC iss till not the best RPG of the decade btw. Like 99% of CRPGs it is way too limited in the REAL role-playing department.

There is nothing wrong with wishing to design (or to play) a game that looks good. It becomes a problem only when the focus is on graphics, i.e. when a game doesn't offer anything other than pretty visuals.

Crysis, for example, was such a game. It was clear that all the effort was put into graphics and that the actual gameplay wasn't given much thought. "Gameplay? Well, surely gamers would love to play such a beautiful game, wouldn't they?" Or Oblivion where the 3 main features were the overhyped soil erosion, virtual forests, and "Patrick Stewart!!!" Does this have to be explained, Volly?

Compare Bioshock to System Shock. See the difference? One is ugly is fuck but has great gameplay. The other has great visuals and art direction, but doesn't really have much more than that.

You and Roy read my original statement as "why developers even bother making graphics; ascii rulez!", which isn't what I said at all.

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

sprites sprites lawl remember how I trolled him that was grate sprites sprites xD xD

When VD knows he's losing an argument he starts bringing up unrelated shit and slinging personal attacks.

Regardless, I stopped caring about Arcanum and its sprites a long time ago. Try something new.

The point still stands, you're being hypocritical about the importance of graphics.