Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[Night Goat]

I like D&D, but it is designed to be played by a group of people without a computer, and as such there's a lot of abstraction. Creating a ruleset that's better for CRPGs shouldn't be impossible; the fact that developers consistently fail to do so is a testament to their ineptitude.

 

[mastroego]

I'm also just genuinely baffled as to why Sawyer, etc. care so much about "balance" for a singleplayer game of all things. I'd rather have a mess of imbalanced madness (Arcanum, D&D 3.5e, like half the P&P rpgs ever made) that I can twist and turn in various quirky or broken directions than the really quite blanderized systems you see in PoE. It's not as if they succeeded in making a particularly and consistently challenging experience overall.

You see, in recent years, the theme of "balance" has become all the rage in the games industry.
What with e-sports, MMOs, and so on, the issue has merit to exist too.

Since the theme has become "fashionable" Sawyer evidently decided to focus on that for marketing reasons (and he might be proven clever in that regard), despite the issue not holding any real significance for a single player game.
This is the only logical explanation I can come up with, but of course, I can't tell for sure. There may be irrational reasons too.

 

[LeStryfe79]

CRPG D&D was also tweaked over and over again, ranging from 1981's Wizardry to Knights of the Chalice 30 years later. D&D rules are just plain fun.

 

[Prime Junta]

D&D still sucks monkey balls mechanically.

The reason it's so incredibly hard to make something better is the sheer amount of stuff in it. All the classes, kits, spells, items, feats, monsters, etc etc etc. If someone started from scartch with nothing from D&D (any edition) except the mechanics, the result would be utterly banal. Even the very first D&D cRPG's already had a massive amount of stuff to draw from; "all" they had to do was describe as much of it as they could in a computer game.

I get the impression that Josh realized the importance of this sheer quantity and variety of stuff. Trouble is that trying to make all that at once resulted in an assembly-line approach of putting things together from predefined pieces. This applies to spells, items, monsters, and everything else. The upshot is that it's (somewhat ironically given P:E's premise) lacking in soul.

I have no idea how Obs could have avoided that, other than not making their own IP, which was kind of the point. Maybe starting as a PnP homebrew, playing it internally for 10 years or so with a bunch of GM's and campaigns, and only then translating it to a cRPG. It's fucking hard to make something new that feels old.

The good news is that if the franchise survives and they don't intentionally quash it (streamlining etc), that depth and variety will emerge naturally over time.

 

[mastroego]

Well, positions have radicalized too much, at this point.

Time will tell.
But I stand by my prediction that this will fail to be remembered as one of the "pillars" of the genre, or even remembered at all.
(unless, of course, things will get SO much shittier over time that people won't have other options when looking for a standard... though there'll still be BG2 on the other hand).

 

[Athelas]

Well, positions have radicalized too much, at this point.

Time will tell.
But I stand by my prediction that this will fail to be remembered as one of the "pillars" of the genre, or even remembered at all.

It will be the most discussed RPG on the Codex. Actually, it already achieved that - before it was even released.

 

[Lady_Error]

Until AoD, Underrail, Torment?

 

[Athelas]

Until AoD, Underrail, Torment?

You're confusing quality with interest.

 

[Shadenuat]

For one, he seems to think that Might is better for dps than Dex

Might is better for alpha strike however, and PoE's combat revolves a lot around it. With spells having incredible RNG where 1st level spell can miss, graze or crit for 80 damage, and things like special attacks multiplying damage too, gun barrage openings, and waiting while enemies position themselves in a orderly manner to get some of those spell pie plates, MIG feels and generally behaves as a more reliable damage multiplier, while DEX is a bit more of a dark horse which really helps more on characters who run around naked, since it piles up and makes them do things, like casting spells, absurdly fast.

 

[Black]

The encounters are just the same shit over, and over, and over again. It's like a Korean MMO.

Go play Hepler RPG.

Keep crying bitch fanboy nigga.

 

[A horse of course]

I can't think how someone might say Drog Age is a better setting than PoE's for all it's faults. They're both Not-Fantasy settings, with Gaider going a bit more lipstick-gritty Game of Thrones and pilfering more liberally from Hollywood medieval europe. I suppose you could argue that Drog Age is more "honest" since it doesn't try to "elevate" the universe with an idiotic twist.

edit: Haven't played Inquisition so I don't know if they changed this in the 3rd game

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I think this kind of goes back to the issue that has been mentioned before in other reviews of Pillars, there aren't many hard counters.

Try a harder difficulty level if it is too easy for you. That's what they are for.

He complained that combat was too easy. Solution: increase difficulty level.

Perhaps I've been reading this thread for too long as I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but 'hard counters' have nothing to do with difficulty settings.

 

[Angthoron]

Time will tell.
But I stand by my prediction that this will fail to be remembered as one of the "pillars" of the genre, or even remembered at all.
(unless, of course, things will get SO much shittier over time that people won't have other options when looking for a standard... though there'll still be BG2 on the other hand).

It has a chance of being a foundation for such a pillar though. In a not-too-unlikely theory, the work done on PoE could lead up to something pretty good down the road - in theory, with most of the baby diseases of a new system, setting and engine out of the way, Obsidian would be free to start playing a more serious game. In practice - we'll see.

One thing I feel wasn't necessarily right is to push down the "balance" angle so much though. First edition should be there to experiment. Sure, create a balanced system but toss in things that can completely unhinge it too. Find out if it really destroys the game, or if it actually makes it more interesting. Get the idea what direction to go in. Playing it safe has that problem of, well, not really seeing dead ends or treasure troves.

 

[Prime Junta]

mastroego and others: It's possible that Baldur's Gate would have been a footnote had it not been for Baldur's Gate 2, the IWD's, and Planescape: Torment. It's likely P:E will also become a footnote if it doesn't get successors that surpass it in a similar way.

 

[Angthoron]

I can't think how someone might say Drog Age is a better setting than PoE's for all it's faults. They're both Not-Fantasy settings, with Gaider going a bit more lipstick-gritty Game of Thrones and pilfering more liberally from Hollywood medieval europe. I suppose you could argue that Drog Age is more "honest" since it doesn't try to "elevate" the universe with an idiotic twist.

edit: Haven't played Inquisition so I don't know if they changed this in the 3rd game

At least PoE's setting isn't a creatively used acronym of "The Dragon Age Setting". I'll take Hwrpa Dwrp over that pile of creativity.

 

[Dreaad]

The funny thing is Sawyer spent ages making his perfect system and ended up with D&D 4th edition with a few house rules. Right down to the way everyone can do everything and classes lose their unique feel and place in a team. Encounters are nothing more than HP punching bags. There are no hard counters, interesting abilities, items or spells. The consistency of the actual game mechanics and lore is pretty poor.

What offends me the most, is not that Sawyer tried and failed. It's that he blatantly lied over and over again to his backers, just like every other AAA dev. I have no reason to support Obsidian anymore, because they don't seem to care one way or the other, their target audience isn't me. I honestly hope they have to fall back on working for other Publishers with pre-defined IP's and focus on what they do best - salvage shitty popamole engines, whether it's creating KotOR 3 or repairing whatever damage Bethesda does in Fallout 4. There is plenty of developers I have more faith in to produce original games with real incline.

 

[Angthoron]

What offends me the most, is not that Sawyer tried and failed. It's that he blatantly lied over and over again to his backers, just like every other AAA dev.

Since I avoided the hype train and all, what did he lie about? I'm not sure I'm aware of this one.

 

[Lockkaliber]

I guess this review is indicative of this site becoming a parody of itself. Never seen such low quality in a codex review before. Roxxor comes of as a contrarian edge lord tbh.

 

[valcik]

Faggout 1

A heresy!

 

[Irenaeus]

I guess this review is indicative of this site becoming a parody of itself. Never seen such low quality in a codex review before. Roxxor comes of as a contrarian edge lord tbh.

He did it for the lulz

 

[Athelas]

The funny thing is Sawyer spent ages making his perfect system and ended up with D&D 4th edition with a few house rules. Right down to the way everyone can do everything and classes lose their unique feel and place in a team.

How so? The classes are very much distinct - monks play nothing like ciphers which play nothing like druids, spellcasters aren't suited to holding the front line, etc. The problem is that the game is too easy for these differences to come to the forefront.

Encounters are nothing more than HP punching bags.

This is a game where encounters can be over in seconds. Combat has many issues, but HP bloat isn't one of them.

What offends me the most, is not that Sawyer tried and failed. It's that he blatantly lied over and over again to his backers, just like every other AAA dev.

It sounds like you might be confusing lack of competence with malice.

 

[LeStryfe79]

It's just overkill.

 

[Prime Junta]

Athelas I'm inclined to be more charitable than that. He set out to do something that's almost impossibly hard. I think he succeeded remarkably well, considering.

 

[Quatlo]

but I have to give DA the edge because at least it was more original and had more interesting character development.

The bolded part deserves a separate mention.

Holy fuck you are delusional, in DAO you at least had a couple of interesting skills and talents (and that cool ass blizzard + lightning storm combo) to choose from, and you could increase your stats beyond Boots of Fanboyism +2 which dont stack with Ring of Sawyerism +1 because balance, then you could choose two subclassess with even more talents and skills. You could actually feel your character get stronger because of the new shit he can do, while in PoE you just increase your hp and accuracy while choosing your reward in the least uselss talent every couple of levels.

 

[Angthoron]

I guess this review is indicative of this site becoming a parody of itself. Never seen such low quality in a codex review before. Roxxor comes of as a contrarian edge lord tbh.

You have rose-tinted nostalgia goggles on, I see. There have been worse reviews quality-wise, though I guess they were hurting the sensibilities of other fanboys back then.