Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

baturinsky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,621
Location
Russia
I can't talk to Venus after doing her first quest:( She takes me to the top room, and then I can't talk to her.
Any idea if it is fixable?

Cut scenes, especially ones where you are moved too, are super buggy.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Yeah, your soul was just saved by Wesp's sewer shortcut.

I think Gary's dialogue works slightly better if you are Toreador since his rant leads to a tirade against the clan being a bunch of corpses who like to pretend otherwise.

Oh, it's Wesp's? That takes care of at least 300 years of purgatory right there.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
Yeah, your soul was just saved by Wesp's sewer shortcut.

I think Gary's dialogue works slightly better if you are Toreador since his rant leads to a tirade against the clan being a bunch of corpses who like to pretend otherwise.

Oh, it's Wesp's? That takes care of at least 300 years of purgatory right there.

A shortcut? Nice, when did he implement that? And how do you access it?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Yeah, your soul was just saved by Wesp's sewer shortcut.

I think Gary's dialogue works slightly better if you are Toreador since his rant leads to a tirade against the clan being a bunch of corpses who like to pretend otherwise.

Oh, it's Wesp's? That takes care of at least 300 years of purgatory right there.

A shortcut? Nice, when did he implement that? And how do you access it?

Don't know about the when, but pretty early in the sewers there's this one spot with two doors facing each other, both with relatively easy locks. One of them is a broom closet with an ammo box; the other one is a dug-out cave with a computer and safe door set into the floor. That's where it starts.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,055
Mechanics and systems wouldn't fix it. You'd need to fix the core moment-to-moment gameplay first: the feel of movement and feedback in close combat, to take the two biggest offenders.

Myself I more have mechanical and systemic reinforcement in mind...

Those things would be fixed through systems tweaks.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,055
You do know what a system is, right? In this case we'd be refining the movement system & combat systems.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
Wouldn't say Tung and Gary are that similar. Bertram (whose face always reminds me of Kevin Bacon for some reason) is a pragmatic and rational individual, pretty easy to deal with while Gary is somewhat sinister and vindictive, clearly longing for his past life of a handsome movie star. The whole tidbit about him an Imalia is quite telling of his personality. Plus he has that great "Forget it boss, It's Chinatown" line.

Chinatown is a bit barebones in the quest department (though you still meet memorable, interesting characters) but I also love the music, visuals and atmosphere. There's one particular bit with Wong-Ho's secretary if you're playing as a Malk that caught me by surprise the first time I was playing as one, quite hilarious but a bit chilling at the same time.

The game slowly goes downhill from there with the exception of one good setpiece.

Yeah, your soul was just saved by Wesp's sewer shortcut.

I think Gary's dialogue works slightly better if you are Toreador since his rant leads to a tirade against the clan being a bunch of corpses who like to pretend otherwise.

Yeah, there's Toreador specific dialogue with Gary (which doesn't come as a surprise obviously):

Gary_Toreador1.jpg
Gary_Toreador3.jpg


[quote/]
 

Prime Junta

Guest
You do know what a system is, right? In this case we'd be refining the movement system & combat systems.

Okay. Let us know when you're done, I look forward to playing it.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Yeah, there's Toreador specific dialogue with Gary (which doesn't come as a surprise obviously):
And its not just that. Gary is a Nosferatu in Toreador Central and a former actor himself. His backstory rant is unwarranted for most protagonists but if you are Toreador yourself it all comes together. His initial rant is about going from Holywood royalty to a decrepit monster is a commentary on your own decadence as an Anne Rice pretty person.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
I gotta wonder, was there a branch cut from the narrative?

I feel like I got railroaded a bit there. I absolutely would not have wanted to rat out Nines to LaCroix, and when LaCroix chucked me out on my ear, the only way to continue the game was to crawl back to him. This did not make narrative sense.

It feels like they intended to put a branch here, allowing me to switch allegiance from LaCroix to the Anarchs. I could've gone to Jack, Skelter, or Damsel (<3) with my intel about LaCroix's interest in the Sarcophagus, and they could then have taken over driving the plot, by sending me to investigate it in the museum. Nines' disappearance could've been handled by him finding out someone or something was impersonating him, and he would go underground to investigate that.

From there on out, the actual missions could've progressed just like they do in the actual game.

Speculating obviously, but it feels like this. I'm sure the writers are smart enough to have seen the problem at least.

Yeah, the lack of player agency there is disappointing, especially considering Nines saved your life twice (not to mention that there was clearly something off with him when you met at him at Grout's mansion entrance). Even the whole work for the Anarchs as a spy doesn't amount to anything save a bit of extra dialogue near the end, a missed opportunity. Probably lack of development time and resources.

It is very rail-roady, but it's not true that you can't play loyal to the Anarchs. You can tell the anarchs early that you want to side with them, and they tell you to be their mole in LaCroix's organisation. If you do so, then LaCroix will comment on it later on.

It helps a lot if you bear in mind that LaCroix is not the 'Camarilla choice'. He's his own guy, willing to fuck over anyone to pursue his own aims. His whole plan is an absolute refutation of the Camarilla's laws and belief system - diablerising a fucking ancient, something a Camarilla prince isn't even supposed to believe in, and trying to take its power to leap from 'middle management' to 'major global player' by doing something (diablerie) that is the worst of the worst for transgressions against the Camarilla - instant death sentence stuff, even for a prince.

There is a Camarilla ending available, involving an older, wiser potential leader who does have his own skeletons in the closet, but is nonetheless genuinely committed to the idea that the Camarilla's various laws and structures, sensibly and mercifully enforced, is the best way of running things. Having that as being separate to the LaCroix side fo things makes it less jarring to get rail-roaded into working for LaCroix (whether as his willing stooge, as a mole, or as a double-agent).

Also, note one very deliberate thing. Remember when the Malk on the beach tells you who you can trust ('the man on the couch' = Mercurio, 'the lone wolf' = Beckett') and who is using you (every other motherfucker who utters any line of dialogue anywhere in the game). Notice that Nines is in the second category.

Not saying that Nines isn't universally acknowledged in-game (save from the aforementioned malk) a stand-up guy. But he's got a revolution to run, and there's something a little bit fucking hypocritical about him calling LaCroix's merciful sparing of you as a PR stunt (makes LaCroix look good, he gets to use you for his shitty tasks and you'll probably get yourself killed in the process anyway), when the exact same thing applies to Nines. Good anarch propaganda, they get you to do their shit-work, and that work will probably get you killed, solving their problem.

Sure, it appears that Nines also would like to help you anyway, simply because he's a decent guy. But again, that applies equally well to LaCroix - his stress and frustration with the pressures of ruling seems quite genuine, and it's clear that he wants to see himself as the kind of 'enlightened ruler' who would execute the law-breaking sire while sparing the innocent off-spring;.

Plus it does feel, on first playthrough, like the developers are pushing you toward the anarchs. But a lot of that is simply because most games train you to take quest-givers at their word. The game puts a hell of a lot of effort into showing the anti-anarch counterargument, e.g. that:
- the anarchs are failing even to control their own small territory, with vampire-born STDs, ghouls threatening the masquerade because their vamp has skipped town and no system in place for another vampire to pick up the slack, goddamn apocalypse cults setting up in the sewers...l
- For every Nines there's a Damsel who you really would not want running the place, and yet there's no clear succession strategy to ensure that doesn't happen (that sounds like bullshit theory-crafting outside the scope of the game, but remember that if you choose to side with the Anarchs it actually throws that issue at you by making it look like fucking Damsel has taken over running the anarchs until it pans out that Nines is still alive;
- the anarchs are giving leader status to absolute monarchs like the Hollywood guy, even though everything about that kind of barony should be 100% contradictory to the anarch's ideology. This seems deliberate. You hear all this great ideological stuff about how left-anarchism can work with vampires in a way that it can't with humans, fuck the man and all that. Then you go to hollywood, and the 'anarch' leader is an old-money absolute royalty who is no different to LaCroix. If that's the pragmatic compromise the anarchs need to make, then what's the point of the whole exercise - it simply proves the Camarilla's claims that top-down rule is necessary to preserve the masquerade.

That doesn't mean that the Camarilla (i.e. the wiser/older 'camarilla prince' ending, not the LaCroix side) are the 'good guys'. Just that it's a lot more balanced than 'Nines saves you twice' suggests on the surface of things.
 
Last edited:

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
I always felt that the Camarilla ending is the wisest. The anarchs are just a group of punks with no idea what is going on or how to keep things together; LaCroix is incompetent and ambitious (a combination of traits I come across in real life quite often and it's profoundly damaging); I have no idea what kind of character would choose the Asian vampires, either really stupid or stupidly power-hungry to a whole-consuming detriment; Independent is the other choice I think is valid, but it kinda puts your character in a bad position after that and is somewhat out-of-character with the whole game (since you've been running errands this whole time).

The Camarilla offers order and structure, while the game doesn't show that they are somehow abusing their power or anything like that, so I think they are "clean", at least as clean as any authority figure/organization can be.
 
Last edited:

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,432
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
It has been so long since I have played this, who do you get the Camarilla ending with? Siding with Strauss?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Jaesun Yes, but it has a few prerequisites - you have to have figured out the riddle, helped Strauss with the gargoyle and NOT tell Isaac about it.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Moving on.

Chinatown feels half-finished. The setpieces so far are really rushed, just throw a mob of SMG-wielding goons at you. Not particularly interesting as combat challenges go. There also seems to be virtually no life outside the crit path here; perhaps I'm missing something but I really do seem to be railroaded from one guy to the next.

Still visually nice, but forgettable -- literally: I don't remember seeing any of these people before despite having completed the game several times. Stuff from the first half OTOH, up to and including VV, Romero, the Gangrel serial killer, the Tzimisce were highly memorable. Feels like a bit of a slog at this point TBH. Few lulzy moments like running into the herbal remedy guy.

It feels like there's a lot of stuff that they wanted to explore but didn't or couldn't, like the faction dynamics inside Chinatown for example. They're suggesting it, but it quickly devolves into cowboys-and-indians without really understanding what the deal is.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
How does one forget fighting a giant shark with legs?

Thought it might just be that I really like the background music of that area so whenever I listen I remember all the content. Even the weird npc blowjob that (I think) was added by wesp's patch.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
How does one forget fighting a giant shark with legs?

I vaguely remember a giant shark with legs and someone dressed as a schoolgirl with a really bad fake accent, but I haven't got that far yet. Just met Ming Xiao, sent to Zhao, survived the Tong ambush, on my way to raid a club.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Oh? Maybe this is one of those times when Wesp diminished the C&C because I went with the Camarilla ending while convincing the gargoyle to help Isaac.

I think you only shouldn't tell Isaac that it's Strauss' gargoyle, you can do whatever else you want.

Chinatown is where it starts getting really tedious and you are just going through the motions. The bit where they are experimenting on you is probably the only highlight, with the shark-on-legs thing being a more humorous aside.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
Camarilla ending is kinda underwhelming anyway. I got it with the Tremere because omigosh Strauss please pat my head.

also:


:mca:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,952
I always felt that the Camarilla ending is the wisest. The anarchs are just a group of punks with no idea what is going on or how to keep things together; LaCroix is incompetent and ambitious (a combination of traits I come across in real life quite often and it's profoundly damaging); I have no idea what kind of character would choose the Asian vampires, either really stupid or stupidly power-hungry to a whole-consuming detriment; Independent is the other choice I think is valid, but it kinda puts your character in a bad position after that and is somewhat out-of-character with the whole game (since you've been running errands this whole time).

The Camarilla offers order and structure, while the game doesn't show that they are somehow abusing their power or anything like that, so I think they are "clean", at least as clean as any authority figure/organization can be.
Agreed. I think Tung tells you the score well enough when you meet him; Camarilla works, and while it has its share of problems, many of them are not because of its structure, but because of individuals involved. This is true for human institutions as well, let alone one of territorial predators that have a beast gnawing at their sanity. Where you have good and competent people in charge things work well, where you don't shit happens. Anarchs are no different, and on top of it they suck at the actual running of things. Their territory disintegrates into domains run by gangs or individuals powerful enough to stake their claim and fuck the rest, while many issues and problems are left ignored until they blow up in a full scale disaster (the eastern invasion, the sabbat incursions, the epidemic, the masquerade breaches).

Anyway, I think what I like the most about this ending is that it completely derails Jack's plans. Instead of blowing someone up the trap is quietly disposed off. Instead of a weak prince there is now a smart one in charge. Instead of weakening the Camarilla presence in LA it is now stronger. It's satisfying to do this to a guy that has spent the entire game directing you like a pawn, even if you never find out you actually did it.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
I always felt that the Camarilla ending is the wisest. The anarchs are just a group of punks with no idea what is going on or how to keep things together; LaCroix is incompetent and ambitious (a combination of traits I come across in real life quite often and it's profoundly damaging); I have no idea what kind of character would choose the Asian vampires, either really stupid or stupidly power-hungry to a whole-consuming detriment; Independent is the other choice I think is valid, but it kinda puts your character in a bad position after that and is somewhat out-of-character with the whole game (since you've been running errands this whole time).

The Camarilla offers order and structure, while the game doesn't show that they are somehow abusing their power or anything like that, so I think they are "clean", at least as clean as any authority figure/organization can be.
Well, I can see someone choosing the Asian vampires out of despair. The Anarchs are the eternal underdogs and if you think LaCroix tried to kill you with a werewolf then that leaves us Strauss, Lone Wolf and Kuei-jin as choices. A paranoid character might see Strauss as possibly diabolical but fail to see Ming's double game.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Problem is that choice is one of going alone politically and the game makes it clear that's suicidal.

Flipping Nines and everyone off was really satisfying tho.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom