Codex Preview RPG Codex Preview: Knights of the Chalice 2 - Augury of Chaos

[Tyranicon]

I wouldn’t tell my worst enemy to add a ranger to his party.

Oh shit, it's dnd 5e.

 

[Tomas]

Congratulation Infinitron on a spot on review and finishing the game. You did something I could not - it was the Spider Queen fight that ended me. I spent three weeks night after night trying to figure out how to get past it, but the combination of RNG, random crashes to desktop, unreliable summons, and just sheer overwhelming odds - total nightmare. If the game goes on Steam like this it will get crucified.

What I don't understand is why. Pierre does not strike me as a mean person who would get a laugh at players wiping out on the fights. There is not even a historical parallel, KOTC1 was fine, and I played and finished both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games on the highest difficulty (though if memory servers in the latter I had to scale up to it.). Today I am playing Fire Emblem Three Houses on Switch on MADDENING difficulty and I am doing fine. It is the first Fire Emblem game I have ever played, and yeah some scenarios I have to reload once or twice but I am enjoying the game. Also there are easier difficulties for more casual players.

So my humble opinion, the KOTC2 current difficulty can be kept as Maddening (or some kind of new game+), but the game needs a default normal difficulty that is playable and enjoyable by casual players, not just a few veteran masochists.

 

[Whisper]

Congratulation Infinitron on a spot on review and finishing the game. You did something I could not - it was the Spider Queen fight that ended me. I spent three weeks night after night trying to figure out how to get past it, but the combination of RNG, random crashes to desktop, unreliable summons, and just sheer overwhelming odds - total nightmare. If the game goes on Steam like this it will get crucified.

What I don't understand is why. Pierre does not strike me as a mean person who would get a laugh at players wiping out on the fights. There is not even a historical parallel, KOTC1 was fine, and I played and finished both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games on the highest difficulty (though if memory servers in the latter I had to scale up to it.). Today I am playing Fire Emblem Three Houses on Switch on MADDENING difficulty and I am doing fine. It is the first Fire Emblem game I have ever played, and yeah some scenarios I have to reload once or twice but I am enjoying the game. Also there are easier difficulties for more casual players.

So my humble opinion, the KOTC2 current difficulty can be kept as Maddening (or some kind of new game+), but the game needs a default normal difficulty that is playable and enjoyable by casual players, not just a few veteran masochists.

Like 99,9999% of games are perfectly playable for casuals/Bioware crowd.

Should we actully get few that are challenging?

 

[Tomas]

>Now consider that you are always outnumbered
Most of the DnD games that Chalice takes inspiration from, tend to throw a lot of enemies at you. It's part of the norm. The tactical play from Chalice 2 comes from how you manage multiple enemy targets. For example, one of the tools that you can use to manage multiple enemy combatants, is sorcery; the enchantment school exists to provide you with tons of crowd control spells. Sleep, Confusion, Chaos, and Hold Person/Monster. Not to mention, other schools of magic provide you with reasonably good crowd control spells to deal with large groups of enemies.

There is being outnumbered, and then there is the castle party.

26 enemies on screen, and that's before the constant reinforcements that add another... 15-20?

Crowd control spells are all fine in theory, but they get progressively less useful once it turns out the enemies have spell resistance 32, high saving throws, and (aoe!) contingent break enchantment to get rid of the crowd control from everyone instantly the moment it's cast - of course that's assuming they don't have mind blank which makes them immune to those effects in the first place. The only actual options you have left in practice are stinking cloud and quicksand by that point. And even before the pre-buff and spell resistance tango begins for real, they still tend to have pretty high saving throws by virtue of being higher level than you.

>You are always out-levelled, often even very significantly.
In Chalice 1 there were also tons of situations where you were out leveled. This isn't anything new. It sucks to go up against a high level enemy that is ten times your level. Just the other day I lost an iron man run in Chalice 1 to this behemoth of a monster.

This is nowhere near as insulting in Kotc1 as it is here. By comparison to Kotc2, this video of yours actually looks reasonable. If this were Kotc2, the balor would have not 2 babau to help, but 6, with a dragon on top and an ice devil or two. The ridiculousness of Kotc2 lies in not just being outnumbered and not just being outleveled, but all of it combined. It's ok to face a strong thing that is way above your average party level. It's ok to face a throng of mooks. It's not ok to face a throng of greater balors, and that's what Kotc2 does all the time.

Anyways, this is how Pierre designs the encounters. However, Pierre does provide the player with tools to deal with such enemies. If you're not properly using your tools, and just neanderthaling your way around; obviously your going to have a bad time. Dealing with enemies that are a higher level than you, is not "bullshit"; it's you not exploring the different types of options you have at your disposal. In regards to Chalice 2, the best example of this is the tomb challenge. There is a tomb near a goblin fort. Once you go in, you can't get out until you defeat all the enemies. Somewhere in there is a weapon that has the disruption enchantment. Making it the perfect counter against all the undead enemies that dwell in there. After you survive the undead encounter, you are then given scrolls to deal with the salamander fight that occurs afterwards. So, Pierre does provide the player with items to deal with over leveled enemies.

you are delusional

I intended to respond to your entire post, but I figured there's no point, especially after I got to this part:

>The worst thing still is that after some point, Augury of Chaos turns into a quick draw contest. Either you win initiative and can obliterate the enemy first (or at least shut down his most important characters), or you get blown up to hell.
I agree. Game is like that. But holy shit is it fun. Those moments where you defeat an encounter, are hard earned and well worth it. The game demands a lot from you. To me, the best moments are seeing the party has won screen. Makes me excited. I jump around in my sit knowing I defeated a super difficult encounter. Maybe I'm just weird like that.

If your idea of "fun" is reloading 50 times until you don't get exploded in the first two turns, then I'm afraid we just don't have anything to talk about. Jesus Christ.

Especially when a lot of what you say is downright untrue in practice. Like the point about "exploring your tools" when the game consistently takes them away from you or invalidates them. Or that by the endgame you also have "supercharged mages" - yeah no shit, sherlock, except that the enemies can afford to spend spell slots at leisure because they are confined to just a single fight and can roll out the big guns without a second thought. Meanwhile you have to manage spell slots for the long run, and you also have no idea about the length of this "long run" either.

And these bugs weren't addressed? Yeesh.

Most of the very big ones have been. It's much more stable atm than it was at release.

Congratulation Infinitron on a spot on review and finishing the game. You did something I could not - it was the Spider Queen fight that ended me. I spent three weeks night after night trying to figure out how to get past it, but the combination of RNG, random crashes to desktop, unreliable summons, and just sheer overwhelming odds - total nightmare. If the game goes on Steam like this it will get crucified.

What I don't understand is why. Pierre does not strike me as a mean person who would get a laugh at players wiping out on the fights. There is not even a historical parallel, KOTC1 was fine, and I played and finished both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games on the highest difficulty (though if memory servers in the latter I had to scale up to it.). Today I am playing Fire Emblem Three Houses on Switch on MADDENING difficulty and I am doing fine. It is the first Fire Emblem game I have ever played, and yeah some scenarios I have to reload once or twice but I am enjoying the game. Also there are easier difficulties for more casual players.

So my humble opinion, the KOTC2 current difficulty can be kept as Maddening (or some kind of new game+), but the game needs a default normal difficulty that is playable and enjoyable by casual players, not just a few veteran masochists.

Like 99,9999% of games are perfectly playable for casuals/Bioware crowd.

Should we actully get few that are challenging?

Am totally ok with there being the challenging mode, but it can’t be the game’s default difficulty. Just from business perspective if you want the game to sell well and get good reviews it needs to be playable by casual players.

The game is really well designed when it comes to mechanics and rules implementations. There could be a lot more people enjoying playing it.

 

[Whisper]

Am totally ok with there being the challenging mode, but it can’t be the game’s default difficulty. Just from business perspective if you want the game to sell well and get good reviews it needs to be playable by casual players.

The game is really well designed when it comes to mechanics and rules implementations. There could be a lot more people enjoying playing it.

What happens in reality: we get "easy", "normal" and "hard" difficulties.
Easy being "left click your path to victory", normal being easy and hard being somewhat challenging if you dont have any clue about mechanics, never played before. Maybe a bit challenging.

So 1 really hard game out of 100 released maybe is not bad idea? Should it have easier difficulties? Why not. But developer shouldnt nerf it to dumb down to level of Bioware crowd.

 

[Whisper]

I am not blaming Bioware, if they dont sell many copies they wont be able to sustain so many hired people (and pax other costs). So if you have big team you are forced to dumb game down so it sells well.
Good things dont attract popularity usually - we dont see crowds in jewelry stores. Basically we can expect good games only from small team or even 1-man teams. This is reality.


Projects from big studios is just glorified circurs or rollercoaster. Where they just entertain and do their best so game is beatable while player eats/watches TV and does his homework - all at same time. Thats why shallow mechanics, Skyrim-type "puzzles" solvable by 8-year olds in first seconds and etc.


So I support KoTC2 developer.
In age of pussy developers who follow lowest common denominator - he has balls of steel. Not all can win campaign? Tough fucking luck.

As saying in olde days: git gud, scrubs.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

we dont see crowds in jewelry stores

Implying that overpriced minerals are things people don't buy just because those minerals are too good for them to understand their value.

 

[Whisper]

we dont see crowds in jewelry stores

Implying that overpriced minerals are things people don't buy just because those minerals are too good for them to understand their value.

Implying that quality things (art, music, films, games) are not overcrowded.
I am not snob, but i do state the obvious.

Popular games are rarely good, for several reasons. And Challening and deep games are usualy niche games. For several reasons, obvious ones.

 

[Tacgnol]

As saying in olde days: git gud, scrubs.

What exactly is git gud about reloading a save until your caster wins initiative and enemies lose saves against a save or suck spell?

Even a scrub is capable of that.

 

[Darth Roxor]

As saying in olde days: git gud, scrubs.

What exactly is git gud about reloading a save until your caster wins initiative and enemies lose saves against a save or suck spell?

Even a scrub is capable of that.

He's used to RUS)))) shovelware "difficulty". Actually I've been meaning to call this game on the level of russian shovelware when it comes to difficulty in the revio, but I never found a good place to fit it in.

 

[Jasede]

I'm so good at video games, I reloaded until my casters got to act before their casters! Woah, check it out, big dick RPG master coming in.

 

[Tacgnol]

I'm so good at video games, I reloaded until my casters got to act before their casters! Woah, check it out, big dick RPG master coming in.

In our Pathfinder game last week, against the final boss of the AP book, my Barbarian rolled 3 natural 20s on his iterative attack and rolled above 15 (without mods) on all the crit confirm dice with a x3 weapon and took away about 90% of the monster's HP.

This clearly makes me a tactical genius.

Pierre would think so anyway.

Edit: Darth Canoli, there is no need to be upset. Just git gud and you'll be as good as me and Jasede

 

[Darth Roxor]

Darth Canoli i think you should finally check out chapter 4 and show us all how it's done

you can't just quit before getting to the best bits you know

 

[Tacgnol]

Darth Canoli i think you should finally check out chapter 4 and show us all how it's done

you can't just quit before getting to the best bits you know

He needs to git gud and practice his speed initiative rolling and reloading skills.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Darth Canoli i think you should finally check out chapter 4 and show us all how it's done

you can't just quit before getting to the best bits you know

I mostly hate completing games, let alone unfinished ones.
Half the Codexers that played Wasteland 2 hates it, i only played the DC version (with some mods) and mostly enjoyed it, could have done without the tier weapons, waiting half an hour to pick a lock and a few other shenanigans but WL2>>>>>>>>>>>>PoE, PK and the likes.

I'm willing to wait for the right time to complete KotC 2 in order not to ruin the experience for myself.
You kids who have no patience can go on ranting, i know this game will improve and some marvelous modules be created, such as Hearkenwold.

In the meantime, i prefer to give my full support to skilled indie devs rather than retarded teams creating dumbed down games for the masses.

And shame on you and Infinitard for publishing that review even before the official release, this is disgusting...

 

[Darth Roxor]

And shame on you and Infinitard for publishing that review even before the official release, this is disgusting...

keke-fucking-roni

 

[Jasede]

Guys KOTC 2 is actually really easy if you git gud like me but I won't finish it because it's just too easy for me. I'm not sure what you guys are complaining about, hahaha Bethestards, bet you want an I win buttan and a quest compass.
Morans!

 

[Darth Canoli]

What are you even doing here?
Nothing to do until Assassin Creed sucks vampire's dicks is released?

 

[Mortmal]

Congratulation Infinitron on a spot on review and finishing the game. You did something I could not - it was the Spider Queen fight that ended me. I spent three weeks night after night trying to figure out how to get past it, but the combination of RNG, random crashes to desktop, unreliable summons, and just sheer overwhelming odds - total nightmare. If the game goes on Steam like this it will get crucified.

What I don't understand is why. Pierre does not strike me as a mean person who would get a laugh at players wiping out on the fights. There is not even a historical parallel, KOTC1 was fine, and I played and finished both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games on the highest difficulty (though if memory servers in the latter I had to scale up to it.). Today I am playing Fire Emblem Three Houses on Switch on MADDENING difficulty and I am doing fine. It is the first Fire Emblem game I have ever played, and yeah some scenarios I have to reload once or twice but I am enjoying the game. Also there are easier difficulties for more casual players.

So my humble opinion, the KOTC2 current difficulty can be kept as Maddening (or some kind of new game+), but the game needs a default normal difficulty that is playable and enjoyable by casual players, not just a few veteran masochists.

You got it wrong its Dark roxxor who played it , infinitron would have a severe allergic reaction as there's too much of rpg into it, but you may be a new codexer so you dont know. Infinitron is a mossad agent who fucked up during service,short story , he gave wrong intel the whole squad got killed, so he was demoted and transfered to media control department .But at the lowest place possible a job no one wants, RPGCODEX news poster.
Second you are way off its not playable and enjoyable by just a few veteran masochists , if you know the rules and builds by heart, play d&d since the 80's its still unplayable and require winning iniative.

 

[JarlFrank]

As saying in olde days: git gud, scrubs.

What exactly is git gud about reloading a save until your caster wins initiative and enemies lose saves against a save or suck spell?

Even a scrub is capable of that.

He's used to RUS)))) shovelware "difficulty". Actually I've been meaning to call this game on the level of russian shovelware when it comes to difficulty in the revio, but I never found a good place to fit it in.

Reminds me of Russian-made Thief fan missions, those always have bullshit "difficulty" that requires you to find tiny hidden switches with no hint on where to find them, include 1980s Sierra style inventory puzzles with no hints on how to do them, and often have some cruel objectives like making you fail the mission if you're ever spotted. And of course there are a ton of "walking dead" scenarios you can accidentally get yourself into.

WTF is it with Russkis and unfair difficulty?
Soviet nostalgia? "Aaah yes, game so hard it remind me of life in glorious Soviet Union!"

 

[Tacgnol]

As saying in olde days: git gud, scrubs.

What exactly is git gud about reloading a save until your caster wins initiative and enemies lose saves against a save or suck spell?

Even a scrub is capable of that.

He's used to RUS)))) shovelware "difficulty". Actually I've been meaning to call this game on the level of russian shovelware when it comes to difficulty in the revio, but I never found a good place to fit it in.

Reminds me of Russian-made Thief fan missions, those always have bullshit "difficulty" that requires you to find tiny hidden switches with no hint on where to find them, include 1980s Sierra style inventory puzzles with no hints on how to do them, and often have some cruel objectives like making you fail the mission if you're ever spotted. And of course there are a ton of "walking dead" scenarios you can accidentally get yourself into.

WTF is it with Russkis and unfair difficulty?
Soviet nostalgia? "Aaah yes, game so hard it remind me of life in glorious Soviet Union!"

They do the same with their STALKER mods very often.

Ridiculous randomised hidden item hunts, exceptionally vague instructions and choices that can lead to story hard locks.

I even saw one Russian modder say once that avoiding a game breaking bug was part of the challenge, and he hadn't fixed the bug intentionally.

 

[Jasede]

Well you wouldn't understand, obviously you only play Assassin's Creed and Hello Kitty Island Adventure unlike badass, well-respected Darth Canoli. Everyone admires him here because of his incredible RPG skill.

 

[Tacgnol]

Well you wouldn't understand, obviously you only play Assassin's Creed and Hello Kitty Island Adventure unlike badass, well-respected Darth Canoli. Everyone admires him here because of his incredible RPG skill.

So incredible he ALMOST beat KOTC2, a feat no one else on the forum has managed.

 

[Jasede]

Maybe he could give us peasants some tips?

 

[Darth Canoli]

I thought i already did, oh wait, you'll have to search about them in both threads just like searching for in game information makes the game easier.

Oh well, looks like i thrown in some info after all ...