Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Excidium II]

^
:D

Yet you had no reservations praising FO:NV's writing.

In the sense that it handles the player being thrown in the middle of faction dynamics a whole damn lot better. Even the initial motivation is way better, vengeance or at the very least some answers being something fitting to the western theme.

 

[Prime Junta]

:D

I also think it beats VtM:B hands-down in the way it portrays a post-apocalyptic retro-kitsch wasteland. VtM:B is shit in that respect, man!

 

[Excidium II]

The difference being that faction dynamics are also an aspect of Bloodlines, and the most critical element of the setting.

 

[Doktor Best]

Excidium is actually right in this, the interesting part of VtM:B's writing is the source material. They didn't do anything novel with it, they just used it and surprise, surprise - good source material, good end product. Some of the writing is good on its own, like Deb of Night, Jack, Lily, Malk primogen, maybe Vandal, maybe Jeanette/Therese. The other characters are mostly stereotypical clan members that do stereotypical things (Strauss, LaCroix, Andrei, Ming, Bach, The Giovanni, Garry(?)) or don't go anywhere (Ash, Andrei, The Giovanni, The Bishop, Nines). The serial killer character had potential, but it kinda ends disappointingly "my family won't like it!!!!" or some such crap. VV also had ...attributes. Surprisingly, your character was the one with the most characterization and change.

Not to mention that the entire thing doesn't go anywhere because they rushed it out the door. VtM:B's a good game though and the world needs a new good one (hint, hint Paradox).

EDIT: I'd even say that VtM:R's writing was somewhat better than B's , at least between Anezka and Christoff. It was kinda like a Shakespearean play

Nah. Its just a common misconception that rpg-stories always have to contain something novel or innovative and be completely devoid of any cliches and turn your life upside down or some bullshit in order to be considered brilliant writing.

Some codexians are like those delusional women who read romantic novels all day long and only regard a man as good if he is romantic, athletic, stunningly good looking, a good listener, the heir to a throne and rides with her topless on a white horse along the beach on the first date.

Fuck no man. Writing is good if you like to read those texts. The above case only happened ONCE in the history of crpgs in form of planescape torment, and when it came to making love it was revealed to us that even that one had a very small combat system penis. Our standards are way too high if there is only one game that could fit the category "great".

I think vampire bloodlines has great writing because it hits bulls eye when it comes to transporting the setting. It oozes atmosphere with its strange and memorable npcs. It also succeeds in installing various interesting factions with plausible agendas using the player as ping pong ball of their powergames.
Its gud, in its own form, on its own terms.

And you can ALWAYS fuck up a setting with shit writing. Look at sword coast legends as exhibit A.

 

[Prime Junta]

The difference being that faction dynamics are also an aspect of Bloodlines.

:D :D :D

The difference being, Bloodlines is a narrative-driven game, and FO:NV is a mechanics-driven game.

You're a hoot Excidium and I love you but I have a game to play. Looking forward to your astute observations on my further progress.

 

[WhiteGuts]

This is definitely all about nitpicking and personal preferences. Both VTMB and NV have great writing, with many similarities in how everything seems to flow naturally and how believable the world is. Any major road bump can be chalk up to the engine being shit, too.

And in VTMB's case, the source material being good doesn't explain it all away. We could've had something True Blood-y, or extra emo edgy.

 

[Excidium II]

The difference being, Bloodlines is a narrative-driven game, and FO:NV is a mechanics-driven game.

Except I'm not talking about mechanics. I'm talking about the writing. How the factions are presented and how you can interact with them, and what part the player plays in their interactions.

The independent route in FNV is infinitely more satisfying than anything in VTMB's plotline.

And in VTMB's case, the source material being good doesn't explain it all away. We could've had something True Blood-y, or extra emo edgy.

To me that's the source material's power. It's the only vampire fiction that I don't hrow in the trash straight away.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

The difference being that faction dynamics are also an aspect of Bloodlines, and the most critical element of the setting.

It's not easy to translate chess wars between 400 year old undead monsters (that are paranoid as fuck and usually set up plans that can take several decades to come into fruition) in a video game format (which by its nature is quite limited in many ways). Factions are a lot more rudimentary in your average post-apoc settings, raiders and military remnants.

Maybe if it wasn't an ARPG but half of the fun in playing a vampire in a video game is flexing your muscles occasionally and using your powers to wreck havoc, even more so for the plebs. Hard to imagine a game with high production values not taking the same route.

 

[grotsnik]

EDIT: I'd even say that VtM:R's writing was somewhat better than B's , at least between Anezka and Christoff. It was kinda like a Shakespearean play

Hey now, let's not say anything we might regret.

Spoiler

Lo! Methinks this stilted cod-medieval bullshit doth make me cringe.

 

[Excidium II]

DEAREST ANEZKA DOST THOU GIVETH ME THY LOVE

The introductory story in the manual was cool at least.

The difference being that faction dynamics are also an aspect of Bloodlines, and the most critical element of the setting.

It's not easy to translate chess wars between 400 year old undead monsters (that are paranoid as fuck and usually set up plans that can take several decades to come into fruition) in a video game format (which by its nature is quite limited in many ways). Factions are a lot more rudimentary in your average post-apoc settings, raiders and military remnants.

Well good thing LA was a completely unstable domain, ripe for new players to enter the game. RIP narrative potential.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Well, VTMB doesn't have intense factions mechanics like NV, but you can strongly feel the struggle between the different parties, and that's entirely thanks to the writing.

 

[Excidium II]

What intense faction mechanics for christ's sake? All it has are some interleaving quests.

but you can strongly feel the struggle between the different parties, and that's entirely thanks to the writing.

Where?? All it has is the basic setup. The wheels just stop moving when the game starts. Only the sabbat seems to be doing anything but you go and stop it on your own.

 

[Lacrymas]

Nah. Its just a common misconception that rpg-stories always have to contain something novel or innovative and be completely devoid of any cliches and turn your life upside down or some bullshit in order to be considered brilliant writing.

Some codexians are like those delusional women who read romantic novels all day long and only regard a man as good if he is romantic, athletic, stunningly good looking, a good listener, the heir to a throne and rides with her topless on a white horse along the beach on the first date.

Fuck no man. Writing is good if you like to read those texts. The above case only happened ONCE in the history of crpgs in form of planescape torment, and when it came to making love it was revealed to us that even that one had a very small combat system penis. Our standards are way too high if there is only one game that could fit the category "great".

I think vampire bloodlines has great writing because it hits bulls eye when it comes to transporting the setting. It oozes atmosphere with its strange and memorable npcs. It also succeeds in installing various interesting factions with plausible agendas using the player as ping pong ball of their powergames.
Its gud, in its own form, on its own terms.

And you can ALWAYS fuck up a setting with shit writing. Look at sword coast legends as exhibit A.

I think "novel" wasn't the best choice of word. What would be a better word is "expansion", i.e. expand the character concepts to make them characters rather than a collection of stereotypical clan behaviour.

Hey now, let's not say anything we might regret.

Eeeehh, kinda. I suppose it fits since Christoff does see himself as a savior and white knight in medieval Europe (I don't know if they even talked like this). It's somewhat cringe-y, sure.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Well good thing LA was a completely unstable domain, ripe for new players to enter the game. RIP narrative potential.

Well Paradox could still potentially use it, right? They don't have to go with nWod.

 

[grotsnik]

(I don't know if they even talked like this).

Oh, that was exactly my problem with it. It's what you might call Ren Faire dialogue - excessive 'thees' and 'thous', lots of flowery, stiffly-written declarations. It's what a schoolkid might think they spoke like in Ye Olde Englande. Which is fine if you're going for something deliberately goofy and tongue-in-cheek, but otherwise it's going to keep tripping you up and make the characters come across as ridiculous pastiches. (There's a good reason it features heavily in Baldur's Gate but drops out of BG2).

Redemption elects to use it and then tries to tell a tender love story, which is just asking for trouble.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, that was exactly my problem with it. It's what you might call Ren Faire dialogue - excessive 'thees' and 'thous', lots of flowery, stiffly-written declarations. It's what a schoolkid might think they spoke like in Ye Olde Englande. Which is fine if you're going for something deliberately goofy and tongue-in-cheek, but otherwise it's going to keep tripping you up and make the characters come across as ridiculous pastiches. (There's a good reason it features heavily in Baldur's Gate but drops out of BG2).

Redemption elects to use it and then tries to tell a tender love story, which is just asking for trouble.

?

 

[SCO]

The only reason there weren't more factions was just budget. Even though that most of the Sabbath are murderhobos if they had the money they could have easily put out a lasombra shadow spymaster there to keep it classy or something.

 

[Prime Junta]

Moving on.

Museum level was a bit meh I thought. Snuck and ran from guards until I got to the end. Looked purty though but not much to do or discover there. It did communicate how I've grown from a bumbling neonate into a lethal predator of the night; the challenge being not to kill those poor fools standing in my way.

Hollywood strip. Looks very cool, even better than downtown. More established vamps yanking my chain; I got a bit bored with larping a rebellious bitch and just rolled with it. Did some errands for VV and chased a video for Isaac, then brought a serial killer to justice (for violating the Masquerade). The dynamics of vampire society are unfolding rather nicely, and the role I'm taking now makes me feel much more like I'm a part of it -- even if a junior part -- than an outsider forced in. And yeah, that is skilled writing as well -- actual character development for a blank-slate protagonist, not easy to pull off.

Game is holding up well. By now my combat skillz are good enough that it's not a horrible painful chore all the time, although I did ragequit on Romero's zombie shooting thing after a few tries -- got the timer down to a minute or so but then they always break out. Figure I could probably do it if I put another pip or two into Celerity and tried, tried, tried again, but that's not my idea of fun so I pimped for him instead.

Then bought a combat shotgun from Mercurio, hoo. That oughta put some holes into things, especially as I've got my firearms skill up to 7 already.

I think I've had enough for today.

 

[Starwars]

Soon begins the great decline of Bloodlines unfortunately. Whenever I replay the game, I always get this sinking feeling when I reach Hollywood, like... soon, soon my enjoyment of the game will turn into bitterness.

 

[Lhynn]

Excidium II still chasing after the perfect game i see.

 

[Esquilax]

Oh, that was exactly my problem with it. It's what you might call Ren Faire dialogue - excessive 'thees' and 'thous', lots of flowery, stiffly-written declarations. It's what a schoolkid might think they spoke like in Ye Olde Englande. Which is fine if you're going for something deliberately goofy and tongue-in-cheek, but otherwise it's going to keep tripping you up and make the characters come across as ridiculous pastiches. (There's a good reason it features heavily in Baldur's Gate but drops out of BG2).

Redemption elects to use it and then tries to tell a tender love story, which is just asking for trouble.

?

Jesus fucking Christ, are we really comparing Redemption to Shakespeare now?

 

[Jaesun]

 

[Prime Junta]

Nah just Lacrymas. He does that sort of thing. The moniker's a bit of a giveaway really.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm just saying that Shakespeare also used a lot of "thees" and "thous" in tender love stories :p

 

[Gnidrologist]

I'm just saying that Shakespeare also used a lot of "thees" and "thous" in tender love stories :p

And average medieval people talked shakespearean in real life.:D

Excidium is gnawing half-troll. Bloodline's writing is one of the best for a computer game (i hope we aren't comparing it with literature or even movies) and, as have been mentioned, mostly because of it's elegance. First of all P:T isn't even a proper vidya, it's an interactive story, so obviously, when 99% of the game revolves around teh redding, it better be good, otherwise it's a useless product. V:B is action game first and for most so writing should be concise and gud at driving the narrative. It not only accomplishes that, but succeeds at being memorable.

Now question for those, who have played it with wesp's (or what's the best patch) thing. Did they do away with coercing (those with the OCD) players to micro manage skill three by taking into consideration free skill points from books/quests? Because as i remember, there was always something like ''can use book, unless skill = 3 or higher''. Given that the cost of pips increase with each level, there was allways the sweet spot when to use free point.