Rome Total War II

[Sazabi]

If the previous three releases are any indicator, then modding will be decidedly limited.

 

[BlitzKitchen]

What about the the Total War games since Empire makes modding so nonviable? Changes in format?

 

[Konjad]

Wasn't there a case where some dude made a mod and CA told him to remove it, releasing kind-of similar purchasable DLC some time later? I think there was something like that on www.twcenter.net but I cannot find it.

 

[Borelli]

Wasn't there a case where some dude made a mod and CA told him to remove it, releasing kind-of similar purchasable DLC some time later? I think there was something like that on www.twcenter.net but I cannot find it.

Woah that sounds evil, like corporation level evil, and at the same time pathetic.
Do they actually have the power to do that? What if he simply puts the mod on thepiratebay to download?

 

[Emily]

obviously they can't do anything about it.
But modders at twcenter traditionally were friendly with devs.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

Wasn't there a case where some dude made a mod and CA told him to remove it, releasing kind-of similar purchasable DLC some time later? I think there was something like that on www.twcenter.net but I cannot find it.

If my memory serves me - this was a modder unlocking "locked" factions and making them playable in the campaign.

Could easily be more than one.

 

[Konjad]

Wasn't there a case where some dude made a mod and CA told him to remove it, releasing kind-of similar purchasable DLC some time later? I think there was something like that on www.twcenter.net but I cannot find it.

If my memory serves me - this was a modder unlocking "locked" factions and making them playable in the campaign.

Could easily be more than one.

Oh yeah! That was it!

 

[JarlFrank]

What about the the Total War games since Empire makes modding so nonviable? Changes in format?

Yes, changes in format. Previously most files were just simple editable text files, now they're all compressed in some kinds of data files that are much more difficult to edit. Modders still haven't figured out how to edit the world map, for example, and they've been working on it since Empire's release.

Konjad
Yeah it was just a mod that unlocked locked content that the devs later sold as DLC. There are many, many mods that add additional units, and they're much better than anything the official DLCs offer, but the devs never shut any of those down. They've always been very tolerant and even supportive towards modding and only lock down mods that illegally add DLC content.

 

[Raghar]

Current modders are bunch of whiners that are expecting everything to be done for them without theirs effort. Previous modders were forced to disassemble things, and basically crack a game to be able to mod stuff. I'd rather have a finished game, than a buggy game with modding tools.

Well, it should teach EA to avoid releasing game with DLC on DVD, and only send key when they pay for DLC. Wasting HD space by a stuff they locked away from user is an offense and bad developer's behavior.

 

[Darklife]

Empire TW should have been bug free then.

 

[JarlFrank]

Current modders are bunch of whiners that are expecting everything to be done for them without theirs effort.

The guys on TWC are making incredible progress with finding ways to mod Empire and Napoleon. There are just some things they still, after years, struggle with, but they're working on it.

Oh, and cracking the game is illegal which is why no mods hosted on TWC change the .exe, which limits modding capabilities a bit. But obviously, a large and almost semi-official fansite like TWC where even the devs occasionally post cannot host mods that include a crack for obvious reasons.

 

[BlitzKitchen]

An effective AI mod for Empire is long overdue. Some of the larger mods claim to change it in some way, but I have yet to be impressed. I haven't played in a long time, but sunk many hours into that game trying various mods and scenarios, leaving disappointed every time.

 

[Raghar]

Oh, and cracking the game is illegal which is why no mods hosted on TWC change the .exe, which limits modding capabilities a bit. But obviously, a large and almost semi-official fansite like TWC where even the devs occasionally post cannot host mods that include a crack for obvious reasons.

Actually modification of the text data, and the art, is illegal even more. EXE is a machine generated code which because it's formal code must have identical components. When art part isn't infuse into the code, the difference between modded and unmoded exe is like reading a e-book on android, or kindle. An author can't forbid you to read his book on android.

 

[JarlFrank]

Modified exes usually remove the copy protection, which is the only illegal part about the entire thing.

 

[spectre]

Actually modification of the text data, and the art, is illegal even more.

Eh? I don't think so. Id' see modding as something that falls under derivative work. So long as it doesn't violate fair use, i.e. it's non-profit, you don't claim ownership and authorship of the art assets, or do not defame or misrepresent it in any way etc.

While this may depend on the country you live in and how fucked up your court rulings are, the general rule is: they can write whatever they bloody want in the EULA, and you may click "I agree to the above terms and furthermore I shall be sodomized by a horned goat every forthnight" until your finger bleeds, it's not binding if it stands in opposition with superior instance regulations. Of course, this doesn't amount to anything substantial until people actually start challenging the publisher's sense of entitlement. Most people don't because they can't be bothered with this shit, which is understandable.

 

[JarlFrank]

Also, why should it be illegal? It's called modding. It's existed since pretty much always. People can modify their games all they like, and then upload those modifications and share them with other fans. The nature of mods is that they can only be played when you have the original game - and if you modify the exe to, for example, remove the CD check, you provide a crack with your mod, which is not legal cause it allows people to play pirated copies.

That pirated copies come with a crack anyway is beside the point.

 

[spectre]

People can modify their games all they like, and then upload those modifications and share them with other fans.

Yeah well, what you do in your basement is usually nobody's business... unless you are Josef Fritzl.
Problem is, I did some digging, and the actual legal situation can be a mess, depending on how your country chose to implement its copyright laws.
For example, there are countries which explicitly state that computer programs are exempt from "fair use", other laws (like laws in potato), moronically state that the author of the program is the only person allowed to make alterations, adaptations, translations and otherwise tamper with the content. Not sure if it applies to both private and public use, but nonetheless, be warned pollacks, stay away from the mods if you know what's good for you.

Of course, it's all well as long as the devs aren't intent on being dicks. Indie devs usually are kind enough, CA used to be pretty accommodating back in the day, and then there's Bethesda...

 

[JarlFrank]

Actually I never heard of any dev/publisher going C&D on a modding team (unless the mod breaks a copyright, like LotR or Star Wars mods getting cancelled). And why would they, since mods are pretty much free advertising for their game and might make some people who wouldn't have bought the original reconsider and buy it because of the mod (there are actually some people who only bought Rome/Medieval 2 years after release because of promising mods they've seen).

The only thing I ever remember reading about a publisher directly saying NO to modding is with EA, I think. Your origin account will be banned if you run BF3 with mods or something like that, if I remember correctly.

 

[spectre]

I recall the guys who wanted to recreate Morrowind on Oblivion's engine got a C&D. Strange case really, as it all stayed in the family, as it were.

 

[Shannow]

Actually I never heard of any dev/publisher going C&D on a modding team (unless the mod breaks a copyright, like LotR or Star Wars mods getting cancelled). And why would they, since mods are pretty much free advertising for their game and might make some people who wouldn't have bought the original reconsider and buy it because of the mod (there are actually some people who only bought Rome/Medieval 2 years after release because of promising mods they've seen).

The only thing I ever remember reading about a publisher directly saying NO to modding is with EA, I think. Your origin account will be banned if you run BF3 with mods or something like that, if I remember correctly.

Pfft. How would I sell my Horse Armor DLC if some modder could simply spend 5 minutes and mod it in? Free advertising is all nice and stuff until it threatens the suits' revenue from micro-transactions.
CA had no reason to make their newer games more mod-unfriendly than the older ones, but they did. In fact they did and never released modding tools that they'd previously promised. This development just happened coincide with the advent of DLCs... And putting the blame for the lack of mods on the modders' shoulders, although they are in large parts the same people who modded pre-Empire CA games *tommyleejones.jpg*

I don't have much hope for the modding capabilities of future CA titles unless their management changes its stance. The best one can hope for is the release of modding tools after the game is out for >1.5 years and no more revenue can be expected from DLC and expansions. In fact that'd be a great way to put the game back on the screen and increase late sales...

 

[KoolNoodles]

They won't C&D, generally, unless the modding will affect their company's bottom line. Hence making that TW modder take down his "Free DLC" mod. They don't care if people are modding ETW etc. now, because all that will do is maybe make a handful of people pick it up on a Steam sale for $5(more money for them). A good modding community will generally prolong the profit margin of a game, well beyond what it would otherwise have been. It has come into conflict, sort of, since the advent of tons of DLC, but hasn't come to a head yet. If the current trend continues, however, I would not be surprised seeing more legal action taken by game companies. It just depends on when "modding" becomes "stealing our money".

 

[JarlFrank]

Well, but CA has never complained about the countless unit mods out there for Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2, which directly compete with the DLC - which is also mostly just new units.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Well, but CA has never complained about the countless unit mods out there for Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2, which directly compete with the DLC - which is also mostly just new units.

True, and that's good, but I see the trend towards less-modability/outlawing certain mods continuing, rather than becoming more permissive.

 

[praetor]

Well, but CA has never complained about the countless unit mods out there for Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2, which directly compete with the DLC - which is also mostly just new units.

but they have (at least for stw2, don't care for etw/ntw), they made modders take out some units that they "unlocked" (or more precisely, jury-rigged from parts in game) before the first dlc even came out (and included said units... iirc, it was some kinds of ashigaru, katana maybe? it was quite some time ago and i stopped caring and began actively hating and boycotting CA after they begun selling the megaretarded blood pack dlc. that was just disgusting and probably worse than anything activision, bethesda or EA have done)

 

[JarlFrank]

Well, but CA has never complained about the countless unit mods out there for Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2, which directly compete with the DLC - which is also mostly just new units.

but they have (at least for stw2, don't care for etw/ntw), they made modders take out some units that they "unlocked" (or more precisely, jury-rigged from parts in game) before the first dlc even came out (and included said units... iirc, it was some kinds of ashigaru, katana maybe? it was quite some time ago and i stopped caring and began actively hating and boycotting CA after they begun selling the megaretarded blood pack dlc. that was just disgusting and probably worse than anything activision, bethesda or EA have done)

Yes but that was different, that was ripping units that were sold as DLC later. Read my previous posts in this thread. They never complained about fan-made unit mods with fan-made textures and models and stats.

 

[Raghar]

Even if the modder would be in the best situation, it would be a derivative work. (Which is the reason why SW games are so heavily restricted.)

Now imagine a situation when a game company would work half year on some units, and a modder would create them first. What would prevent them to attack that modder? There were customs in game industry where these things were tolerated, but with influx of people who were not self educated/crazy developers who have passion, a normal behavior common in other industries might dominate.

 

[Trash]

Just read the article in Pc Gamer UK March 2013 pdf. While it's basically about a historical battle you can play in the game (the destruction of three legions in an ambush in Teutenburg forest) they also give some information on actual gameplay. For instance the unit cards are this time made in the style of the culture they represent. With Romans for instance being represented in the style of those images you find on Greco-Roman pottery. Seems like they're keeping that attention to artstyle they had in Shogun II. The unit cards will also grow smaller the longer you play the game and the larger your force gets. They say that they've done this in part so that the UI gets smaller the more experienced the player gets in it.

Battles are also apparantly no longer full on field battles or siege battles. You might have a large skirmish over baggage trains or some other means. They also claim to have changed defensive siege battles so the defender won't feel that safe anymore. Individual soldiers have their own height with there being height variance in units. The preview mentions large hulking Germanic berserkers that tower above Roman troops. Clicking like a maniac also gets its own mechanic. With you for instance clicking a lot to disengage a unit is being taken by the game as a sign that you really want to do that. Sounds lame, or as an acknowledgement of prior titles shortcomings...

Plus side however, each unit has its own dynamic, terrain, time and weather specific line of sight. Making the game a lot more claustrophobic during the ambush according to the article. It's also meant as a way to make ambushes and manoeuvring more relevant in the game. They also mention army stances in the main campaign. Aggressive, defensive and ambush all giving you different options. Big decline for me is that the worldmap still has no direct bearing on the battle maps. Although they claim that once generated you'll find the same terrain in the same place.

During the game they want to increase opposition to you slowly but surely. Meaning no more big event in which all the factions gang up on you but a slow cascade of your deeds bringing more and more hatred. Or something. Apparantly new empires can form and every faction will have internal struggles. Meaning you can also expect your own faction to get its share of internal rivalry which is based around an updated version of Shogun's loyalty mechanics. As the game goes on long enough you can be sure you'll have betrayel and civil war with someone bound to cross the rubicon sooner or later. They also put a strong emphasis on actual decisions having consequences and rivals. Which might mean a focus on characters for that. No idea. Oh, and apparantly ambushes are a preferred way of AI allies telling you they're no longer friends with you. Hm.

All in all, sounds like a typical TW game with some new additions. I really dislike the loss of the campaign map cells being zoomed out versions of the battle maps but the attention to artstyle and the broader range of battle objectives sound interesting. Factions and cultures being represented as various groups and an emphasis on inner faction happenings also sounds good. I liked that aspect in FotS. Do hope we'll see an improved version of that though.