RPG of the Decade - Developers' Choice

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

Or Oblivion where the 3 main features were the overhyped soil erosion, virtual forests, and "Patrick Stewart!!!

So? The TES character system is still more complex than what Fallout and Arcanum had to offer. No dialog skill checks for storyfags, though.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

The point still stands, you're being hypocritical about the importance of graphics.

I'm afraid this is incorrect. VD only ever criticized disproportionate emphasis on graphics on part of modern developers, not attention to or the importance of graphics per se. It would be hypocritical of him to dedicate the majority of his resources to graphics improvement (buying models, hiring more 3D/texture artists, learning to model himself, etc.), but how does merely switching to the TGE (which was hardly state-of-the-art even at the time he picked it) contradict anything he said?

By the way, Drog, I was wondering -- why not try your hand at creating an actual game (or a total conversion mod)? It's not as if you lack the skills or the time, if the numbert of your posts here is any indication.

 

[Vault Dweller]

sprites sprites lawl remember how I trolled him that was grate sprites sprites xD xD

When VD knows he's losing an argument he starts bringing up unrelated shit and slinging personal attacks.

Losing an argument? To you, Drog?

The point still stands, you're being hypocritical about the importance of graphics.

In what ways? I've always praised good graphics and I don't think that there is a single player who would prefer bad/mediocre graphics to good ones, if everything else is equal. The problem, which was often discussed at the Codex, is that at some point great graphics started replacing gameplay. Bethesda, for example, has a shitload of artists but not a single good writer:

"Dialogue wasn't a battle we wanted to pick. There were other things that were more important for us to spend time and energy on… we just don't have unlimited monkeys and typewriters." - Pete Hines.

Anyway...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Or Oblivion where the 3 main features were the overhyped soil erosion, virtual forests, and "Patrick Stewart!!!

So? The TES character system is still more complex than what Fallout and Arcanum had to offer.

In which ways?

You have 8 stats and 21 skills. Skills increase with use and could be trained, and since money isn't an issue in the game, it's relatively easy to max or greatly increase all skills and stats, becoming a master of all trades. The to-hit rolls (part of the character system) were removed in Oblivion, so even increasing combat skills is pointless (you do less damage if your skill is lower, but magical damage from enchantments can easily compensate for that). Where is the complexity?

No dialog skill checks for storyfags, though.

It's called role-playing, Drog.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The to-hit rolls (part of the character system) were removed in Oblivion, so even increasing combat skills is pointless (you do less damage if your skill is lower, but magical damage from enchantments can easily compensate for that).

You get perks, like
-high sneak ups the sneak attack damage,
-high marksman gives your arrows paralyzing capability,
-high blade/blunt gives you acces to spinning / charged attacks,
-high destruction (and other schools too) gives yoiu access to better spells.
-high acrobatics lets you attack while jumping

etc. Some of these can be compensated by spells, but Fortifying spells don't give you the related perks, just the raw damage.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean that you shouldn't be able to solve certain quests because of your stats/skills. Not because you pretend to be good, evil or whatever the fuck.

That is role-playing. This:

If you're a good character you're almost certainly not gonna be doing quests for the dark brotherhood or molag bal. Either you're a good character or you've deluded yourself that you're good when in reality you're an opportunist who does whatever is told so he can get a shiny new weapon.

is LARPing.

The game doesn't artificially prevent you from doing it,

Oh, you got me there. Artificially. Why does it have to be artificially? YOU are artificially setting limits with your "good" and "evil" characters.
How about doing it naturally? Pissing off some faction by working for an opposite one is not artificial, it's common sense.
But instead you get to the leader of all the factions.. fuck, that's monumentally stupid.

I could've used a mod to remove level scaling if I wanted to, but I didn't because I found it more desirable compared to how ridiculously boring and easy Morrowind got once you had godlike skills and equipment.

That's simply bad balance, and what's the easiest way to skip balancing the game? Throw in level-scaling.

So? The TES character system is still more complex than what Fallout and Arcanum had to offer.

Even if it was, too bad that it's completely pointless. The game plays like a shooter anyway.

Seriously, how about you think before letting your rage against the Codex get the best of you. You can't possible be this stupid, can you?

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

Skills increase with use and could be trained, and since money isn't an issue in the game, it's relatively easy to max or greatly increase all skills and stats, becoming a master of all trades.

You can train only 5 times per level in Oblivion, so you can't max out all your skills that way.

The to-hit rolls (part of the character system) were removed in Oblivion, so even increasing combat skills is pointless (you do less damage if your skill is lower, but magical damage from enchantments can easily compensate for that).

Each skill in Oblivion has 4 (well 5 with Novice) levels. You start as Novice and become Apprentice at 25, Journeyman at 50, Expert at 75 and Master at 100. You get a perk at each new level. E.g. a Journeyman of Blade can do a disarming power attack, a Master of Acrobatics can jump off the water, an Expert of Armorer can repair items to 125% thus improving their usefulness. Spells also have level requirements, you won't be able to summon a Xivilai (a Master spell) at an Expert level of Conjuration, no matter how much Magicka do you have. BTW, the TES spell system is probably one of the most complex in cRPGs.

Now compare this to Fallout where increasing skills only meant a higher rate of success. Not to mention a big number of junk skills in Fallout 1/2 (You admitted this yourself in one of the recent threads).

 

[Vault Dweller]

The to-hit rolls (part of the character system) were removed in Oblivion, so even increasing combat skills is pointless (you do less damage if your skill is lower, but magical damage from enchantments can easily compensate for that).

You get perks, like
-high sneak ups the sneak attack damage,
-high marksman gives your arrows paralyzing capability,
-high blade/blunt gives you acces to spinning / charged attacks,
-high destruction (and other schools too) gives yoiu access to better spells.
-high acrobatics lets you attack while jumping.

Well...

Technically, these aren't perks, but automatically granted abilities, which are no different from, say, DnD rogue getting extra 1d6 backstab damage every 2 levels. So, Oblivion perks like:

* A Novice does a basic power attack with a damage bonus (2.5 times more damage) in all directions.
* An Apprentice gains damage bonuses with a Mastery Standing Power Attack (3 times more damage).
* A Journeyman gains the Mastery Left and Right Power Attacks, which do 2.5 times more damage and have a 5% chance to disarm.
* An Expert gains a Mastery Backwards Power Attack, which does 2.5 times more damage and has a 5% chance of a knockdown.
* A Master gains a Mastery Forward Power Attack, which does 2.5 times more damage with a 5% chance to paralyze.

...can not be compared to the Fallout perks or even Arcanum perks:

"Melee Apprentice – the Speed of the Character with a melee weapon is increased by 5
Melee Expert – the Character is unaffected by lighting penalties
Melee Master – the Character cannot critically fail with a melee weapon"

Backstab Apprentice – a successful rear attack upon an unaware opponent will bypass his armor
Backstab Expert – the Character may backstab with swords and axes as well as daggers
Backstab Master – the Character gains an enormous increase to his chance of scoring a critical success "

As for high magic skills giving you access to more powerful spells, this is such a basic design that it's hardly worth mentioning.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yeah, it's nothing big, but it's certainly something that makes leveling the skills not pointless.

If you're a good character you're almost certainly not gonna be doing quests for the dark brotherhood or molag bal. Either you're a good character or you've deluded yourself that you're good when in reality you're an opportunist who does whatever is told so he can get a shiny new weapon.

is LARPing.

No more than doing an evil playthrough in Fallout, for example.

Oh, you got me there. Artificially. Why does it have to be artificially? YOU are artificially setting limits with your "good" and "evil" characters.
How about doing it naturally? Pissing off some faction by working for an opposite one is not artificial, it's common sense.
But instead you get to the leader of all the factions.. fuck, that's monumentally stupid.

In Oblivion at least, there are no opposing factions. There's the Blackwood company (opposed to the Fighter's Guild), the necromancers (I guess. The game makes it clear the mages hate the necros now, but they aren't a proper faction) and the Dark Brotherhood (which isn't really opposed to the Thieves Guild, but the thief guy that recruits you says they "don't kill people on the job, unlike the dark brotherhood"), but they aren't joinable.

The problem is that your character can become so obscenely strong as to become leader of all of them (and the requirements for joining are really low, at that)

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

Backstab Apprentice – a successful rear attack upon an unaware opponent will bypass his armor
Backstab Expert – the Character may backstab with swords and axes as well as daggers
Backstab Master – the Character gains an enormous increase to his chance of scoring a critical success

This is very similar to Oblivion's Sneak:
* A Novice gains a 4x damage bonus for one-handed weapon and hand-to-hand attacks, and a 2x damage for marksman attacks, when undetected.
* An Apprentice gains a 6x damage bonus for one-handed weapon and hand-to-hand attacks, and a 3x damage bonus for marksman attacks, when undetected.
* A Journeyman receives no penalty to his chance of detection while sneaking for the weight of his boots.
* An Expert receives no penalty to his chance of detection for running while sneaking.
* The attack of a Master on an opponent ignores the opponent's armor rating as long as the player is undetected.

Also, a few more:
Mercantile:
# The gold received by a Novice for goods is reduced because of wear.
# An Apprentice no longer has prices reduced due to wear.
# A Journeyman can sell any goods to any vendor.
# An Expert can invest money in a shop to permanently increase the shop's available gold by 500.
# For a Master:
* All shops in the world have 500 more gold for barter (this is independent of investing in a shop).
* All transactions with all shopkeepers can be done at a glorious 100/100 ratio (buy and sell items at base cost);

Armorer:
# A Novice (armorer < 25) cannot repair magic items.
# For an Apprentice (armorer 25-49), repair hammers last twice as long. An apprentice of Armorer still cannot repair magic items.
# A Journeyman (armorer 50-74) can now repair magic items.
# An Expert (armorer 75-99) can repair items beyond their highest condition (to 125%). Expert-improved weapons do extra damage, and Expert-improved armor protects more.
# A Master (armorer 100) never breaks repair hammers; one hammer lasts a lifetime.

Block:
* A Novice is fatigued by blocking, and hand-to-hand blocking against weapons has no effect
* An Apprentice is no longer fatigued by blocking
* A Journeyman's shield or weapon is no longer damaged when he/she blocks, and opponents may recoil when blocking with hand-to-hand
* An Expert blocking with shield has a 25% chance to do a knockback counterattack, staggering the enemy if the shield blow connects
* A Master blocking with a shield has an additional 5% chance of disarming the enemy with a successful knockback counterattack

 

[Vault Dweller]

Skills increase with use and could be trained, and since money isn't an issue in the game, it's relatively easy to max or greatly increase all skills and stats, becoming a master of all trades.

You can train only 5 times per level in Oblivion, so you can't max out all your skills that way.

5 times per level? That's deep, bro.

Now let's reread what I said together:

"Skills increase with use and could be trained, and since money isn't an issue in the game, it's relatively easy to max or greatly increase all skills and stats, becoming a master of all trades."

Let me explain what it means. Most systems where skills increase with use can be easily abused, as nothing prevents you from casting spells all day long or attacking easy foes with low damage weapons (which would raise the weapon, the armor, and the block skills at the same time), but because even this is apparently too much work, there are trainers, which make it even easier. Whether or not you can only train 3, 5, or 7 times PER LEVEL doesn't make any significant difference.

Each skill in Oblivion has 4 (well 5 with Novice) levels. You start as Novice and become Apprentice at 25, Journeyman at 50, Expert at 75 and Master at 100. You get a perk at each new level. E.g. a Journeyman of Blade can do a disarming power attack, a Master of Acrobatics can jump off the water, an Expert of Armorer can repair items to 125% thus improving their usefulness.

And?

Each skill in Arcanum has 3 levels. You start as a Novice and then can become Apprentice, Expert, and Master. You get a perk at each new level. E.g. a Haggle Master can get merchants to sell the "not for sale" merchandise, whereas Oblivion's Haggle Mastery increases all stores cash by 500 bucks. How fucking awesome is that?

Spells also have level requirements...

Brilliant stuff. How do they come with such interesting and deep design ideas, do you know?

BTW, the TES spell system is probably one of the most complex in cRPGs.

Probably not, but that's a story for another day.

 

[Mastermind]

[
In which ways?

Most oblivion skills are useful. Most of fallout's are of marginal use at best. I'd rather have a system that lets you max everything and the skills are mostly useful instead of a system that only lets you max a handful of skills but since more than half the skills are a waste of code, you're just as well off anyway.

You have 8 stats and 21 skills. Skills increase with use and could be trained, and since money isn't an issue in the game, it's relatively easy to max or greatly increase all skills and stats, becoming a master of all trades.

This is not that different from fallout where operations, Gifted and the general uselessness of charisma (and to a lesser extent, endurance and strength) meant you could max everything you needed to max anyway, and mostly do it before the game even started. Hell, even if it was not possible to get a plasma rifle and power armor without firing a single shot, you can use books to boost your small guns skill and get yourself through the early game without having to make the difficult choice of whether to tag and invest level-up points in small guns or not.

The to-hit rolls (part of the character system) were removed in Oblivion, so even increasing combat skills is pointless (you do less damage if your skill is lower, but magical damage from enchantments can easily compensate for that).

i agree that oblivion is poorly balanced in terms of melee (and archery for that matter), but it does not make it less or just as complex. Fallout's melee was far less complicated. You just got close to the enemy and clicked on him. There's no strategy whatsoever to its use (other than reload the game if the skill sucks and you miss one time too many). Whereas in oblivion you need to dodge attacks yourself, block/parry if you can't and counter-attack when you get the chance. Won't burn any braincells playing either one but there's a little more to do in melee when playing oblivion.

Where is the complexity?

The magic and alchemy system for starters. Nothing in fallout comes even remotely close to either one. Fallout's combat had little to no strategy to it whatsoever. You could either waste enemies in one or two shots or keep reloading the game until you got a few lucky eyeshots or grenade tosses and wasted a considerably stronger enemy than you are.

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

Let me explain what it means. Most systems where skills increase with use can be easily abused, as nothing prevents you from casting spells all day long or attacking easy foes with low damage weapons (which would raise the weapon, the armor, and the block skills at the same time), but because even this is apparently too much work, there are trainers, which make it even easier. Whether or not you can only train 3, 5, or 7 times PER LEVEL doesn't make any significant difference.

It does. In Morrowind you could just buy your way to godhood, but it's not possible in Oblivion. And increasing your minor unspecialized skills manually is VERY tedious and you'll get bored very fast.

BTW, the TES spell system is probably one of the most complex in cRPGs.

Probably not, but that's a story for another day.

ORLY? Name a more flexible system.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This is very similar to Oblivion's Sneak...

It is, but didn't you claim that the Oblivion system is "still more complex than what Fallout and Arcanum had to offer."?

Btw, missed this one:

Now compare this to Fallout where increasing skills only meant a higher rate of success. Not to mention a big number of junk skills in Fallout 1/2 (You admitted this yourself in one of the recent threads).

Fallout had a much better and deeper perk system. While you weren't granted perks for increasing skills, you were able to pick perks that fit your character better from a fairly large pool, which is an infinitely better design.

Useless skills? Sure, some skills in Fallout were useless, but Oblivion suffered from the same problem. Was Mercantile a handy skill? Speechcraft? Hand to Hand? Athletics was useful only because raising it was super easy and moving was too slow without it.

 

[Mastermind]

I mean that you shouldn't be able to solve certain quests because of your stats/skills. Not because you pretend to be good, evil or whatever the fuck.

Good luck finishing the thieves guild without any stealth.

Oh, you got me there. Artificially. Why does it have to be artificially?

Because games are an artificial product. You can't just make a game and let it naturally do one thing or another. You have to program it in. In this case, you would have to shove conflict between four factions that have nothing to do with each other just so you can get your choice and consequence rocks off.

YOU are artificially setting limits with your "good" and "evil" characters.

Yes. That's role playing.

How about doing it naturally? Pissing off some faction by working for an opposite one is not artificial, it's common sense.

It's artificial if there is no rational reason to piss off a faction by working for another. There are several major factions in oblivion, but not all are playable. of the playable ones, there is little to no conflict. Someone mentioned a thieves guild to steal a mage's staff, which would get you kicked out of the mages' guild if caught, but for the most part the guilds have no interaction with each other nor do they have a reason to have any interaction with each other.

That's simply bad balance, and what's the easiest way to skip balancing the game? Throw in level-scaling.

Indeed. But it's hardly game breaking like so many of the powergamers here think it is.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

And?

Each skill in Arcanum has 3 levels. You start as a Novice and then can become Apprentice, Expert, and Master. You get a perk at each new level. E.g. a Haggle Master can get merchants to sell the "not for sale" merchandise, whereas Oblivion's Haggle Mastery increases all stores cash by 500 bucks. How fucking awesome is that?

about this awesome

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivionercantile

A Journeyman can sell any goods to any vendor.
Vendors can also sell any goods to a Journeyman of Mercantile. This unlocks a few unique items carried by merchants who don't otherwise sell items of their type.

 

[FeelTheRads]

No more than doing an evil playthrough in Fallout, for example.

Um.. no. Because in Fallout your actions usually have repercussions. Btw, isn't repercussions a so much better word that consequences?

Anyway, let's take Killian vs Gizmo. It's one or the other. You can't do both.
And if I'm not mistaken, if you kill Gizmo (or was it Killian? somebody maybe could help me here) you will close some venues later on.

In short, it's not "LOL I"M GOOD CHARACTUR I DUNT DO THIS QUEST". You may find that you can't do it based on your actions, whereas in Oblivion you just set the rules yourself, thus you LARP.

 

[Mastermind]

Fallout had a much better and deeper perk system. While you weren't granted perks for increasing skills, you were able to pick perks that fit your character better from a fairly large pool, which is an infinitely better design.

The design is better, but the application is far worse, because just like with skills, most perks are also useless.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Btw, isn't repercussions a so much better word that consequences?

Doom: Repercussions of Evil

Doom: Consequences of Evil

sort of...but "C&R" isn't as catchy as "C&C"

 

[-=DarlSephiroth666=-]

This is very similar to Oblivion's Sneak...

It is, but didn't you claim that the Oblivion system is "still more complex than what Fallout and Arcanum had to offer."?

Btw, missed this one:

Now compare this to Fallout where increasing skills only meant a higher rate of success. Not to mention a big number of junk skills in Fallout 1/2 (You admitted this yourself in one of the recent threads).

Fallout had a much better and deeper perk system. While you weren't granted perks for increasing skills, you were able to pick perks that fit your character better from a fairly large pool, which is an infinitely better design.

Fallout's perks were very badly balanced. Most were simply worthless, and some were overpowered (ActionBoy, Sniper, etc).

Useless skills? Sure, some skills in Fallout were useless, but Oblivion suffered from the same problem. Was Mercantile a handy skill?

Yes. More important at low levels, though.

Speechcraft?

Yes, for the characters without Illusion. There are many quests where you have to raise an NPC's disposition to persuade him/her to do something for you.

Hand to Hand?

Why not?

 

[Vault Dweller]

And?

Each skill in Arcanum has 3 levels. You start as a Novice and then can become Apprentice, Expert, and Master. You get a perk at each new level. E.g. a Haggle Master can get merchants to sell the "not for sale" merchandise, whereas Oblivion's Haggle Mastery increases all stores cash by 500 bucks. How fucking awesome is that?

about this awesome

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivionercantile

A Journeyman can sell any goods to any vendor.
Vendors can also sell any goods to a Journeyman of Mercantile. This unlocks a few unique items carried by merchants who don't otherwise sell items of their type.

Really? Is it actually in the game? What unique items it unlocks?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Good luck finishing the thieves guild without any stealth.

Yeah, well, it was stated already that you can get all skills pretty easy. Thus, broken character system too.

Yes. That's role playing.

No, that's LARPing. If the game doesn't respond to your choices then it's all in your head.

Pretty much like how in Oblivion you can also LARP a fighter or a mage or whatever the fuck. Since you can get all skills what the fuck stops you from doing it? Oh you want to play pretend. Mkay, but don't call it role-playing. There have to be limits.

 

[Mastermind]

And?

Each skill in Arcanum has 3 levels. You start as a Novice and then can become Apprentice, Expert, and Master. You get a perk at each new level. E.g. a Haggle Master can get merchants to sell the "not for sale" merchandise, whereas Oblivion's Haggle Mastery increases all stores cash by 500 bucks. How fucking awesome is that?

about this awesome

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivionercantile

A Journeyman can sell any goods to any vendor.
Vendors can also sell any goods to a Journeyman of Mercantile. This unlocks a few unique items carried by merchants who don't otherwise sell items of their type.

Really? Is it actually in the game? What unique items it unlocks?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Unique_Items

ctrl+f "least 50"

 

[Silellak]

People on the Codex defending Oblivion.

Whelp, now I've officially seen it all.

Indeed. But it's hardly game breaking like so many of the powergamers here think it is.

It's game breaking because it renders the discussion here entirely pointless. It doesn't matter how well-developed your character system is or how many unique items you can buy with X points in Y skill if the entire game is a cake-walk because everything is scaled exactly to your level.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Really? Is it actually in the game? What unique items it unlocks?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Unique_Items

You can find some examples, like

Boots of the Swift Merchant

Seed-Neeus at Northern Goods and Trade, Chorrol


(note that your Mercantile skill must be at least 50 to be able to purchase this; without the Journeyman-level Mercantile perk, Seed-Neeus does not sell armor)

----------

People on the Codex defending Oblivion.

Whelp, now I've officially seen it all.

Just being fair - some people didn't play the game or didn't pay much attention while playing, so some things that are in the game weren't noticed.