Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[Infinitron]

The armor system resulted in making characters invincible near the end of the game unless an armor-bypassing critical hit was scored, which often resulted in massive injuries/death.
...
I don't think anyone is arguing that AC isn't an abstraction, but I would argue that Fallout/SPECIAL's system of abstracting armor is unintuitive and forces characters to always adopt the heaviest armor unless they want to intentionally handicap themselves.

If I were coming to Fallout for the first time, my expectation would be that metal, Tesla, and power armor greatly increase protection but reduce my stealth abilities and my overall mobility. They're bulky, heavy suits of armor. I understand that PA is motorized, but I've always believed that the actuators in PA are there simply to give the person the great strength required to wear it, not to enhance movement speed and grace above and beyond their normal capabilities.

I would expect the leather and combat armors to protect me less, but to give few penalties to my stealth abilities or to my movement-oriented stats.

If we think of an attacker's skill check as determining their ability to hit a target of a certain size moving at a certain speed at a certain range, the properties of the target certainly factor into that calculation. I just don't think that the durability of the armor should have any positive effect on it.

But in Fallout, this isn't the case. Heavier armor both increases AC and increases damage reduction. It also has no penalty on stealth skills.

Simulationist detected.

Josh has always been inspired by real life for equipment design, I think. See: Gun porn in FO:NV. It's the way character stats affect the performance of said equipment that's more gamey.

It's a dichotomy that seems to work pretty well. Character attributes are abstractions, equipment is real.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Josh has always been inspired by real life for equipment design, I think. See: Gun porn in FO:NV. It's the way character stats affect the performance of said equipment that's more gamey.

It's a dichotomy that seems to work pretty well. Character attributes are abstractions, equipment is real.

Magic hats that give bonus to skills/attributes in a post-apocalyptic setting are real/make sense?

 

[Infinitron]

Josh has always been inspired by real life for equipment design, I think. See: Gun porn in FO:NV. It's the way character stats affect the performance of said equipment that's more gamey.

It's a dichotomy that seems to work pretty well. Character attributes are abstractions, equipment is real.

Magic hats that give bonus to skills/attributes in a post-apocalyptic setting are real/make sense?

Well, weapons and body armor, anyway.

 

[Irenaeus]

And that's why F:NV is shit compared to PoE

 

[mastroego]

It's cute to see Josh talking about intuitiveness after making an attribute system in which optimally built mages are extremely strong and dexterous while fighters who rush into the thick of things are wise, charismatic and have great eyesight.

Lololololololol
though eyesight might help with aiming and whatnot

 

[zero29]

By the end of the game, they're harder to kill than a lot of D&D characters.

 

[Lurker King]

This doesn't result in good gameplay.

I prefer the gameplay of FO, FO2 over F:NV and PoE anyday.

Now you know which game has (what seems to me) sensible armor systems? Underrail.

And Age of Decadence. Which makes me wonder. Why do I have the impression that some people talk about the qualities of Underrail as if Age of Decadence didn’t exist? I think this double standard attitude occurs because VD is a familiar codexer posting here everyday. You know, like in a “my-neighbor-couldn’t-have-won-the-Nobel-syndrome”. If you know that person in a day-to-day basis, he can’t be that important. Or maybe it is simply butthurt.

 

[Ninjerk]

Any way to tell when that was posted? The page source has an address with "/1999/" in it, but that's the only obvious reference to a year with potential (you can't access any thread associated with it from that page).

Seems he was arrogant before he had done anything to speak of, no?

I'm not surprised to read that Josh was proving himself an arrogant prick and ignorant of tabletop mechanics as far back as a decade ago. In most systems featuring mundane (as in no built-in force fields, displacement fields, etc.) armor mechanics that incorporate both damage reductions and to-hit difficulty modifiers, the to-hit modifiers simulate and abstract an attack being stopped by the armor in its entirety.

It's especially funny to see him badmouth GURPS in light of his recent "magnum opus."

It's funny to see you guys calling Sawyer an arrogant prick for critically discussing RPG mechanics ten years ago, even better that you note "before he had done anything to speak of." The irony is apparently lost on both of you as you yourselves spend years, you know, critically discussing and insulting RPG mechanics, and haven't made anything to prove you can do it better than the systems you insult.

To my recollection, I've never suggested Todd Howard, Ken Levine, et al. aren't fit to live because I disagree with their armor abstractions (or Sawyer for that matter), neither have I decided that someone who doesn't play the way I think they should is worth my contempt. So yes, the irony is lost, wasted in fact, on me.

EDIT: For that matter I don't think I've called for Sawyer's head either. I think he has some asinine ideas WRT gameplay, though.

 

[Blaine]

And Age of Decadence. Which makes me wonder. Why do I have the impression that some people talk about the qualities of Underrail as if Age of Decadence didn’t exist? I think this double standard attitude occurs because VD is a familiar codexer posting here everyday. You know, like in a “my-neighbor-couldn’t-have-won-the-Nobel-syndrome”. If you know that person in a day-to-day basis, he can’t be that important. Or maybe it is simply butthurt.

I wonder what it's like to be this passive-aggressive? Talking about butthurt when you're pre-upset by your own assumption that people omitted AoD from a conversation on purpose, and additionally must therefore have it out for Vault Dweller... come on, now. That's quite a leap. Arguing about which game is superior is one thing, but you're really taking it to the next level, here.

Each game has its strengths and weaknesses, some of which are similar. I'm much more familiar with Underrail, mainly because I've chosen to play it extensively before release. This will ultimately turn out to be a good thing, because the writing in Underrail is quiite messy, and I intend to blow up the Underrail forums with typo corrections before the game is released.

It doesn't need to be a contest unless you want it to be. You could, y'know, add AoD to the conversation rather than wallowing in a conspiracy theory about how people are ignoring it on purpose.

 

[Lurker King]

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Roguey.

 

[Blaine]

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Roguey.

It doesn't really matter whom you were referring to. I explained my position in case you had me in mind, because you've squabbled with me about AoD before. In that instance, you boldly proclaimed that AoD is better than Underrail in almost every way, which I think is objectively ludicrous, but whatever.

 

[Roguey]

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Roguey.

I didn't like the beta from years ago, so I've scrubbed the entire thing from my memory. But yes, now that you're reminded me, I remember the sensible armor.

 

[Immortal]

This doesn't result in good gameplay.

I prefer the gameplay of FO, FO2 over F:NV and PoE anyday.

Now you know which game has (what seems to me) sensible armor systems? Underrail.

And Age of Decadence. Which makes me wonder. Why do I have the impression that some people talk about the qualities of Underrail as if Age of Decadence didn’t exist? I think this double standard attitude occurs because VD is a familiar codexer posting here everyday. You know, like in a “my-neighbor-couldn’t-have-won-the-Nobel-syndrome”. If you know that person in a day-to-day basis, he can’t be that important. Or maybe it is simply butthurt.

Nobody is allowed to talk about games unless we list VD's game because this is the codex and he's a member of the codex and if we don't talk about his game then we are butt hurt.. or something..

Spoiler

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Why do I have the impression that some people talk about the qualities of Underrail as if Age of Decadence didn’t exist? I think this double standard attitude occurs because VD is a familiar codexer posting here everyday. You know, like in a “my-neighbor-couldn’t-have-won-the-Nobel-syndrome”. If you know that person in a day-to-day basis, he can’t be that important. Or maybe it is simply butthurt.

Because AoD is wayyyyy more niche, that's why. But the people interested in what AoD is, including myself, are pretty damn into it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I'm not surprised to read that Josh was proving himself an arrogant prick and ignorant of tabletop mechanics as far back as a decade ago.

Oh, you mean genius game designer Sawyer who's games are so genius only a select few understand they're genius and not shit and if they're shit it's always the publisher's/player's/tester's/everybody else's but his fault? Yeah, what a surprise he was always an arrogant prick.

 

[Average Manatee]

The armor system resulted in making characters invincible near the end of the game unless an armor-bypassing critical hit was scored, which often resulted in massive injuries/death.
...
I don't think anyone is arguing that AC isn't an abstraction, but I would argue that Fallout/SPECIAL's system of abstracting armor is unintuitive and forces characters to always adopt the heaviest armor unless they want to intentionally handicap themselves.

If I were coming to Fallout for the first time, my expectation would be that metal, Tesla, and power armor greatly increase protection but reduce my stealth abilities and my overall mobility. They're bulky, heavy suits of armor. I understand that PA is motorized, but I've always believed that the actuators in PA are there simply to give the person the great strength required to wear it, not to enhance movement speed and grace above and beyond their normal capabilities.

I would expect the leather and combat armors to protect me less, but to give few penalties to my stealth abilities or to my movement-oriented stats.

If we think of an attacker's skill check as determining their ability to hit a target of a certain size moving at a certain speed at a certain range, the properties of the target certainly factor into that calculation. I just don't think that the durability of the armor should have any positive effect on it.

But in Fallout, this isn't the case. Heavier armor both increases AC and increases damage reduction. It also has no penalty on stealth skills.

Simulationist detected.

Quite the opposite of a simulationist really. In real life people DO adopt the heaviest armor they can, armor ISN'T heavy enough or bulky enough to decrease mobility more than marginally, and a Power Armored soldier (described as "a walking tank") SHOULD be invulnerable to most small arms fire that doesn't hit a vulnerable location (nevermind that Fallout has several weapons with inherent weapon penetration anyway).

The only thing close to relevant is the potential penalties for stealth skills, but the stealth system was fairly opaque anyway and its debatable whether the stealth penalties should be applied to anything but power armor. Practically speaking you could just wear clothing over your armor if it was too shiny or something.

Also aside from the usual stuff about how AC != harder to hit but reflecting armor deflection, it bears pointing out that due to Fallout base chance to hit reaching well over 100% by level 2 or 3 for more characters, the main effect of AC is to reduce the chance of getting critically hit. Basic Enclave soldiers can have nearly 180% accuracy on their attacks, Power Armor does jack shit to stop them hitting you, it only matters if they are taking an inherent -60% to perform an aimed shot to your eyes.

 

[zero29]

...In real life people DO adopt the heaviest armor they can, armor ISN'T heavy enough or bulky enough to decrease mobility more than marginally,...

bonus points for rl pip boy

 

[Average Manatee]

That's a bomb disposal suit, we're talking small arms protection. If you compare this to Fallout, Combat Armor is probably underpowered and too light.

 

[zero29]

That's a bomb disposal suit, we're talking small arms protection...

well, it's got kevlar virtually everywhere for excellent fragmentation protection. but that's not what your point was: you claimed that the heaviest types of real life armor don't decrease mobility, so everyone just uses the one with the best protection. but i've never seen a kevlar roulade soldier on a battlefield, yet. armor is always a compromise between protection and usability, hell, even that bomb disposal suit is still a compromise. and that's what saywer misses in fallout, power armor is universally better than everything else, there's no compromise between protection and handling. btw, even the link you provided shows that you're wrong: the dragon skin provides "just" level iii protection, but the best performance standard for ballistic vests is level iv. so why do people use these dragon skin vests?

 

[Declinator]

Quite the opposite of a simulationist really. In real life people DO adopt the heaviest armor they can, armor ISN'T heavy enough or bulky enough to decrease mobility more than marginally.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine....myHasFewOptionstoLessenWeightofBodyArmor.aspx

As troops began to redeploy from Iraq to Afghanistan, many complained that the weight of the armor was not only uncomfortable and dangerous — because of the reduced mobility — but also was causing physical injuries such as stress fractures.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28483535/...at-still-seek-better-body-armor/#.VUtZhZPhvNw

The decision results from a survey of more than 1,000 Marines, many of whom reported that their flak jackets, which cost the Marine Corps more than $100 million, were too heavy and restrictive.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,92296,00.html

"Before you know it, they're going to get us injured because we're hauling too much weight and don't have enough mobility to maneuver in a fight from house to house," said Bain, who is assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment. "I think we're starting to go overboard on the armor."

 

[Average Manatee]

That's a bomb disposal suit, we're talking small arms protection...

well, it's got kevlar virtually everywhere for excellent fragmentation protection. but that's not what your point was: you claimed that the heaviest types of real life armor don't decrease mobility, so everyone just uses the one with the best protection. but i've never seen a kevlar roulade soldier on a battlefield, yet. armor is always a compromise between protection and usability, hell, even that bomb disposal suit is still a compromise. and that's what saywer misses in fallout, power armor is universally better than everything else, there's no compromise between protection and handling. btw, even the link you provided shows that you're wrong: the dragon skin provides "just" level iii protection, but the best performance standard for ballistic vests is level iv. so why do people use these dragon skin vests?

The best suitable to the situation. Soldiers aren't handling bombs, neither are they being shot at by .30-06 AP from point blank range. On the other hand, people in Fallout are regularly being shot at by weapons that go straight through everything weaker, so there's no reason to stay with leather armor or whatever. There are also cost issues and so forth in the way. As bloated as the US defense budget is, it can't justify dumping its entire inventory and spending another $3-5k per soldier every year someone comes out with a slightly better armor.

Quite the opposite of a simulationist really. In real life people DO adopt the heaviest armor they can, armor ISN'T heavy enough or bulky enough to decrease mobility more than marginally.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine....myHasFewOptionstoLessenWeightofBodyArmor.aspx

As troops began to redeploy from Iraq to Afghanistan, many complained that the weight of the armor was not only uncomfortable and dangerous — because of the reduced mobility — but also was causing physical injuries such as stress fractures.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28483535/...at-still-seek-better-body-armor/#.VUtZhZPhvNw

The decision results from a survey of more than 1,000 Marines, many of whom reported that their flak jackets, which cost the Marine Corps more than $100 million, were too heavy and restrictive.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,92296,00.html

"Before you know it, they're going to get us injured because we're hauling too much weight and don't have enough mobility to maneuver in a fight from house to house," said Bain, who is assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment. "I think we're starting to go overboard on the armor."

All this proves is that soldiers will complain about anything. Protip: the majority of soldiers have not been shot, if they were they wouldn't be complaining. If they encountered combat anywhere near as often as a Fallout character did, they wouldn't be caught dead wearing anything less than the best available.

Also as the links you provide suggest, armor is a small part of the weight. Soldiers can carry 100 lbs of other gear with them. Are you going to give encumbrance penalties for that too? Because that does make the 5-10 lbs added by vastly better armor pretty marginal, as I stated.

 

[Lord Andre]

I know it was mentioned way back in the thread but it triggers me so here it goes:

Choosing between 2 available abilities in combat is not a tactical decision, nor is reacting to an enemy action with an action of your own.

Tactics imply coordinated effort in order to obtain an advantage. Reacting to an action or taking an action is not tactics.

To the point: "tank and spank" is a tactic, choosing between 2 spells is not.

As for strategy versus tactics, they have the same principle but tactics imply concrete quantifiable actions and thus are limited in scope while strategy implies a large scope over an extended period of time and is defined through high-level directions or guidelines ending in an abstractly formulated goal.

TLDR: PoE does not have tactical combat because it only has 1, arguably 2, tactics: Tank and Spank & Alpha Strike.

 

[Arthandas]

Just out of curiosity, is there any non-Codex review that doesn't praise PoE as the next best thing since porn?

 

[Immortal]

Just out of curiosity, is there any non-Codex review that doesn't praise PoE as the next best thing since porn?

I doubt it.. Not in a world where this can happen:

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/dragon-age-inquisition/critic-reviews?dist=positive

 

[Eyestabber]

Just out of curiosity, is there any non-Codex review that doesn't praise PoE as the next best thing since porn?

I doubt it.. Not in a world where this can happen:

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/dragon-age-inquisition/critic-reviews?dist=positive

Do note that DA:I has a pretty low user score. PoE. however, stands at a confortable 8.5 last I checked.

Bottom line: non-codex are also capable of realizing how shitty the DA series is, but PoE hate is a Codex thing.