Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Sensuki]

By the way Sensuki, have you played IWD2? I have to wonder what you think of it given your stance on Josh Sawyer's design philosophy.

Yeah I've played it and I haven't finished it. It's the worst of the BG/IWD games IMO. Farthest I've got is where you're just about to go to the Underdark. For some reason I've always got bored and played something else around there. I'd like to finish it someday because apparently there's better content up ahead.

There's some technical bits about it that are good, the advanced scripting they use with Orc War Drummers and reinforcements and stuff like that.

 

[Metal Hurlant]

For years whenever I tried to play IWD2, I stopped when you get to Dragon's Eye and gave up. I decided around when the PoE KS started to give IWD2 one last chance and finish it which I did. Disappointing overall and agree with Sensuki it's the worst of the BG/IWD games. I'd rank it as the worse IE game and have never gone back to play it again. And I can see a lot of PoE from IWD2.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Infinitron]

Seems like an "iced over volcano" is going to be a major setpiece in the second part of the expansion: https://twitter.com/GeneseDavis/status/620060389540102144

 

[Merlkir]

I hope they do more of the Choose Your Adventure interactions, with skill checks and shit, there weren't nearly enough in PoE.

 

[Roguey]

Haha some of you guise are mad because you didn't get to vote on superficial details.

 

[Zeronet]

I wish Obsidian did have that attitude towards backers, then the game wouldn't be filled with non-interactive godlikes.

 

[Atchodas]

I wish Obsidian did have that attitude towards backers, then the game wouldn't be filled with non-interactive godlikes.

Hey cmon now , you can reach into their soul and read their amazing story

 

[Irenaeus II]

That panel was awesome, nice to see Obsy interacting with the audience. Can't wait to play this.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

That panel was awesome, nice to see Obsy interacting with the audience. Can't wait to play this.

Do you have a link where I can watch it?

 

[Neanderthal]

Yeah I've played it and I haven't finished it. It's the worst of the BG/IWD games IMO. Farthest I've got is where you're just about to go to the Underdark. For some reason I've always got bored and played something else around there. I'd like to finish it someday because apparently there's better content up ahead.

There's some technical bits about it that are good, the advanced scripting they use with Orc War Drummers and reinforcements and stuff like that.

Personally I always thought that IWD2 was a victim of its scope, the beginning was a nice change of pace, and the setting of Targos sprang to life with some lustre thanks to the quite uncommon and well implemented siege setting. Personally i'd have transplanted that siege to Kuldahar, which was a charming setting that just cried out for more detail in IWD1, and returning to that locale was the high point of IWD2. It would have allowed far more detail in the limited setting, expanded on locales we knew and remembered, and expanded on the history of that area. Less scope, more depth and reactivity.

As it was however, well the game was flawed and a little sterile, with no real grab to it. The Underdark for me was just a painfully dull slog, and when compared to BG2 that is a crying shame. Good start, good-ish end, really piss poor flabby middle.

 

[dukeofwhales]

I may be misremembering, but I thought the underdark was only about 3 maps in IWD2? A short (and not unpleasant) stopover and nothing more. The Ice Temple was the low point for me, but generally the content was good- just scattered and unfocussed, whereas IWD felt very comfortable in its smaller scope and its "five or six big dungeons and a small town" format.

 

[roshan]

The problem with Icewind Dale 2 is it's just plain old fucking boring. And Sawyer was responsible for that. The loot tables are shit. How many returning frost darts would you find in the entire game? Probably 10 or more. And you know what the stupid thing is? That's the best dart you can reasonably find in a playthrough. So you find the best dart in the game almost right at the beginning, and then you keep finding the same fucking thing over and over. Can you say designed by a complete fucktard?

Take another example - great swords. You can play through half of the game without finding a single magic greatsword. And then you find a shitty one that also happens to be the best one in the game. Just absolutely terrible design.

Also the entire middle part of the game is weak and mostly filled with trash combat and disgustingly bad encounter design. The Ice Temple is the worst, almost 90% of my playthroughs end somewhere in frustration and boredom in the Ice Temple. But many areas after that are also terrible such as the Fellwood and most of those small maps you end up passing through.

 

[Metal Hurlant]

Roshan nailed it. Loot tables are horrendous.

However, what put me over the edge was the ending of IWD 2 was a big FU to the player.

 

[roshan]

BTW, It's funny how much of my criticism of NWN2 back in 2007 on the Obsidian forums applies very much to Pillars of Shitternity which follows many of the same questionable "design" decisions. For example:

Considering that most players are going to reload in a CRPG to ensure that no one dies, I'm not convinced that "for real" death is something worth modeling in most CRPGs.

I do not see what is wrong with people reloading if one of their characters has died in a battle. Winning a hard battle with everyone still standing is obviously more difficult than winning with half of your party dead. Keeping everyone alive - if a player decides to make it his/her goal - becomes a part of the challenge and requires additional skill from the player.

Players reload when they have failed to achieve their objectives. Through reloading players are able to try new strategies and develop their skills to succeed at their goal. If you eliminate reloading, you eliminate the possibility of failure. If you create a game where there is no chance of failure, you end up with a "dumb" game like NWN2 which requires absolutely nothing from players in terms of mental or physical capability.

Obshitian.... Obshitian never changes.

 

[Infinitron]

BTW, It's funny how much of my criticism of NWN2 back in 2007 on the Obsidian forums applies very much to Pillars of Shitternity which follows many of the same questionable "design" decisions. For example:

Considering that most players are going to reload in a CRPG to ensure that no one dies, I'm not convinced that "for real" death is something worth modeling in most CRPGs.

I do not see what is wrong with people reloading if one of their characters has died in a battle. Winning a hard battle with everyone still standing is obviously more difficult than winning with half of your party dead. Keeping everyone alive - if a player decides to make it his/her goal - becomes a part of the challenge and requires additional skill from the player.

Players reload when they have failed to achieve their objectives. Through reloading players are able to try new strategies and develop their skills to succeed at their goal. If you eliminate reloading, you eliminate the possibility of failure. If you create a game where there is no chance of failure, you end up with a "dumb" game like NWN2 which requires absolutely nothing from players in terms of mental or physical capability.

Obshitian.... Obshitian never changes.

You are a Banner Saga fan

 

[roshan]

You are a Banner Saga fan

Yeah, it's a good game but the design is different because the game doesn't allow you to spam reload, and my expectations for it were different because it's not purported to be a spiritual successor to the IE. Also it is radically different from the isometric RPGs in terms of mechanics and structure. That being said, I don't think it's perfect. If I were to redesign it though, I'd do it traditional, require people to get through with their characters alive, but allow them to reload battles without trouble, and ramp up the difficulty. I understand though that due to story purposes characters are required to survive certain battles. What I'd do in that case is make "dead" characters that survive due to plot purposes permanently and irreversibly maimed with -2 across the board to all stats (which is a really severe penalty in the Banner Saga system) or perhaps -1 across the board in easy mode. The penalties would stack, so a character that has died a few times will end up being completely useless in combat.

 

[Volrath]

The problem with Icewind Dale 2 is it's just plain old fucking boring. And Sawyer was responsible for that. The loot tables are shit. How many returning frost darts would you find in the entire game? Probably 10 or more. And you know what the stupid thing is? That's the best dart you can reasonably find in a playthrough. So you find the best dart in the game almost right at the beginning, and then you keep finding the same fucking thing over and over. Can you say designed by a complete fucktard?

Take another example - great swords. You can play through half of the game without finding a single magic greatsword. And then you find a shitty one that also happens to be the best one in the game. Just absolutely terrible design.

Also the entire middle part of the game is weak and mostly filled with trash combat and disgustingly bad encounter design. The Ice Temple is the worst, almost 90% of my playthroughs end somewhere in frustration and boredom in the Ice Temple. But many areas after that are also terrible such as the Fellwood and most of those small maps you end up passing through.

Sensuki brofists this

 

[Roguey]

Since I liked IWD2, too much combat aside, looks like the Pillars experience is going to be fantastic for me.

 

[Irenaeus II]

BTW, It's funny how much of my criticism of NWN2 back in 2007 on the Obsidian forums applies very much to Pillars of Shitternity which follows many of the same questionable "design" decisions. For example:

Considering that most players are going to reload in a CRPG to ensure that no one dies, I'm not convinced that "for real" death is something worth modeling in most CRPGs.

I do not see what is wrong with people reloading if one of their characters has died in a battle. Winning a hard battle with everyone still standing is obviously more difficult than winning with half of your party dead. Keeping everyone alive - if a player decides to make it his/her goal - becomes a part of the challenge and requires additional skill from the player.

Players reload when they have failed to achieve their objectives. Through reloading players are able to try new strategies and develop their skills to succeed at their goal. If you eliminate reloading, you eliminate the possibility of failure. If you create a game where there is no chance of failure, you end up with a "dumb" game like NWN2 which requires absolutely nothing from players in terms of mental or physical capability.

Obshitian.... Obshitian never changes.

You are a Banner Saga fan

hahaha I knew this guy was a retard from the start.

 

[Sensuki]

You are a Banner Saga fan

So am I.

Games like The Banner Saga and Expeditions: Conquistador are different to games like Pillars of Eternity.

In The Banner Saga for example, as you go on it becomes increasingly harder/impossible to keep everyone alive in combat, so you're often fighting for best case scenario. Reloading the game/doing it again will not make much difference on the outcome of the battle.

In Pillars of Eternity you can easily do every battle with everyone alive at the end. You may not get it right on the first go, hence the reason to reload.

 

[Dorateen]

The battle for the Holy Avenger in Icewind Dale 2 was one of the best set-piece encounters of any of the Infnity Engine games.

And the lore behind the blade (split into two different parts that had to be reunited) was on of its finest moments of writing.

 

[Lord Andre]

The battle for the Holy Avenger in Icewind Dale 2 was one of the best set-piece encounters of any of the Infnity Engine games.

And the lore behind the blade (split into two different parts that had to be reunited) was on of its finest moments of writing.

It was a piece of shit longsword, meanwhile the only worthwhile 2handers are dropped by the half-demons (cambions?) at the end and can't even be wielded unless you're evil. Itemization was shit.

 

[Dorateen]

The battle for the Holy Avenger in Icewind Dale 2 was one of the best set-piece encounters of any of the Infnity Engine games.

And the lore behind the blade (split into two different parts that had to be reunited) was on of its finest moments of writing.

It was a piece of shit longsword, meanwhile the only worthwhile 2handers are dropped by the half-demons (cambions?) at the end and can't even be wielded unless you're evil. Itemization was shit.

Pale Justice from the original Icewind Dale was a better weapon. However, I was talking about Cera Sumat's backstory and the quality of the encounter.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Retrain character