Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[Forest Dweller]

Looks like VD's review is going to be critical too. When that happens, critics of this review are going to be well and truly fucked.

I want to address this though.

Obsidian is a large company that used to spend a million bucks a month a few years back (maybe still does). It feeds over a hundred employees and is always a step away from lay offs. They survived because they've always played it safe and that's why they made a BG-like game and not Fallout or something cool and new and weird.

I expect Obsidian's talent to shine in the expansion packs, much like it always did, as that's the one (only?) arena where they can stop playing it safe and try new things.

This was true for their previous games with a traditional publisher, but I don't think you can use the same "excuse" or whatever for a Kickstarter game. The whole point of Kickstarter is that you don't HAVE to play it safe. You could really do whatever you want. Explain your product in the pitch video - if it succeeds, that tells you that your idea is profitable and you can go on developing the game with the knowledge that said development is already paid for; if it doesn't succeed, then you're short a couple of months on developing and pitching a game that needs to be scrapped and you can then go on to the next "safe" thing. The only real danger is if you don't plan well enough and end up asking for less than you need.

Likewise, when the game releases, all sales are pure profit, provided you asked for enough in the first place. And if it doesn't sell, you still haven't taken a "loss," because all the development was paid for. But honestly, if it gets enough backers to succeed, it's very unlikely that it will sell poorly when it finally releases.

In any case, it seems obvious that Obsidian felt like they needed to "play it safe" with Pillars of Eternity, releasing what is essentially a nostalgia cash-in. But if they believed that, I think they're disconnected from the reality of the situation. The new Torment actually received more in pledges than their own game despite being from an upstart developer; if that doesn't truly explain things, I don't know what will.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

In any case, it seems obvious that Obsidian felt like they needed to "play it safe" with Pillars of Eternity, releasing what is essentially a nostalgia cash-in. But if they believed that, I think they're disconnected from the reality of the situation. The new Torment actually received more in pledges than their own game despite being from an upstart developer; if that doesn't truly explain things, I don't know what will.

TTON opening pitch was far more thought out and they had the right to use the Torment name. Still I agree overall, OE should have pitched an isometric turn-based RPG in a weird setting which is far more suited to their strengths than RTWP DnD with a twist.

 

[Athelas]

Plus, the weird setting would explain why might determines your damage with a gun.

 

[Jasede]

Guns fire soul power, not bullets, just like bows. It's a magical land.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Guns fire soul power, not bullets, just like bows. It's a magical land.

Soul bullets.

 

[Grinning Reaper]

So, switching to a different weapon that does a different type of damage to which your enemy is more vulnerable, based on the composition of a group of enemies, isn't tactical response? Deciding which spells to use based on your enemies varying resistances isn't tactical response?

You switched weapons in combat? I did that once or twice, but generally switching weapons is a strategical thing that you do before combat. I generally used the same abilities and spells - debuff and damage. Rarely if ever did I deliberately use spells that targeted specific defenses because there aren't many enemies in the game that required doing that. Frankly the debuffs I had going kinda made it not matter what I attacked.

Switching weapons is punished by +2 second * recovery factor penalty

Deciding between damage and cc spells during combat depending on how the battle is going

I spammed the same shit every encounter after I got to level 4, didn't need to change strategies at all

or choosing to break engagement when it's worth it to do so

ROFL? Why would you do that? Sub-optimal play. The fact that you even needed to consider breaking engagement means you fucked up

aren't tactical responses as per your definition of tactical?

I suppose if you're bad at the game you might have to tactically respond more than if you don't many or any mistakes.

When mobs overwhelm or ignore my front-liners, which they sometimes do, I sometimes choose to disengage a squishy spellcaster and engage that enemy with a more hearty unit while my squishy retreats to a safe distance, because the damage from the disengagement attack is acceptable if it allows the unit to survive and continue contributing to the fight.

The hardest encounters that's not endgame is the Ogre in the cave on hardest difficulty, because he has a bunch of bear buddies. But that fight is optional anyway.

I took ZERO damage in that fight. When they weren't missing Eder, they were paralyzed or knocked down, also blind - GG.

So your clever comeback is to laugh at me for not playing through every combat encounter in the most optimal way imaginable? Brilliant. Not everyone spent hundreds of hours dissecting the beta.

Whatever, the name of the game is clearly deflection and repetition for you, keep on keeping on I suppose. I have to say that your argument that the game doesn't require any tactical responses, as long as you make no mistakes ever including anticipating the defenses of enemies (which you can't do before they're in your bestiary I should add), is pretty weak. Like I said, a broken record. What you're really saying is that you analyzed the combat, which you didn't like in the first place, to death and now it bores you. Shocking. That, combined with over-investing time and money in a game that you heaped tons of unreasonable and overly specific expectations on pretty much sums up your current attitude as far as I'm concerned.

 

[karnak]

Guns fire soul power, not bullets, just like bows. It's a magical land.

There's no power like magical power!

 

[Volrath]

Still I agree overall, OE should have pitched an isometric turn-based RPG in a weird setting which is far more suited to their strengths than RTWP DnD with a twist.

Bold claim: they wouldn't have received a third of the budget of what they got for PoE if they did this.

Don't forget Torment only announced it was going to use turn based combat long after that campaign was already over (or am I remembering this wrong?).

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Bold claim: they wouldn't have received a third of the budget of what they got for PoE if they did this.

Don't think it would have been that bad, OE has an established fanbase that would likely threw money at their kickstarter regardless of the type of game they're making (well except MMORPG and a shitty card game maybe). Hard to say how much of PoE money was due to BG/IE nostalgia and how much due to Obsidian name.

Don't forget Torment only announced it was going to use turn based combat long after that campaign was already over.

But the danger of it being turn-based was always there (they mentioned that there will be voting to decide the combat system and developer own preference for turn-based IIRC). Unless a lot of backers didn't pay attention and just assumed it would be RTWP because the original game was.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Looks like VD's review is going to be critical too.

'tis a mystary!

This was true for their previous games with a traditional publisher, but I don't think you can use the same "excuse" or whatever for a Kickstarter game. The whole point of Kickstarter is that you don't HAVE to play it safe.

But you do because KS is NOT about getting funded. It's about getting some money. See the difference? No? Let me explain. It takes a LOT more money than what you get on KS to make games. What you get is enough to get you started. Sure, 4 mil sounds like a lot of money but for a studio like Obsidian it's 6-8 months of work. They worked on the game for 2.5 years. Naturally, not all 100+ people and they have other projects, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game cost them twice as much if not more.

"[Atari] asked in 2007 if we wanted to do Baldur's Gate 3," Urquhart told Kotaku. "And I'm like 'Yes, if you guys are serious about it.' They were like, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'If you'll put a real budget behind it: it can't be $10 million, it needs to be $20 million, $25 million. If you really want to do this, then you need to put a real budget behind it."

You could really do whatever you want. Explain your product in the pitch video - if it succeeds, that tells you that your idea is profitable and you can go on developing the game with the knowledge that said development is already paid for; if it doesn't succeed, then you're short a couple of months on developing and pitching a game that needs to be scrapped and you can then go on to the next "safe" thing. The only real danger is if you don't plan well enough and end up asking for less than you need.

If Feargus asks for that real budget - 20-25 mil or even half of that, the project will never get funded. Hence the need to play it safe and grow that IP like a fragile flower.

 

[Seari]

It would have most def been less successful if it were TB.
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

 

[jewboy]

Not as many trash mobs as Dragon Age but still quite a lot. Not as popamole as Dragon age, but close. Not quite as appealing to casual players as Dragon Age, but still quite appealing and not too complicated for that demographic. Embrace and extend. PoE is really more of a sequel in spirit to Dragon Age: Origins. Again Obsidian playing catch up to their big brothers at Bioware. Remember the poll back during the Kickstarter where BG2, a Bioware game, beat out even PS:T? So the backers were mostly Bioware fans. Not BIS fans. So what could be more logical than giving the Bioware fans what they really wanted: a sequel in spirit to DA:O rather than one of the older Bioware games.

 

[tuluse]

'tis a mystary!


But you do because KS is NOT about getting funded. It's about getting some money. See the difference? No? Let me explain. It takes a LOT more money than what you get on KS to make games. What you get is enough to get you started. Sure, 4 mil sounds like a lot of money but for a studio like Obsidian it's 6-8 months of work. They worked on the game for 2.5 years. Naturally, not all 100+ people and they have other projects, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game cost them twice as much if not more.

"[Atari] asked in 2007 if we wanted to do Baldur's Gate 3," Urquhart told Kotaku. "And I'm like 'Yes, if you guys are serious about it.' They were like, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'If you'll put a real budget behind it: it can't be $10 million, it needs to be $20 million, $25 million. If you really want to do this, then you need to put a real budget behind it."


If Feargus asks for that real budget - 20-25 mil or even half of that, the project will never get funded. Hence the need to play it safe and grow that IP like a fragile flower.

According to Obsidian themselves, they put another million into the game (and got paradox to foot the physical goods bill), so 5 million total.

Which means 4 million is enough funding for a small-to-mid sized Obsidian team for 2 years.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

But you do because KS is NOT about getting funded. It's about getting some money. See the difference? No? Let me explain. It takes a LOT more money than what you get on KS to make games. What you get is enough to get you started. Sure, 4 mil sounds like a lot of money but for a studio like Obsidian it's 6-8 months of work. They worked on the game for 2.5 years. Naturally, not all 100+ people and they have other projects, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game cost them twice as much if not more.

"[Atari] asked in 2007 if we wanted to do Baldur's Gate 3," Urquhart told Kotaku. "And I'm like 'Yes, if you guys are serious about it.' They were like, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'If you'll put a real budget behind it: it can't be $10 million, it needs to be $20 million, $25 million. If you really want to do this, then you need to put a real budget behind it."


If Feargus asks for that real budget - 20-25 mil or even half of that, the project will never get funded. Hence the need to play it safe and grow that IP like a fragile flower.

You honestly think BG cost 25 million to be made, get real. Feargus was very likely talking about multiplatform, cinematic, fully voice acted game which was slowly becoming standard for RPG genre at the time.

I know you have this idea of BG series as mainstream action games but they're still very different to games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age in terms of what is expected.

 

[MRY]

The whole point of Kickstarter is that you don't HAVE to play it safe. You could really do whatever you want.

Just ask Tim Schafer! :D

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

"[Atari] asked in 2007 if we wanted to do Baldur's Gate 3," Urquhart told Kotaku. "And I'm like 'Yes, if you guys are serious about it.' They were like, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'If you'll put a real budget behind it: it can't be $10 million, it needs to be $20 million, $25 million. If you really want to do this, then you need to put a real budget behind it."

Feargus recently said that Unity completely changed the costs of a project like this, which I guess explains the figures Tuluse mentioned.

 

[MRY]

Which means 4 million is enough funding for a small-to-mid sized Obsidian team for 2 years.

May not account for overhead.

 

[Athelas]

I'm pretty sure a majority of the budget (i.e. more than half) went to the graphics/presentation regardless.

 

[Metatron]

PoE is far from a flawless game but this is like one of those edgy clickbait reviews of a smaller site you've never heard of but still aspires to be on Metacritic and is desperate for hits. Even including the THIS IS THEIR WORST GAME EVARRR!!!888!! sentence at the end cause you know most people who fall for the clickbait will just jump to the conclusion anyway.

 

[jewboy]

What I find interesting and encouraging is that Unity really was good enough to produce such nice visuals when sticking to 2D art. PoE may have boring combat but it's beautiful without having to spend tens of millions on the art budget. Wasteland 2 is ugly as hell, but PoE shows what is possible from a relatively low budget game. Maybe 3D really is too expensive.

 

[Irenaeus]

PoE is far from a flawless game but this is like one of those edgy clickbait reviews of a smaller site you've never heard of but still aspires to be on Metacritic and is desperate for hits. Even including the THIS IS THEIR WORST GAME EVARRR!!!888!! sentence at the end cause you know most people who fall for the clickbait will just jump to the conclusion anyway.

Agree with you and your brother Infinitron. This review is absurd and should never had been published. It's by retards for retards. Only works as trolling. Wow, fantastic accomplishment.

 

[Sensuki]

So your clever comeback is to laugh at me for not playing through every combat encounter in the most optimal way imaginable? Brilliant. Not everyone spent hundreds of hours dissecting the beta.

Whatever, the name of the game is clearly deflection and repetition for you, keep on keeping on I suppose. I have to say that your argument that the game doesn't require any tactical responses, as long as you make no mistakes ever including anticipating the defenses of enemies (which you can't do before they're in your bestiary I should add), is pretty weak. Like I said, a broken record. What you're really saying is that you analyzed the combat, which you didn't like in the first place, to death and now it bores you. Shocking. That, combined with over-investing time and money in a game that you heaped tons of unreasonable and overly specific expectations on pretty much sums up your current attitude as far as I'm concerned.

Nope, there are loads of people here who didn't play the beta as much as me and didn't even play the beta, that didn't bother to even learn the systems (I mean, look at Darth Roxor's review) that have exactly the same problem as I do. So I don't believe you can call me out on over-investing time in the game to learn how to play it well because quite frankly, it doesn't take much effort to play this game, the largest effort is in how well you can stomach the bad combat.

I didn't look at the bestiary once, btw. I didn't even mouse over enemy stats to see what they were, because you don't need to.

My complaints are very specific. There are two very important things that really pissed me off enough to stop playing the game, and both core problems with the game - the shit system design for combat, and the issues with the plot/story.

All of the other problems are forgivable for me. Had AT LEAST ONE of these two problems not existed, it would have been at least somewhat enjoyable, particularly if combat wasn't shit.

 

[Sensuki]

If Feargus asks for that real budget - 20-25 mil or even half of that, the project will never get funded. Hence the need to play it safe and grow that IP like a fragile flower.

That $20 million was probably for a fully voice acted, fully 3D game that also works on consoles.

 

[Irenaeus]

it doesn't take much effort to play this game, the largest effort is in how well you can stomach the bad combat.

I disagree 100%, it takes a lot of effort to play this game well and the combat is very good. You just burned out or are a retard, pick your choice.

 

[Sensuki]

Retards must be good at games then