Piracy Discussion - Discuss!

[Grim Monk]

I despise nearly everything about the way "Copyright" works these days, and by the actions routinely taken by the "IP Owners/Protectors"...

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

When I was a kid my parents had little money to give, so I stole books from the bookstores to just have something to read apart from granny's shit.
Then I started to steal money and cigarettes from my buddies.
When I got my first PC in 1997, I started to steal CDs from the stores.
Torrents bore me, because there is no action, but that's not the point.

I never got caught. Not a single time.
So I guess, if no one catches you stealing - you haven't stole anything, and if you haven't stole anything - you're not a thief.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

downloading games is illegal.
false advertising is illegal.
corruption is illegal.

i don't feel so much in the wrong when i download something which has been sold as the best game ever and some paid guy told me it was the best game ever only to discover it's the worst shit ever.

 

[Metro]

Said it before in other threads but everyone with a pet peeve against IP laws wouldn't have the same opinion if it were their property at stake. You might as well hate capitalism, too. I don't see why something ceases to be yours because of the passage of time.

 

[ghostdog]

Where is that incredible thread where the "not removing from an inventory" meme originated ? It should be stickied for oldfags to remember and newfags to get banned.

 

[DeepOcean]

Pirating was made kinda irrelevant, nowdays, you just need to use the IGN method: look to the review if it's full of non-sense words like visceral, cinematic, realistic, experience, revolutionary, immersive, streamlined , accessible, Citizen Kane successor, empowering women or paragraphs and more paragraphs about the story or graphics, you know the gameplay is shit and you shouldn't even bother pirating it. Emulating is okay for me because there is no way I'm buying a console, and a unsupported and outdated console on top of that. Activision and EA made the decision of pirate or not pirate very straightfoward, they produce so much terrible trash that pirating their games is akin to morbid curiosity.

 

[Gord]

Ah, good old piracy discussions...
When did we last discuss what constitutes an RPG, by the way? Long overdue, methinks.

Anyway, imho it's not a problem with an easy answer, but there are a few thoughts I have on the matter.

"I don't pay for games when the developers don't get money anymore"

How many developers do get a share? Not that many, I'd wager. Should every guy who contributed a line of code or a small piece of artwork receive a share out of every unit sold, until all eternity?
Ultimately the important point is: They got paid for making the game. They entered a contract that gave them a fixed amount/monthly payment and made the game. This is probably how the majority of devs earn their living. And guess who gave them the money? Publishers.
So it's not so easy as saying "I don't want to pay the evul publishers, but only the devs who do the real work". If that's your intention, restrict yourself to indies or other self-published games. If you want to support devs, most of the time that means giving money to a publisher.

"The copyright law is absurd. Disney is an evil, greedy company"

True, at least somewhat. Lobbyism is a huge problem at the heart of our democracy. However, it might be better to fight it through legal channels than by giving them more ammunition in their quest to anal-rape their customers ever more.

"There shouldn't be any copyright/intellectual property"

As Metro said, once they are affected themselves, most people will likely think different. More honest would probably be "Other people shouldn't have intellectual property" . Whatever our opinion on it, I still like to consider one thing: Evul publishers and greedy corporations aside, copyright and IP laws do still offer some protection for the artists as well. There are more reasons for it than just maximising profit/shareholder value of some mega-corp. Amongst them, giving artists a possibility to live from their work - not every musician/composer/writer/painter can live from live performances or exhibitions.
With the raise of the internets (at least unless capitalism manages to transform it into yet another pure money-making machine), there are many new possibilities for artists to earn a living from their works without the need of big publishers behind them, yet I wouldn't completely give up on copyright just yet. Too many people are cheapskates for that, I'm afraid. I do think that we are in need of reforms that favor customers and artists, though (as opposed to publishers/corporations).

"I can't afford games unless I pirate them"

Sucks to be you. In truth, I did it much the same during school, and it's true that this is somewhat responsible for my gaming addiction.
Legally it doesn't change anything, but I don't really give a fuck about a bunch of kids (3rd worldians) exchanging their games on the schoolyard (in their slums).
On the on the other hand, never before it was so easy to get even AAA (I won't judge you for your tastes) games for cheap. If you can wait a few months, almost everything will be made available at 75% off or less during some sale.

"Games are too expensive, even though I could afford them, I refuse to pay the price"

So are luxury cars, apple products, etc. If you don't like the price, don't pay it and wait until you can get it cheaper, see the previous point.
Imho, it sends a stronger signal if people wait for a sale than people pirating the games.

"I need to demo the game before I buy it"

Go ahead, if you buy it if you like it, in my eyes that seems ok. There should be more demos indeed.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The IP industry is just another way of transferring hard work of people from developing countries to first worlders to the west for nothing.
Buying games for western prices is a treason and treason is much worse than unauthorized copying.

It's illegal because someone owns the rights to them even if that someone is a third party that had no hand in creating it. They don't cease to lose their rights to something just because they're arguably mismanaging it. Also it's not as if a video game is a herd of cattle or some natural resource that can be squandered or suffer amelioration. The Gold Box games are still the Gold Box games even if they aren't available for purchase anywhere. They're aren't melting or getting worse.

Cultural phenomena only exist as long there are people experiencing and remembering them. Games don't exist without being played, movies don't exist without being watched, songs don't exist without being listened to.

Would you want someone to tell you what to do with your property?

You mean like the state is making someone's IP available for free in libraries, allowing people to use many IPs without paying for using them?
Since I'm allowed to read hundreds of books without paying for them, should I cry if games or other hypothetical works that I don't support anymore are made legal to share after a decade or a similar period of time?

 

[JarlFrank]

I pirate freely and don't give a fuck.

I've grown up with pirated games, back in the early 90s my dad would bring PC games on copied floppies he got from his workmates. We had the Monkey Island games, Commander Keen games, Might and Magic games, Eye of the Beholder, Duke Nukem 1 and 2... all of them on copied floppies. Of course, I continued this tradition in the late 90s, copying CDs from schoolmates and rarely buying games myself - if either the game's DRM was too advanced for CloneCD, the CD-burning program I used back then, or none of my friends had it, in which case I would of course make copies for my friends, we always shared our games among each other. When a dude from Romania came to Germany and went to our school, piracy in our class went up even more because in the summer holidays he'd always return to Romania and buy huge game collections from local crackers for like 5 euros. This was an awesome source of new games, and his just buying LOTS of games to try them out led to us discovering Arcanum. He showed me that game and said "the cracker in Romania said this games is really amazing", so we tried it out. First impression was underwhelming but then it grew to become our favourite game ever. Without piracy, I would never even have heard of Arcanum before joining the Codex, I suspect.

And, of course, with a history like that I use torrents today without giving a fuck. I've grown up with piracy, it just comes natural to me.

 

[Jasede]

How can you live with that sort of view?

If you were a developer, would you not wish to be paid for your craft? Do you truly expect to keep getting good games when the developers do not get their due?


I will tell you what would happen if there was no copyright. The only games you'd get would be on par with freeware; you could forget about getting the next big RPG and you can bury this hobby forever because you will never again get any decent games.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, and I do buy some games because I want to support the developers. I bought some good indies I enjoyed, I bought the Witcher games because I enjoyed them, I buy most of the Total War games, and I paid for some of the promising kickstarter RPGs. But I still pirate 90% of my games, be they old ones that are only available on ebay anymore or AAA+ stuff from big publishers.

 

[Jasede]

I guess so, but it still makes the idea of being a game developer an unhappy one. But fear not, I am sure we'll develop better, more intrusive DRM so that good games still have a future!


For all my talk about morale I am a dirty hypocrite, anyway. I do buy 90% of my games but there's plenty I do not: the ones I can not easily get, old games, some indies that I feel are not worth the fee, and so on. So don't think I am not aware of the hypocrisy; but please, for all that is good, buy good games. Games are one of the few things that help me forget our world; if they were to be gone I think things would be very hard.

 

[taxalot]

It's legal if you don't get caught.

 

[FeelTheRads]

When I started having money to buy games, they went to shit, so I still don't, except old games from ebay and some kickstarters now. But I don't really pirate that much anymore either.
So hurray, be happy that I don't download or buy your shitty games. Your goal has been achieved.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Said it before in other threads but everyone with a pet peeve against IP laws wouldn't have the same opinion if it were their property at stake. You might as well hate capitalism, too. I don't see why something ceases to be yours because of the passage of time.

You want to start paying royalties for the use of fire? Pennicilin? Electricity?

Something ceases to be yours with the passage of time because it is of benefit to the majority of people if the entire world isn't owned by a single fucking person who keeps most of it locked in his Scrooge McDuck moneybin.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Skyrim isn't of benefit to the majority of people, though. It's a detriment and should be avoided whenever possible.

 

[Metro]

Said it before in other threads but everyone with a pet peeve against IP laws wouldn't have the same opinion if it were their property at stake. You might as well hate capitalism, too. I don't see why something ceases to be yours because of the passage of time.

You want to start paying royalties for the use of fire? Pennicilin? Electricity?

Something ceases to be yours with the passage of time because it is of benefit to the majority of people if the entire world isn't owned by a single fucking person who keeps most of it locked in his Scrooge McDuck moneybin.

Horrible analogies.

 

[Damned Registrations]

True enough, but someone could potentially make a mod of it that would be good. Which is another example of IP law being retarded. All those fan made patches and mods for games? Even the ones that just fix game breaking bugs? Made illegally. Hope New World Computing can still be bothered to mail you some new floppies for Might and Magic 3 if you don't want to buy the game again. There are also servers put up by fans to keep the communities going for online games that have been abandoned by their publishers. Totally illegal.

One should not have the right to 'destroy' one's own IP because it isn't profitable to you. If someone invents some fucking Jesus Boots that let you walk on water, but Nike doesn't want to compete, buys them out, and then never makes any themselves because they're 1% less profitable than normal shoes, the whole world except Nike suffers. Fuck that. And fuck publishers that buy IP rights just so they can make shitty games and not face competition from excellent games. It's puppy-kicking levels of cartoon evil and it should not be legally, let alone morally defensible.

 

[Coriolanus]

Emulating games you do not own is illegal.

True. Though paying cash for games when the original developers don't receive their cut is Lawful-Dumb. Buying the cart second-hand off of E-Bay would be of no benefit to them.

In theory it should benefit new developers, as a lively second-hand market means people will be more willing to buy new games.

 

[Metro]

True enough, but someone could potentially make a mod of it that would be good. Which is another example of IP law being retarded. All those fan made patches and mods for games? Even the ones that just fix game breaking bugs? Made illegally. Hope New World Computing can still be bothered to mail you some new floppies for Might and Magic 3 if you don't want to buy the game again. There are also servers put up by fans to keep the communities going for online games that have been abandoned by their publishers. Totally illegal.

One should not have the right to 'destroy' one's own IP because it isn't profitable to you. If someone invents some fucking Jesus Boots that let you walk on water, but Nike doesn't want to compete, buys them out, and then never makes any themselves because they're 1% less profitable than normal shoes, the whole world except Nike suffers. Fuck that. And fuck publishers that buy IP rights just so they can make shitty games and not face competition from excellent games. It's puppy-kicking levels of cartoon evil and it should not be legally, let alone morally defensible.

One should have the right to do whatever the fuck they want with their property. Should change your furfag avatar from a Nazi to a Communist.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I used to pirate games when I was a dirt poor student with no money. Now I don't, because I'm not poor anymore, and various options to pay the price I deem fair for a particular game (sales and bundles mostly) have emerged. Most new games are shit in any case, and not worth playing at all.

Along those lines, the one exception nowadays are emulated console games. Now, if there were a service that allowed me to buy old console games for $10 like GOG does, I would've paid for them. I guess once I buy a used PS3 I'll get some of them from PSN, maybe someone will take note and greenlight a new 2D Castlevania or something. But I'm not going to pay $100+ on Ebay for a copy of something that can be manufactured at no cost.

 

[Cool name]

She is speaking in tongues; get the priest!

To recite Espronceda is not to speak in tongues but to speak in beauty.

How can you live with that sort of view?

It is quite easy. One does have a choice: She can try to get as much out of life as possible and fuck the consequences, or she can play by the rules of people who do not have her wellbeing in mind. And no matter how much you can do by playing by the rules, you could do SO MUCH MORE if you did not. So do you want to be and have everything you could be and have no matter who do you screw along the way or do you want to be and have just what you are allowed to be by people who just doesn't care? Once you make that choice in honesty it is quite easy to live with it, one way or another.

The game developer says 'Pay me or don't play mah game.' He obviously does not have your benefit and wellbeing in mind. He does not even care about you. Why should you have his, then? Your pirate bros, meanwhile, do thingies for you without asking for anything in return. So remember to seed and keep obscure torrents alive and upload hard to find shit to direct download servers. Don't be an ass.

 

[Metro]

One should not herp without providing some derp.

 

[Jvegi]

Piracy is wrong because it infringes on the rights of the creator/IP owner, to do with his property as he likes. I do it anyway, but I couldn't justify it morally without being inconsistent and hypocritical. The system might not work, but the principle is still valid.

 

[sea]

For "moral" reasons, I like to buy games, mostly because I want to support the people making them and because I know how much work goes into your average game - even the smallest things can take dozens of hours, for instance, and even a decent game is usually the result of huge amounts of talent and passion that I feel is worth rewarding. I have no problem paying money for entertainment, because it's a service provided me and that's how our economy works.

But, that said, I also have no problem pirating games. I usually justify it in one of these ways:

• It's an older game and the company/people who made it won't be receiving any money from me if I buy it anymore, and their sales figures also no longer matter, so it doesn't matter
• I already own the game somewhere else (i.e. emulating console games)
• There's no good way to demo the game, so I need to pirate it to have an idea of how it plays before I make my decision
• The game has a ridiculous DRM scheme that I am not going to support through a purchase

Sometimes, I do buy games that I have pirated because it turns out I do like the game and want to support the developers. Dishonored was one such game like that; I bought it at full price about a week after pirating it. I rarely, if ever, pirate a brand-new game and then complete it end-to-end or put significant hours into it without buying it at some point.

Piracy isn't really a "moral" problem though, it's a service problem as many have identified - whether that's a poor quality game, restrictive terms of use/DRM, lack of convenience in being able to purchase it, the game leaks early and people want to try it out, etc. The people who are pirating most games likely would not buy it otherwise, because the people who are buying your game want to buy your game, and those who do resort to piracy are usually either not potential customers, or they're people who have resorted to piracy for what they see as deficiencies in the publisher service.

There are also plenty of logical arguments for why the current copyright model doesn't work for games:

• Piracy has a positive benefit on expanding the audience of a product and can lead to good publicity and more sales
• Giving eternal monopoly to a corporation that owns a game is not beneficial for society (on a cultural level) and for consumers (on an individual level)
• Online game piracy is not something that can be directly compared to other forms of copyright infringement (i.e. it's not the same as copying that floppy)
• It infringes on fair use and other laws of the land (i.e. can't share a game purchased digitally with friends, don't actually own the product you paid for which is illegal in some countries)
• The laws were created for a completely different time period, cultural situation and market; they do not reflect current realities of our society

Piracy is wrong because it infringes on the rights of the creator/IP owner, to do with his property as he likes. I do it anyway, but I couldn't justify it morally without being inconsistent and hypocritical. The system might not work, but the principle is still valid.

As I've done above, there are ways to justify piracy along moral lines. Piracy is not "copyright infringement" in the same way that taking someone's product and then trying to sell it yourself, or stealing a drawing and saying you drew it, or using someone else's logo, is.