Codex Preview RPG Codex Preview: Knights of the Chalice 2 - Augury of Chaos

[CryptRat]

Of course, you don't get to pick up the sword when he dies.

Yes, on one hand it's cool that you fights a lot of monsters with different weapons, and it's also cool that you don't get 10 new different magic swords after each fights. The problem is these two things don't compute.

And I don't think the way it's done in the game, which means not getting their equipment, is a good compromise, it's indeed unsatisfying. It's not the first game when you don't get all the enemies' equipment, but it's always unsatisfying, not just in this game.

Either accept the player's fighting groups of unique enemies with their own unique equipment and let the player get all their equipment after the fights, and accept that the player will get a lot of magic items after most fights, it's alright, and in this game with few, all relevant, encounters, this approach makes sense, it's fine, or do like other games do, give thugs less relevant equipment, for example skeleton warriors would get the same, only moderately good, weapon, maybe only would bosses have rings, necklaces and other accessories, that's what other games do but I'm not sure it fits this exact campaign's approach since I like that more than often an average group of skeletons may be a cool gang instead of a group of generic monsters, I think the first approach could be better for this campaign of a big mess of cool, relevant encounters. I don't unreasonably hate KOTC2's approach but I am not very fond of it either.

 

[thesheeep]

I agree. Game is like that. But holy shit is it fun. Those moments where you defeat an encounter, are hard earned and well worth it. The game demands a lot from you.

You do not understand game design when you think that a basic roll of luck determining who goes first and wins due to that is "demanding" or "hard earned".
Clicking reload till you win is not a valid skill, nor is it "brutal" difficulty - it is merely entirely random. The equivalent of a slot machine.

Expeditions: Viking had exactly the same problem - You act first, you win vs. you act 2nd, you reload until somehow not everyone ends up dead before it's your turn.
There is no skill in this. No good character building will save you. You literally reload until you win.
If at all, good character building is the requirement to even partake in the reload-till-win "game".

It's a pretty easy problem to solve, too (make first round less relevant). But it seems that Pierre just didn't care to do that.

 

[luj1]

AoC is the only module that exists for KotC2 so far?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

AoC is the only module that exists for KotC2 so far?

Hearkenwold will be in it.

 

[CryptRat]

Clicking reload till you win is not a valid skill.

You guys who think clicking reload is enough to win in this game are just really good at video games, any choice of feats, equipment, spells, which spell to use, which enemy to target, in which order to take the encounters, which resource to use or keep, when to sleep, what to buy, what to craft, what dialog option to pick, the answer to every puzzle ... everything is always completely obvious to you.

However to me who's not good at video games it is not obvious, no way I feel like I can win just be reloading, I have got ton of flexibility in making better or worse choices and problems to solve all along the game.

 

[thesheeep]

You guys who think clicking reload is enough to win in this game are just really good at video games, any choice of feats, equipment, spells, which spell to use, which enemy to target, in which order to take the encounters, which resource to use or keep, when to sleep, what to buy, what to craft, what dialog option to pick, the answer to every puzzle ... everything is always completely obvious to you.

However to me who's not good at video games it is not obvious, no way I feel like I can win just be reloading.

None of these things you listed matter at all if you do not start first in a battle with BS encounter design like this.

So, yeah, it all comes down to reloading until you go first. And then it may or may not start being about actually being good at the game - but that's not the point.
The point is the need to reload until you even get the chance to be good at the game showcasing really bad encounter or systems design.

And as encounters have multiple phases this "initiative dance" repeats multiple times per encounter, making the whole deal exponentially worse.

 

[CryptRat]

You guys who think clicking reload is enough to win in this game are just really good at video games, any choice of feats, equipment, spells, which spell to use, which enemy to target, in which order to take the encounters, which resource to use or keep, when to sleep, what to buy, what to craft, what dialog option to pick, the answer to every puzzle ... everything is always completely obvious to you.

However to me who's not good at video games it is not obvious, no way I feel like I can win just be reloading.

None of these things you listed matter at all if you do not start first in a battle with BS encounter design like this.

So, yeah, it all comes down to reloading until you go first. And then it may or may not start being about actually being good at the game - but that's not the point.

Of course it's the point, which such a system with high power spells with a big area of effect especially either you need decent initiative to have a chance to win a fight or it means the game is very easy and whenever you win the initiative it becomes a joke. It's different for games where you trade blows like The Dark Eye games.

 

[luj1]

You guys who think clicking reload is enough to win in this game are just really good at video games, any choice of feats, equipment, spells, which spell to use, which enemy to target, in which order to take the encounters, which resource to use or keep, when to sleep, what to buy, what to craft, what dialog option to pick, the answer to every puzzle ... everything is always completely obvious to you.

However to me who's not good at video games it is not obvious, no way I feel like I can win just be reloading, I have got ton of flexibility in making better or worse choices and problems to solve all along the game.

Of course all these things can help, dont be an idiot

but what makes or breaks it are the initiative rolls

 

[luj1]

Maybe if enemies werent so overpowered everything would work better

 

[CryptRat]

It's just that you're taking thinking backwards in my opinion, and I am aware it's only my opinion.

If the game was easier then you would care less about your choices because you could just reload, while in this game at the opposite you have to care, reloading is not enough, you're punished hard for making bad choices (don't get it wrong, there are still tons of viable possibilities regarding party building for example).

 

[Grauken]

Of course, you don't get to pick up the sword when he dies.

Yes, on one hand it's cool that you fights a lot of monsters with different weapons, and it's also cool that you don't get 10 new different magic swords after each fights. The problem is these two things don't compute.

And I don't think the way it's done in the game, which means not getting their equipment, is a good compromise, it's indeed unsatisfying. It's not the first game when you don't get all the enemies' equipment, but it's always unsatisfying, not just in this game.

Either accept the player's fighting groups of unique enemies with their own unique equipment and let the player get all their equipment after the fights, and accept that the player will get a lot of magic items after most fights, it's alright, and in this game with few, all relevant, encounters, this approach makes sense, it's fine, or do like other games do, give thugs less relevant equipment, for example skeleton warriors would get the same, only moderately good, weapon, maybe only would bosses have rings, necklaces and other accessories, that's what other games do but I'm not sure it fits this exact campaign's approach since I like that more than often an average group of skeletons may be a cool gang instead of a group of generic monsters, I think the first approach could be better for this campaign of a big mess of cool, relevant encounters. I don't unreasonably hate KOTC2's approach but I am not very fond of it either.

I always liked how it worked in the Goldbox games, you could get all the equipment from dead enemies, but weight considerations soon made you choose only the stuff you really needed

 

[CryptRat]

In KOTC2 I was very careful when choosing feats, choosing spells (I spent a lot of time reading the full spell lists of all spell schools to choose the corresponding feats for example, I don't think I did for KOTC1) and looking for shop inventory, I paid attention to and occasionally used warrior skills, tried many spells, tried different paths and would regularly turn around looking for the best thing to do next. I tried to manage my spell slots (you can check limited rests in KOTC1 but it's not by default), looked for what I could craft (in KOTC1 it'd kinda kill the game) ... And given how hard the game is I felt it was worth it, I never felt like I could ignore all these things, just reload and win.

I loved KOTC1 but I did not pay attention as much when playing KOTC1, never felt it was worth it, I always went forward, did not use warrior skills and would cast my usual spells (sleep, web, confusion, dispell magic, probably haste, slow and some other buff spells too but I can't remember well ...). I never really felt challenged, reloading a few times would always be a sure way to win with my average party except for the very last post-ending fight which I have not beaten to this day.

I'm really surprised people feel they win KOTC2 by reloading.

 

[luj1]

I always liked how it worked in the Goldbox games, you could get all the equipment from dead enemies, but weight considerations soon made you choose only the stuff you really needed

Thats why I love Wiz 6, one of the timeless GOATs

 

[luj1]

I'm really surprised people feel they win KOTC2 by reloading.

I hope its not the case

 

[thesheeep]

Of course it's the point, which such a system with high power spells with a big area of effect especially either you need decent initiative to have a chance to win a fight or it means the game is very easy and whenever you win the initiative it becomes a joke. It's different for games where you trade blows like The Dark Eye games.

Which only comes down to the fact that a system like that is bad design.
D&D was never really great to begin with, but campaigns like these just drive all the bad points about it home.

Nuke spells just shouldn't exist or be an extreme rarity - and they should never, ever be in the enemy's hand (except if there is some nice way for you to prepare for it, like doing a side-quest to make the final battle manageable or fire protection against fireball in early levels).
As soon as enemies can nuke you, the game's length gets prologed not by being challenging (again, reloading is not a challenge) but by RNG deciding you need to reload now - through no mistake of your own.
The player can get a few nukes given how the player is often up against absurd odds, but even that should be rare.

When both the player and the enemies have an arsenal of nukes at pretty much all times, it only becomes logical that whoever's caster acts first will be the winner.

If 1-turn-game-ending threats are the only way a dev can come up with to challenge the player, then the dev did not do their homework.
You can make enemies stronger overall to make the game more challenging, you can add more enemies (though that has obvious drawbacks in TB games), you can use the environment against the player, etc. Lots of ways with lots of creative possibilities.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I'm really surprised people feel they win KOTC2 by reloading.

This is obviously not true. As you say, you have to pay very close attention to all the feats, spells and gear you take. The entire point, and the problem, is that despite taking all this care to choose your tools, in the end constant reloading is still necessary to win. You can have the most powergamed party possible, but then the "black wizard" wins initiative, uses accelerated spell and casts double prismatic void and wipes you out anyway. This should not be happening.

 

[Grauken]

I'm really surprised people feel they win KOTC2 by reloading.

This is obviously not true. As you say, you have to pay very close attention to all the feats, spells and gear you take. The entire point, and the problem, is that despite taking all this care to choose your tools, in the end constant reloading is still necessary to win. You can have the most powergamed party possible, but then the "black wizard" wins initiative, uses accelerated spell and casts double prismatic void and wipes you out anyway. This should not be happening.

Reminds me of the Demo for KotC1, the fight with the Necromancer

 

[luj1]

I'm really surprised people feel they win KOTC2 by reloading.

This is obviously not true. As you say, you have to pay very close attention to all the feats, spells and gear you take. The entire point, and the problem, is that despite taking all this care to choose your tools, in the end constant reloading is still necessary to win. You can have the most powergamed party possible, but then the "black wizard" wins initiative, uses accelerated spell and casts double prismatic void and wipes you out anyway. This should not be happening.

How can Pierre not understand this?

 

[Grauken]

I'm really surprised people feel they win KOTC2 by reloading.

This is obviously not true. As you say, you have to pay very close attention to all the feats, spells and gear you take. The entire point, and the problem, is that despite taking all this care to choose your tools, in the end constant reloading is still necessary to win. You can have the most powergamed party possible, but then the "black wizard" wins initiative, uses accelerated spell and casts double prismatic void and wipes you out anyway. This should not be happening.

How can Pierre not understand this?

Too many roots and not enough meat in his diet

 

[CryptRat]

In the very last floors of Wizardry your party basically gets eradicated whenever they don't win initiative, and you'd often better not roll too bad in Pools of Darkness, this was always a thing in games with such kinds of systems (yet sophisticated people, so not me, ironman these games and I'm certain they will ironman KOTC2 as well). The only difference, compared with Wizardry, is that in KOTC2 when you win initiative there's still a fight because your mage did not eradicate the entire enemy party*, or at least that's true in the biggest battles, and I've always claimed that as a rule the best battles in KOTC2 are generally the biggest ones (fighting against one lonely hard enemy is actually mostly reloading).

And I think that not automatically winning most fights when winning initiative is more important than not losing fights when you lose it. You can avoid both, but if you want, at all cost, avoid it for every single fight then you're probably not making a typical D&d game (fundamentally, fighting against a level 20 mage when your own mage's level is 20 as well is not what I consider absurd, yet once again if he's, basically, a lonely level 20 mage, then it sucks alright).


*except for spell slot considerations, you can't eridicate enemy parties at will

 

[Mortmal]

Review is good except the conclusion, kotc 2 doesnt portray D&d mechanisms so good since it completely ignore the CR system . If you do that in pnp people will never ask you to DM again.

I ignore the CR system and my players have no problem with it. The CR system of 3.x notoriously does not work properly.

I'm not saying that Pierre's solution is ideal, just that you can't blindly rely on monster's CR to build encounters.

You have very forgiving players, but yes CR alone is not enough , its misleading for some critters way above their ratings, terrain and environment matters too.In 5E its not better , but still you are probably not moving far from it, in kotc2 the cr range is absurd.
Anyway enough talking about this i am not sure its worth it nor he's listening to feedback, he only come to promote the game then he ghost us completely both in codex and discord . Last update was about ismetric tiles for the editor if i remember well, as if that was the thing really needed now. I doubt we will see fan modules except the one by dorateen.

 

[Dr Schultz]

In the very last floors of Wizardry your party basically gets eradicated whenever they don't win initiative, and you'd often better not roll too bad in Pools of Darkness, this was always a thing in games with such kinds of systems (yet sophisticated people, so not me, ironman these games and I'm certain they will ironman KOTC2 as well). The only difference, compared with Wizardry, is that in KOTC2 when you win initiative there's still a fight because your mage did not eradicate the entire enemy party*, or at least that's true in the biggest battles, and I've always claimed that as a rule the best battles in KOTC2 are generally the biggest ones (fighting against one lonely hard enemy is actually mostly reloading).

And I think that not automatically winning most fights when winning initiative is more important than not losing fights when you lose it. You can avoid both, but if you want, at all cost, avoid it for every single fight then you're probably not making a typical D&d game (fundamentally, fighting against a level 20 mage when your own mage's level is 20 as well is not what I consider absurd, yet once again if he's, basically, a lonely level 20 mage, then it sucks alright).


*except for spell slot considerations, you can't eridicate enemy parties at will

I've run D&D campaingns for almost 20 years (despite not being particularly fond of the system) and, even though my players died often as a result of stupid decisions, they never died because of a bad initiative roll.

Dying for such a reason is not "typically D&D", it's just bad encounter design, both in videogames and in real p&p sessions.

 

[Tweed]

I'm certain they will ironman KOTC2 as well

I dare anyone to try and Ironman Augury of Chaos, there is absolutely no possible way it can be done even if you ignore initiative there's too many battles that require a very precise plan of attack, like the ghost dragon or the goblin king. If you don't keep the king busy he will use his empowered fireball to blow your party to cinders. If you miss the ghost dragon with the mace, you lose.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Clicking reload till you win is not a valid skill.

You guys who think clicking reload is enough to win in this game are just really good at video games, any choice of feats, equipment, spells, which spell to use, which enemy to target, in which order to take the encounters, which resource to use or keep, when to sleep, what to buy, what to craft, what dialog option to pick, the answer to every puzzle ... everything is always completely obvious to you.

However to me who's not good at video games it is not obvious, no way I feel like I can win just be reloading, I have got ton of flexibility in making better or worse choices and problems to solve all along the game.

You guys who think clicking reload is enough to win in this game are just really good at video games, any choice of feats, equipment, spells, which spell to use, which enemy to target, in which order to take the encounters, which resource to use or keep, when to sleep, what to buy, what to craft, what dialog option to pick, the answer to every puzzle ... everything is always completely obvious to you.

However to me who's not good at video games it is not obvious, no way I feel like I can win just be reloading.

None of these things you listed matter at all if you do not start first in a battle with BS encounter design like this.

So, yeah, it all comes down to reloading until you go first. And then it may or may not start being about actually being good at the game - but that's not the point.
The point is the need to reload until you even get the chance to be good at the game showcasing really bad encounter or systems design.

And as encounters have multiple phases this "initiative dance" repeats multiple times per encounter, making the whole deal exponentially worse.

UH-OH.....you sure its not linear?

 

[Tweed]

Pierre made this game for a certain kind of person, to hurt them.