Baldur's Gate Planescape: Torment — Original Incarnation. Also, MM, MoP and EED

[CptMace]

Possibly mildly interesting

You sure know how to sell your blog.
How ruthless this forum can be for some to come up with such extremely careful titles.

 

[Pizzashoes]

Yeah, "she" is treating the forum completely transactionally. She didn't post her thoughts on the codex like any member should, and she didn't post in the main PS:T thread because she wanted more hits/attention for her site. On a less prestigious site, I might assume the mods allowed it for the pursuit of tail. Here, I don't know what to think.

 

[Roguey]

It's hilarious and there's been five pages worth of discussion so

 

[Lilura]

Yeah, "she" is treating the forum completely transactionally. She didn't post her thoughts on the codex like any member should, and she didn't post in the main PS:T thread because she wanted more hits/attention for her site. On a less prestigious site, I might assume the mods allowed it for the pursuit of tail. Here, I don't know what to think.

I don't quite understand your fear, 2017 newfag.

1. I don't know how to embed my posts on a forum. Infinitron does and is welcome to edit my OP as such so that people don't have to go to my blog to read it. He often quotes full articles in OPs, anyway.
2. End of OP: "To moderators: Didn't really want to put this in PS:T mega-thread because it's not EE and covers MM generally."
3. I post in many threads, not just my own. I was posting here before I had a blog and will probably post here after I burn out on blogging.

 

[Pizzashoes]

Your reply fits what I am saying. You first deflect by calling me a newfag.
Then you claim that your entire article is worth reading. Posters generally don't create entire articles to articulate their thoughts. Reviewers do. But reviewers create an enormous amount of value to this site by posting their review to the site itself. Posters, on the other hand, just write what they're thinking as they think it and then post. When reviewers want to share their thoughts informally, they post them.
I wrote that the reason why you didn't post in the main PS:T thread was because you wanted more hits for your site. I pointed that out solely to counter your message to the moderators. I am saying that you wrote that as an excuse for your thread. An excuse to give you coverage for your blatant shilling.
Yes, I have read your posts, and I mostly see them, again, as advertising for your blog, which is why I bothered calling you out.

Lastly, madam, I fear nothing.

 

[Lilura]

I didn't deflect anything. It is a fact that you are a newfag and are having a go at me.

Your "counter" is non-existent. I don't want my blog's content bumping lame EE threads.

Please cite where bloggers have posted their entire articles on this site (cite cRPG addict, for example).

Like I said, I don't mind if Infinitron wants to post my articles, citing the source. I get 98% of my traffic direct from Google due to favorable indexing of my King Content.

From this thread, posted 5 days ago, my blog has had 200 views. I have had over 150,000 views this month of Apr.

 

[ga♥]

Imagine the frustration. I search for "monkeys having sex videos" on google and when I click the first result I get 2 pages about NWN mods.

 

[Lilura]

Good to see a l'il butthurt from 'Dex newfags. Keep it comin'.

 

[Pizzashoes]

You brought up my "status" to insult and dismiss me. You attacked me to ignore and deflect from my content. They call it ad hominem or some shit.
My counter is non-existent? I was just analyzing your content. I may have been wrong, your methods may have been only to stroke your ego, but reading someone's motivations is always a murky task.
Infinitron only posts what he deems is newsworthy. This may be blunt, but an 18-year-late criticism of Planescape: Torment doesn't exactly fit the bill. And if you didn't want to bump the EE thread, then I assume you were offering such a critique.
Congratulations. Your 150,000 views this month are cause for celebration. Perhaps not on such a prestigious site as this, but I will drink for your success.

 

[Lilura]

You brought up my "status" to insult and dismiss me. You attacked me to ignore and deflect from my content. They call it ad hominem or some shit.

Standard practice on the 'Dex. Newfags are belittled as a matter-of-course. Grow a thicker skin.

My counter is non-existent? I was just analyzing your content. I may have been wrong, your methods may have been only to stroke your ego, but reading someone's motivations is always a murky task.

I'm actually pretty humble. I also give credit where it's due. If someone knows more than me (and many do), I don't hide it. But newfags with a nigger avatar, and someone called "gay", having a go at me? That is impudence.

Infinitron only posts what he deems is newsworthy. This may be blunt, but an 18-year-late criticism of Planescape: Torment doesn't exactly fit the bill. And if you didn't want to bump the EE thread, then I assume you were offering such a critique.

I'm not talking about newscasts. I'm talking full articles that he posts in here. Again, he has plugged me before and is welcome to do so again. I have plugged the 'Dex on my blog, too.

Congratulations. Your 150,000 views this month are cause for celebration. Perhaps not on such a prestigious site as this, but I will drink for your success.

Thanks. I noticed you posted on my blog, too. Bit of a shitpost, though. Please don't comment anymore.

 

[Pizzashoes]

You are a persistent bitch, huh? My previous post was friendlier before the response, but now I'm getting sucked into some shit-flinging. The black elf female avatar is, of course, ironic.
I mistakenly spoke for such an illustrious man. If he has put your full articles on the site on the same level as either news or the reviews, I apologize.
The "shitpost" used a bit of math in its analysis. It doesn't surprise me that you, either a woman or someone pretending to be one, wouldn't quite get it.

 

[Lilura]

The good thing about shit-flinging is it won't change your appearance.

Infinitron is illustrious? I wouldn't go quite that far. I would say that the 'Dex has inclined on his watch, though.

The article appraises weapons under specific parameters.

 

[laclongquan]

Storyfags are more interested in being led by the nose than they are in choices.

They want to be told how their character feels, which is what PS:T often does for TNO.

False spiritual successor Numenera aside, I can't even think of an RPG, off-hand, that would qualify as a storyfag RPG, other than PS:T. And its true spiritual successor Mask of the Betrayer reduced cascading text dramatically and emphasized reactivity instead.

Better ruleset, itemization and combat, too. Also, more meaningfully non-linear.

As such, I have replayed MotB much more often than PS:T.

As such, you are more of a gameplay fag girl than a storyfag.

As for storyfag games, probabbly ALpha Protocol. I havent played it yet and what I read doesnt encourage me to do so, despite its glowing fan review. Which say storyfag game right there.

 

[Pizzashoes]

My post in question actually couches my analysis pretty well. The Storm Star +5 is the best weapon only in its area of effect damage. I only wanted to challenge you because you didn't even mention it. But in something like the Drow Woman's fortress with the hordes of monsters, the weapon's proc should kill everything. I didn't write anything arrogantly. I meekly suggested you might want to consider it. And you bring it up here to damage my reputation? I have no reputation, as you've said yourself.

I am only trying to say you're shilling your site too much. I actually enjoy your posts. You're an intelligent person.

 

[Lilura]

SS +5 doesn't get much use. That's all there is to say.

I'm stimulating conversation on the 'Dex. Hits on the 'Dex are hits on the 'Dex. Only the newfags have tried to bring this thread down. There were some pretty good posts in here before you started.

 

[Pizzashoes]

Of course, because I started in on tearing this thread a new one. Also "not gets much use" is so far from a shitpost. I'm glad you've started to accept me.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Repeating what I said in write-up, PS:T doesn't balance dialogue with combat and other considerations. Fallout, Deus Ex and Jagged Alliance 2 did .

Come on, either Fallout does not belong on this list, or Deus Ex and JA2 don’t belong (there was a lot of talking in Fallout!). Unless you’re saying you can only stomach large quantities of dialogue when it’s packaged in very concise installments. Anyway, I don’t think even PS:T’s most ardent supporters would call it a balanced experience; they simply love the way in which it’s unbalanced. Just as you love the way JA2 is very combat heavy for an RPG (but maybe it’s a little talk heavy for a squad based tactics game).

Just tried maximizing my XP gain in dialogue with Ravel as Mage TNO. Again, it's like pulling teeth. Why do people like this shit?

Playing PS:T as it was meant to be played upon release, by power-gaming the shit out of it! Seriously, though, the gameplay loop in Torment makes this style of play really unrewarding. In an RPG where the loop is kill shit —> level up/get new gear —-> kill stronger shit, then spending time to milk a conversation for extra XP might be worth something. In Torment, what is that extra XP really worth? You can build the best possible character with the best possible gear, and that does what exactly? You go through the Modron Maze more quickly?

Love it or hate it, the loop in Torment is about unlocking more dialogue options. I doubt you need the extra stat points. So why go through Ravel multiple times to unlock the maximum XP rewards?

Let me put it like this: if I tried to play Baldur’s Gate like it was Torment, or Fallout, or Arcanum—a dialogue heavy game with tons of skill/stat checks—I would find it to be a ridiculously shallow and disappointing experience. There’s very little in there to scratch that itch. But they were never trying to scratch that itch in the first place (I know IWD does both, but being able to design your whole party trivializes the skill checks). By the same token, you’re pushing on a string when you power-game Torment.

tl;dr the game is more fun if you resist the urge to LARP as a standard power hungry adventurer with a save system time machine.

***

You guys talking about Solider in the Mist triggered my autism: the main character doesn’t tattoo himself, he keeps a diary on a scroll of papyrus. There’s not a lot of Gene Wolf in this game; it’s much more like Zelazny’s Nine Princes in Amber, as MCA said. I will be more willing to believe he lifted things from Pages of Pain if anyone making this argument can actually bring themselves to read the book. God knows, I couldn’t do it.

 

[Pizzashoes]

The game was meant to be played by powergaming the shit out of it? I don't buy it, my friend. MCA doesn't powergame. We know that he plays on easier difficulties. He is, as we would say, a storyfag. Torment is an extreme example of storyfagging over combat. Every part of it functions for the story with the combat as an aside. I say this because playthroughs are nonsensically hard without metagaming. I can barely complete the combat in PS:T without resorting to kiting or some other nonsense.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

The game was meant to be played by powergaming the shit out of it? I don't buy it, my friend. MCA doesn't powergame. We know that he plays on easier difficulties. He is, as we would say, a storyfag. Torment is an extreme example of storyfagging over combat. Every part of it functions for the story with the combat as an aside. I say this because playthroughs are nonsensically hard without metagaming. I can barely complete the combat in PS:T without resorting to kiting or some other nonsense.

Have you no sense of irony?

 

[Pizzashoes]

I admit I didn't fully read your comment. You wrote all of that and I only read half of it. I apologize. Planescape: Torment should be roleplayed, not powergamed. The game even encourages roleplaying more than most games by not giving a game-over on death. Just an encouragement to give it another try.

On the other hand, I do dislike PS:T's stat checks. Yes, I ascribe to that highest of heresy. But when a stat requirement is locked to 24 and my character is built to have 23 of that stat, what am I supposed to feel? Satisfaction? The urge to replay an old game with shit combat?

I definitely feel that games should tailor themselves to the player's choice of stats. That is so anti-Age of Decadence, but it's what I think. I think games should dynamically adjust to the player's build. I think anything else just assumes the player will autistically try to play every possible route in the game. But games shouldn't assume the players want to do that. They should assume the players might not want to do that.

 

[Lilura]

Kyl Von Kull: Let me try to distill why I am criticizing PS:T like I am:

PS:T is a AD&D game. AD&D is about combat. Therefore, PS:T should have decent combat (it doesn't have as much combat as BG and IWD, but it still has quite a bit, along with lots of interesting weapons and spells, and yet its combat mechanics and encounter design are utter shit).

PS:T is built on IE. When it came out, we already had BG and TotSC. It is therefore not unreasonable to expect decent combat. So yeah, PS:T is obviously heavily influenced by BG (same engine), but it is also heavily influenced by Fallout which did everything better than PS:T and had decent combat. Please don't try and tell me Fallout's combat was shit; tbqh, I write off anyone who says it doesn't have some merit: PS:T combat has no merit. At least FO combat is fun and quirky, with death anims and targeting. Plus, TB.

You don't know that BIS weren't trying to scratch that itch. Maybe they ran out of money/time in dev-cycle. PS:T wasn't designed from the outset to have shit combat. I can't cite where Avellone said that himself but no citations are forthcoming where he is on the record as saying the contrary. The manual also says nothing about it. A good no. of pages in manual are given over to combat-based stuff, not to dialogue. It talks about THAC0, AC etc. because THEY MATTER. Play the game. I can't post write-ups like I have if spells and mundane fighting don't matter. Regardless, can we take Avellone's word, past present or future? Or any dev? What does dev intent matter? The above two points override it for me and are enough to justify my criticism of PS:T's combat.

It's supposed to be AD&D. It's for fans coming off BG and FO. It doesn't match either as a game. Ergo, criticism.

Also, powergaming Ravel's dialogue? Maybe you don't remember how rewarding it is for a Mage TNO. When you start seeing 90k XP float up your screen, and companions saying they're leveling up, you're gonna hunt for similarly rewarding threads. You may come out with in excess of 1mil XP not to mention material rewards and perma-boosts. People WILL reload to find more. You can even get the game over screen by killing her too early (no warning of this).

It's shit design.

 

[Elex]

Kyl Von Kull: Let me try to distill why I am criticizing PS:T like I am:

PS:T is a AD&D game. AD&D is about combat. Therefore, PS:T should have decent combat (it doesn't have as much combat as BG and IWD, but it still has quite a bit, along with lots of interesting weapons and spells, and yet its combat mechanics and encounter design are utter shit).

PS:T is built on IE. When it came out, we already had BG and TotSC. It is therefore not unreasonable to expect decent combat. So yeah, PS:T is obviously heavily influenced by BG (same engine), but it is also heavily influenced by Fallout which did everything better than PS:T and had decent combat. Please don't try and tell me Fallout's combat was shit; tbqh, I write off anyone who says it doesn't have some merit: PS:T combat has no merit. At least FO combat is fun and quirky, with death anims and targeting. Plus, TB.

You don't know that BIS weren't trying to scratch that itch. Maybe they ran out of money/time in dev-cycle. PS:T wasn't designed from the outset to have shit combat. I can't cite where Avellone said that himself but no citations are forthcoming where he is on the record as saying the contrary. The manual also says nothing about it. A good no. of pages in manual are given over to combat-based stuff, not to dialogue. It talks about THAC0, AC etc. because THEY MATTER. Play the game. I can't post write-ups like I have if spells and mundane fighting don't matter. Regardless, can we take Avellone's word, past present or future? Or any dev? What does dev intent matter? The above two points override it for me and are enough to justify my criticism of PS:T's combat.

It's supposed to be AD&D. It's for fans coming off BG and FO. It doesn't match either as a game. Ergo, criticism.

Also, powergaming Ravel's dialogue? Maybe you don't remember how rewarding it is for a Mage TNO. When you start seeing 90k XP float up your screen, and companions saying they're leveling up, you're gonna hunt for similarly rewarding threads. You may come out with in excess of 1mil XP not to mention material rewards and perma-boosts. People WILL reload to find more. You can even get the game over screen by killing her too early (no warning of this).

It's shit design.

what can change the nature of AD&D?

 

[Lilura]

Also, the manual talks about death not mattering to TNO. Well, it sort of does. You really don't want to die over and over again in a dungeon because that means backtracking to where you were and trying again. This is why combat matters. THAC0, AC, spells, DR, regen, consumables: they are all in the game for a reason. To overcome aggro. (And there is quite a bit of aggro; it is a lie to say otherwise or talk about the passive run like it's "by design". I will be disproving this lie in future post that will go through every area and show that passive runs are simply foreknowledge/meta-game wankery for posers.)

But it's not just TNO dieing that's the problem, is it? Companions that die don't respawn. They are not immortal. They also don't reheal upon resurrection (assuming TNO has the ability or Grace has the spell). Dak'kon is the only companion that can get regen, and, like I said in the write-up, it's only Kagain-lvl regen. Thus, one needs to rest to get HP pool back if they don't have charms out the ass (from farming) or Grace at decent level for enough spells to be a true healbot. Plus, resting results in respawns or is outright banned. This means what? Backtracking to Flophouse or similar rest-post.

Combat matters and death matters.

So the manual Intro misleads.

 

[Roguey]

You don't know that BIS weren't trying to scratch that itch. Maybe they ran out of money/time in dev-cycle. PS:T wasn't designed from the outset to have shit combat. I can't cite where Avellone said that himself but no citations are forthcoming where he is on the record as saying the contrary.

Ancient interview https://web.archive.org/web/20080801091607/http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art39332.asp

Lisa: If you were making Planescape: Torment right now, are there things you would do differently from the original release?

Chris: Probably start off with more combat - the beginning is very slow and exposition-heavy, and I don't think that helps get the player into the mystery of his character. This is something I tried to correct in the future opening levels of Black Isle games (notably IWD2, where you're in trouble the moment you step off the boat in Targos). Also, I would work more extensively in creating more dungeon and exploration areas, and do another pass on the combat mechanics in the game - the story and quest structure in the game ended up becoming the primary focus of design, and I think the game suffered as a whole when it came to combat.

 

[Infinitron]

He'd probably say that it wasn't enough, but it seems like Avellone forgets that one of the first things he had you do in PS:T was stab a zombie to death. The "start the game out with some combat" directive may have already existed at that point.