Codex Preview RPG Codex Preview: Knights of the Chalice 2 - Augury of Chaos

[Trashos]

I am talking about the higher difficulties above. Higher difficulties should be designed for veterans, not first-timers.

 

[Dr Schultz]

If anything, this seems backward to me. A game that expects the player to have metaknowledge of what is ahead is worse than a game that expects the player to accept bad dice rolls, particularly because random chance adds a "personal" drama to the game that metaknowledge doesn't.

Lots of us here have played our favorite cRPGs for hundreds and even thousands of hours. 90%+ of the time we have spent with them is with metaknowledge. If a cRPG is not fun with metaknowledge, it is not a good cRPG.

It is the same with books, movies and music. If it is good only the first time you experience it, it is trash, and it is not worth owning.

I think MRY was quite spot on with his post. IF metaknowledge is a prerequisite to win an encounter, then this specific encounter is ill designed.

Being a veteran shouldn't mean remembering how all the encounters of a game are laid out. A game, despite its genre, is supposed to give you all the tools and the information needed to win at your first try, as long as you've learned the lessons required to win (a.k.a. you have mastered the game systems, a.k.a. you are a veteran).

In short, making victories hard to earn could be a good thing. Making victories impossible without metaknowledge is definitely a bad thing.

 

[thesheeep]

A game, despite its genre, is supposed to give you all the tools and the information needed to win at your first try

I don't fully agree with this.
Imagine a game where you enter some dungeon or lair, but are immediately annihilated by some strong spell you can't do shit about.
You can, however, find an item in the game (maybe at a later point?) which allows you to ignore or disable that spell - the game won't tell you about it, though, you either find the item and connect the dots or you don't.

I'm not sure if this counts as metaknowledge, though, or just as a kind of puzzle to figure out, akin to adventure games.

Making victories impossible without metaknowledge is definitely a bad thing.

I think it is welcome for some optional things. Challenges that are there only for the select few veterans who want to grind their teeth out.

But an entire game or campaign like that? That's just nonsensical.

 

[Dr Schultz]

A game, despite its genre, is supposed to give you all the tools and the information needed to win at your first try

I don't fully agree with this.
Imagine a game where you enter some dungeon or lair, but are immediately annihilated by some strong spell you can't do shit about.
You can, however, find an item in the game (maybe at a later point?) which allows you to ignore or disable that spell - the game won't tell you about it, though, you either find the item and connect the dots or you don't.

I'm not sure if this counts as metaknowledge, though, or just as a kind of puzzle to figure out, akin to adventure games.

Well, this is a particular instance. In this case, the enemy, the spell, the trap of whatever acts like an hard gate, and is perfectly legit to require a "key" in order to win a gate-fight. Being immediately wiped out without the proper key, though, is an inelegant design solution. Getting a fair warning before the encounter even begins and/or be allowed to flee when you realize that the fight is hopeless is FAR better design if you ask me.

Making victories impossible without metaknowledge is definitely a bad thing.

I think it is welcome for some optional things. Challenges that are there only for the select few veterans who want to grind their teeth out.

But an entire game or campaign like that? That's just nonsensical.

To me, even the optional fights should be winnable with PERFECT mastery of the system alone. Knowing in advance what is expecting you should NEVER be a prerequisite.

 

[Curratum]

I'm surprised that the Codex does not like 12 dragons dropped on your head in every encounter. I thought that's exactly what autists who enjoyed the first game would get off on.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Either accept the player's fighting groups of unique enemies with their own unique equipment and let the player get all their equipment after the fights, and accept that the player will get a lot of magic items after most fights, it's alright, and in this game with few, all relevant, encounters, this approach makes sense, it's fine, or do like other games do, give thugs less relevant equipment, for example skeleton warriors would get the same, only moderately good, weapon, maybe only would bosses have rings, necklaces and other accessories, that's what other games do but I'm not sure it fits this exact campaign's approach since I like that more than often an average group of skeletons may be a cool gang instead of a group of generic monsters, I think the first approach could be better for this campaign of a big mess of cool, relevant encounters. I don't unreasonably hate KOTC2's approach but I am not very fond of it either.

There's a good and cheap solution to that: alignment limitations. Let's say, neutral evil skelly boy uses +2 sword of fuckfacery. Now, you can loot that, but sword is usable only by evil characters... and evil characters can't use some good or neutral locked items. And so on.

Fundamentally: A game (especially one as this) should be hard, but a player who
- knows all mechanics AND
- all content AND
- executes perfectly
should be winning 100% of the time.

To quote Vault Dweller once again: outcome=player skill+character strengths+RNG, where any two outweigh the third. If player skill is high and character strengths are impressive, then RNG is irrelevant. If player skill is low and character is shit it's all about RNG. That's the cornerstone of good RPG design.

 

[Darth Roxor]

CryptRat I've been thinking about your comparison to the Wizardry endgame, where you are faced with a similar degree of instant obliteration, and I don't think your comparison is entirely accurate.

Now mind you, I'm not going to be defending this particular feature, because I think the endgames in Wiz 6 and 7 are absolutely dreadful, but there are a few important differences to consider here, which make Wizardry a little less frustrating.

For starters, if you run into something particularly brutal, you can keep reloading until the encounter table graces you with something less insane. Is it dumb? Is it quasi-cheating? Maybe. But it's an option.

Second, and much more importantly, fights in Wizardry (barring 8) take much less time than in Kotc2, primarily because there is no movement. Fighter-types just whack things, mages cast nuclear blast and death cloud, and that's it. At this point in the game you are also familiar enough with the interface that resolving every turn takes you seconds because you just push the same hotkeys that you do all the time. Similar is true for the enemies, they just whack you or cast some spells and that's it. So if you get obliterated after 3 turns in Wiz7, you've lost two minutes of your time maybe. If you get obliterated after 3 turns in Kotc2, that might be what, 15 minutes?

So while in practice you are doing the same kind of brute forcing and hoping you don't get vapourised on turn one, it is at least slightly less aggravating in Wizardry because you don't have to waste/spend so much time on redoing the same actions on repeated attempts.

 

[Ol' Willy]

There's also a good solution to RNG-initiative roulette: preparation rounds. Before the battle starts each side has the preparation round: there, you and the opposing side each can apply buffs, change equipment, prepare spells and place characters within the given starting grid. Then, after each side is ready, the initiative is rolled and the battle starts. This way player can look up opponents strengths and weaknesses (let's say that some of them is hidden and special class or ability allows you to gather more information) and prepare for them accordingly. This way initiative loses it's deadly determinism and gives good chances to survive the initial onslaught on the lost roll.

For me, it seems better than "shit, this guys spams fire spells, I'll reload and prebuff fire-protection before the fight" routine.

 

[Curratum]

resolving every turn takes you seconds because you just push the same hotkeys that you do all the time

Truly, the refined, elevated and inclined roleplaying gameplay that the Codex loves!

 

[Tacgnol]

I'm surprised that the Codex does not like 12 dragons dropped on your head in every encounter. I thought that's exactly what autists who enjoyed the first game would get off on.

Aside from the optional encounter, that's not how most encounters were in the first game.

The dragon in the orc fortress is a good example, it's a hard fight, but Pierre gives you the tools you need to make the fight a lot easier (arrows of dragon slaying).

KOTC 2 would throw the dragon at you with no arrows, then spawn three more buffed dragons as soon as the first one dies.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Truly, the refined, elevated and inclined roleplaying gameplay that the Codex loves!

Indeed, I wish every game out there had slick and intuitive interfaces that can be operated in an instant via hotkeys.

 

[Grunker]

I'm surprised that the Codex does not like 12 dragons dropped on your head in every encounter. I thought that's exactly what autists who enjoyed the first game would get off on.

You haven't even touched the first game, have you?

 

[cruelio]

I don’t know if a series that is dead everywhere except Japan because everyone realized it was stupid bullshit is a great counter to the argument that KotC2 is stupid bullshit. Maybe Pierre should get KotC2 published by Atlus to reach his true audience, glorious Nippon.

 

[Tacgnol]

I don’t know if a series that is dead everywhere except Japan because everyone realized it was stupid bullshit is a great counter to the argument that KotC2 is stupid bullshit. Maybe Pierre should get KotC2 published by Atlus to reach his true audience, glorious Nippon.

They'd need to publish his Dune clone first or he wouldn't have anything to do with them.

 

[AMG]

I don’t know if a series that is dead everywhere except Japan because everyone realized it was stupid bullshit is a great counter to the argument that KotC2 is stupid bullshit. Maybe Pierre should get KotC2 published by Atlus to reach his true audience, glorious Nippon.

This is probably also the one case when replacing all the art with anime would actually be an improvement. Match made in heaven!

 

[Curratum]

I'm surprised that the Codex does not like 12 dragons dropped on your head in every encounter. I thought that's exactly what autists who enjoyed the first game would get off on.

You haven't even touched the first game, have you?

I tried, but the 1990 menus, UI/UX and general experience turned me off before I could actually start playing it properly.

 

[Trashos]

think MRY was quite spot on with his post. IF metaknowledge is a prerequisite to win an encounter, then this specific encounter is ill designed.

Being a veteran shouldn't mean remembering how all the encounters of a game are laid out. A game, despite its genre, is supposed to give you all the tools and the information needed to win at your first try, as long as you've learned the lessons required to win (a.k.a. you have mastered the game systems, a.k.a. you are a veteran).

Why does your highest difficulty level demand mastery of the system but not mastery of the content? You can do what you are saying for a lower difficulty setting. There is no excuse for not demanding knowledge of the content at some point in a cRPG. All your best fans are going to know everything inside out after 1000 hours. Let them make use of it.

Lower (or slightly lower) difficulty settings can forgive unpreparedness. There is no reason for the higher ones to do so.

 

[Dr Schultz]

Why does your highest difficulty level demand mastery of the system but not mastery of the content?

Because a game (or a difficulty level) designed in such a way doesn't test your skill anymore. It just tests your memory. A quite lame design goal, don't you think?

If you have truly mastered all the game systems, you should by extension be able to adapt to all the encounters the game throws at you. The highest difficulty level should simply be the level with no room for errors.

Ps: If you ask me, difficulty levels in CRPGs are bullshit. Because of the insolvable conflict between fixed contents and variable party builds, I've never played a single CRPG with a perfectly executed difficultly curve at any level. Hopping that a CRPG could be well balanced on multiple difficult levels is pure wishful thinking.

 

[AMG]

If you have truly mastered all the game systems, you should by extension be able to adapt to all the encounters the game throws at you. The highest difficulty level should simply be the level with no room for errors.

Game systems are not divorced from the content they interact with, you can't master one without the other. Not in any kind of tactics/strategy game at least, and definitely not in an RPG, where gear and character choices are half the game.
In an action game mastery of mechanical elements might indeed result in not needing any kind of foreknowledge about what's ahead.

 

[cr0mag]

What about the idea of a new style of divination wizard being the middle ground to having to metagame? Having a wizard sacrifice some raw power but getting an ability to have a report of what's about to happen before the fight could let you say put on your fire resist armour because you know that there are fire mages ahead. This would allow you to not get rekt but still RPing without feeling cheaty

 

[Dr Schultz]

If you have truly mastered all the game systems, you should by extension be able to adapt to all the encounters the game throws at you. The highest difficulty level should simply be the level with no room for errors.

Game systems are not divorced from the content they interact with, you can't master one without the other. Not in any kind of tactics/strategy game at least, and definitely not in an RPG, where gear and character choices are half the game.
In an action game mastery of mechanical elements might indeed result in not needing any kind of foreknowledge about what's ahead.

The definition of game system isn't remotely limited to the "character building process" or even the “overall ruleset" in a videogame. Everything is part of a game system. Parrying in Sekiro is a game system, part of the bigger system which is the combat. When you have truly mastered both, you can theoretically beat everything the game throws at you during your first try. You can but you probably won't, because this require a flawless hand-eye coordination. The game leaves you almost no room for errors, but you still have to make an error in order to die.

A turn based RPG is no different in these regards except for the skill tested: your strategical-tactical reasoning. When you finally understand how to build a perfect party and known how to use said party in a tactically sounding way (meaning you have mastered both the strategical and the tactical part of the game), in theory there is no encounter that you can't beat at your fist try. Or at least, this is how things work in a game with a proper encounter design.

 

[Grunker]

I'm surprised that the Codex does not like 12 dragons dropped on your head in every encounter. I thought that's exactly what autists who enjoyed the first game would get off on.

You haven't even touched the first game, have you?

I tried, but the 1990 menus, UI/UX and general experience turned me off before I could actually start playing it properly.

It's fine that you can't spend the 10 minutes it takes to get accustomed to that stuff. That's par for the course for kids these days. It's a bit more bewildering that you make statements about something you know nothing about that are so obviously untrue for those that do that you come off looking... a little bit stupid.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Is there any way to create an OP party here?

Smash the wizard button six times during character creation. Somebody allegedly got through the module that way (hey I got through KOTC1 with two clerics and two wizards). I suspect the six wizard person required a lot of reloading that wasn’t divulged, but that’s the KOTC2 experience anyway.

That was me, worst part and reload heaven was the goblin arena and goblin king. After that it was much easier

 

[Darth Canoli]

Is there any way to create an OP party here?

Smash the wizard button six times during character creation. Somebody allegedly got through the module that way (hey I got through KOTC1 with two clerics and two wizards). I suspect the six wizard person required a lot of reloading that wasn’t divulged, but that’s the KOTC2 experience anyway.

That was me, worst part and reload heaven was the goblin arena and goblin king. After that it was much easier

If you play a wizard party, you absolutely need to bring your pet Death Knight along, if anything, he'll help your wizards spells to land.

An overpowered party is a well balanced one.
If you're going to bring a lot of mage types along, a Death Knight is really good.
Then, you add a wizard, a psionicist, a cleric and a druid and the last spot goes for a fighter for the wade-in feat.
This feat is important for crowd control, it means he won't lose his extra attacks after moving, which he'll do most of the time.

If you don't pick a fighter, a Barbarian or a Samouraï are also very good for their moving capabilities (samourai isn't slowed down by armor penalties, barbarian gets moving bonuses) and their to hit bonuses (samourai makes any weapon he wields a +X weapon up to +8 i think, barbarian uses rage)

I played such a party DK, Samourai, Wiz, Psion, Cleric, Druid + Erz and Pizarra (and then removed Erz) and the game was quite easy* up to chapter 4 where i stopped after the first fight.

*Aside from some optional fights like the shark shaman (ch 1), the spider Queen (ch 3), the hydra from ch 2 can be tricky too, specially if she spawns with the lizard king (feels like KotC 2 has more kings and queens than ToEE has bugbears...)

 

[luj1]

Is there any way to create an OP party here?

Smash the wizard button six times during character creation. Somebody allegedly got through the module that way (hey I got through KOTC1 with two clerics and two wizards). I suspect the six wizard person required a lot of reloading that wasn’t divulged, but that’s the KOTC2 experience anyway.

That was me, worst part and reload heaven was the goblin arena and goblin king. After that it was much easier

If you play a wizard party, you absolutely need to bring your pet Death Knight along, if anything, he'll help your wizards spells to land.

An overpowered party is a well balanced one.
If you're going to bring a lot of mage types along, a Death Knight is really good.
Then, you add a wizard, a psionicist, a cleric and a druid and the last spot goes for a fighter for the wade-in feat.
This feat is important for crowd control, it means he won't lose his extra attacks after moving, which he'll do most of the time.

If you don't pick a fighter, a Barbarian or a Samouraï are also very good for their moving capabilities (samourai isn't slowed down by armor penalties, barbarian gets moving bonuses) and their to hit bonuses (samourai makes any weapon he wields a +X weapon up to +8 i think, barbarian uses rage)

I played such a party DK, Samourai, Wiz, Psion, Cleric, Druid + Erz and Pizarra (and then removed Erz) and the game was quite easy* up to chapter 4 where i stopped after the first fight.

*Aside from some optional fights like the shark shaman (ch 1), the spider Queen (ch 3), the hydra from ch 2 can be tricky too, specially if she spawns with the lizard king (feels like KotC 2 has more kings and queens than ToEE has bugbears...)

thanks