Pathfinder vs. Divinity 2 vs. Pillars 2

[JohnSmith24601]

I never knew Kingmaker had a turn-based mod. Might be fun to check it out.

The best part is you can activate and deactivate it with one click of a button so you can mow through the trash encounters in RTwP but when a challenging encounter comes up you go turn based.

That sounds super awesome!

So does it just auto pause every round for each individual? Is that all it does?

 

[Neroon]

So does it just auto pause every round for each individual? Is that all it does?

No no. Way better. Each one gets to move and act while everyone else sits still expect for attacks of opportunity. Plays 99% like the old SSI AD&D games. Only issues is that unlike TB combat in dedicated TB RPGs or PoE2s TB combat, you can't speed up the animations. Not that I blame the modmaker for that.

Edit: Seems I messed up the quote tags before.

 

[Outmind]

So you're saying it's kinda like Temple of Elemental Evil.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

So does it just auto pause every round for each individual? Is that all it does?

No no. Way better. Each one gets to move and act while everyone else sits still expect for attacks of opportunity. Plays 99% like the old SSI AD&D games. Only issues is that unlike TB combat in dedicated TB RPGs or PoE2s TB combat, you can't speed up the animations. Not that I blame the modmaker for that.

Oooh, I'm gonna go watch a video on it right now. This sounds really interesting. Normally I'm not even into turn based games ;P (Except Xcom and Shadowrun games)

 

[gurugeorge]

DOS is quite good; a bit lightweight but an enjoyable experience overall. For some reason the novelty gameplay that worked so well in DOS becomes overly filddly in DOS2, making it a less enjoyable experience (for me at least, YMMV and some love it).

POE is pretty good in all departments, story, gameplay and build system; but visually the combat is an unreadable, annoying graphics soup. POE2 is more refined mechanics-wise, more readable graphically and more pleasant to play, but it's pozzed af.

PFK is also quite pozzed, but the writing is fairly decent most of the time (it's not like the writers are treating everything as a teachable moment, the main focus is on story and character development, and the story and choices/consequences are nicely integrated - IOW, the level of wokeness is about mid-Noughties). Meanwhile PFK's gameplay (with hsinyucuan's genius turn-based mod), especially with being able to switch from RTwP for trash encounters to turn-based for meaty encounters, is pure heaven, and the build system is fun for all the family. One has a deep sense of immersion in the combat gameplay, where every ability and every item has a kind of intensity and preciousness to it.

Art design and graphics-wise, PFK is especially nice, it's like a Keith Parkinson painting come to life (again, a mod brings this home - extra zoom and camera controls).

I've enjoyed all these games (except DOS2), and I think they've all been quite popular (except for POE2 which for some inexplicable reason seems to have tanked commercially) and had their enthusiasts. But PFK is my favourite by quite a margin.

 

[Haplo]

So does it just auto pause every round for each individual? Is that all it does?

No no. Way better. Each one gets to move and act while everyone else sits still expect for attacks of opportunity. Plays 99% like the old SSI AD&D games. Only issues is that unlike TB combat in dedicated TB RPGs or PoE2s TB combat, you can't speed up the animations. Not that I blame the modmaker for that.

What do you mean you can't speed animations in Kingmaker? I've never played Turn Based in regular speed. Turn Based is actually very fast at +200%.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Kingmakers Turn Based mod is pure incline. I generally do not use mods but this one completely changed the gameplay for me

fights dont take forever?

No, tried the TB mode for both Pillars and PKM, PKM went much faster

 

[Haplo]

PoE2 is the current winner for me. I had more fun with it's TB combat than in DOS2 by a lot. Note that I deliberately wrote "more fun" not "is better". I don't really care that it makes dex a dump stat. It's a single player RPG not a MMORPG, I don't care about lack of balance. My wizard main character still wore a robe instead of heavy armour. Because he is a Wizard and that's what he is supposed to equip. No one is forcing you to do immersion breaking minmaxing. One move, one action, per encounter spells, simply but a lot like fantasy XCOM.
The main plot was lacking, but the stuff in between was way more interesting than in DOS2 IMHO. The conference calls with the gods, the chats with the faction leaders, sidequests with plot. Also very pleasantly surprised it wasn't a setting about Noble Savage natives and evil protoNazi Colonialists.

Dex being a dump stat is not good. For me, it means that you actually can't role play very well in this game. Actually the whole stat system is nonsensical to begin with. Like why does might determine spell strength? It's weird that my wizard is more beefy than my frontline tank. And before anyone jumps in and explains that Might is just "inner strength", I would have you know that Might is often used in scripted encounters for physical challenges. Like having my wizard push down a wall (because my tank is too weak to do it). So no, Might actually means physical strength (and magic strength apparently)...Anyways, I don't want to keep ranting about it lol...Just chalk it up to personal preference, that's all.

Dex is only sort of dump stat in Turn Based mode (still affects Reflex save and spell cast time... and Initiative, should you care). In real time its very important.
The stat system is cool, each stat has its significance, nothing wrong with it IMO. The (real time) dex / armor / weapon speed dynamics are novel and very interesting. The system is the most refined system for real time gameplay so far, IMO. Only it needlessly includes far too high duration precision of effects... truncate those milliseconds and make spells tick/last universal intervals (like every 3 seconds or so).

I miss Baldur's Gate companions...

Well, IMO Kingmaker companions are much better. But that's not a particularly high bar. If you compared with Planescape Torment... that one still has an unrivaled roster.

 

[Morality Games]

I dug around for their sales records, but those are all pretty old. So who is coming out on top in 2020?

Also, thoughts and comments on the 3 games? How are the stories? What about gameplay?

PS: General chit chat thread. Please be nice

Pillars of Eternity 2 sold somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 copies, quite a few on sale. It significantly improved the graphics, performance, and writing over the original, and had more interesting gameplay overall. Itemization is noted even by some detractors, and that is apparently something Josh paid attention to. It is considered a financial disappointment, but probably turned a small profit in the long run. It received critical acclaim and has some fans, but niche RPG enthusiasts like Codexers didn't like it a whole lot for the most part. The systems were over designed and the content was obscure, but it might have a shot of becoming some sort of cult classic because of pirate motifs and because of sheer 'realism' in the old Elder Scrolls sense of the word, where the cosmos and world seem to have a real, detailed, in-world anthropology and politics that a setting like the Forgotten Realms couldn't give two shits and a Popsicle about. While you can argue this Josh-y realism in tone and setting came at the expense of adventure and fun, it does possess a certain appeal once you've acclimated to it.

Divinity: Original Sin has sold somewhere between 2,000,000 and 5,000,000 copies, and I'd incline toward the latter. It's a massive financial success (in the humble terms of the genre) thanks largely to the multiplayer feature that allows people to treat it as a couples RPG or a romp shared among friends, proving that Sven is some kind of genius who finally realized the type of thing Tim Cain talked about but was never able to achieve. It is also a critical and audience darling. Niche RPG enthusiasts like Codexers are ambivalent about it, but tend to be negative. Like Pillars of Eternity 2, it is a bit over designed, with systems that can be counter-intuitive (inconsistent rules, etc) for the sake of balance. It's greatest strength in its sheer interactivity, with seemingly limitless ways to interact with the environments and NPCs, including just slaughtering them all, and lots of things to explore. It is a sign of a certain kind of quality you can kill pretty much everyone in the game and still be able to beat it. Act III sucks though.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker sold pretty similarly to Pillars II, but probably less on sale. Even so, it was a modest financial success because it was made in Russia and not California. It's critically well regarded and audiences had fun with it, although not nearly on the same scale as Divinity 2. Niche RPG enthusiasts like the Codex tend to like it, but it has many detractors. Undoubtedly, it is the closest in design, tone, and style to the old Baldur's Gate games, with systems ripped from the tabletop rather than built from the ground up to take advantage of the PC.

 

[Cryomancer]

My opinion about PoE vs DOS2 VS Pfkm

PF:KM is the most old school of the 3. Game jounralists freaked out because "i can't kill a insect swarm with a sword, swords should solve everything from a insect swarm, a knight on plate armor to a rock golem" but sold well and was good rated among the target audience. Time matters in the game. The combat is unforgiving and decisions can take long therm impact. There are so many classes and sub classes with dozen of possible bloodlines only for one class(sorcerer). PFKM is also the hardest one. The normal difficulty was made to be challenging for pathfinder veterans. I saw Jason Bulmahn(pathfinder design) having trouble in some parts of his stream ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQZl536LJrUocOHL9OhtplQ/videos )

Divinity Original Sin 2 is the most modern of the games. Has cooldowns, is up to the modern standards and has full voice acting, focus a lot on environmental gimmicks , and the itemization is very wow like, where most of your power comes from the gear and you need to constant update your gear(not like old school games. On G2, i can get Beliar's claw on chapter 2 and end the game using only it)

PoE is the in between. IS far more old school like than dos2 and far more modernized than pfkm. Attributes for example, aren't measurements about your character capabilities like on old school games but aren't like dos2 either. They impact very little in a homogenized way. Might for eg buffs damage from bows, magic, unarmed attacks(...)

 

[Haplo]

Pathfinder is the best RtwP game, better than almost any Infinity game bar PS:T though it beats that one in terms of combat and class build variety easily. PS:T has the better writing and plot though. Companions is a wash.

Yeah, as far as I can remember, Pathfinder is the only one that lets you level up your companion in whichever class you like. Companions from other RPG's can normally only be single class, which I never really understand the idea behind that restriction...For lore purposes, I guess? But then, I thought we were the ones "creating the lore" by playing the game lol...

Yeah, Pathfinder has total freedom in building all your characters.
But Deadfire offers decent choice also. You can multiclass your companions also - just in 1 of the 3 classes/combinations preset for each them. It does make a rather large difference.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

Pillars of Eternity 2 sold somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 copies, quite a few on sale. It significantly improved the graphics, performance, and writing over the original, and had more interesting gameplay overall. Itemization is noted even by some detractors, and that is apparently something Josh paid attention to. It is considered a financial disappointment, but probably turned a small profit in the long run. It received critical acclaim and has some fans, but niche RPG enthusiasts like Codexers didn't like it a whole lot for the most part. The systems were over designed and the content was obscure, but it might have a shot of becoming some sort of cult classic because of pirate motifs and because of sheer 'realism' in the old Elder Scrolls sense of the word, where the cosmos and world seem to have a real, detailed, in-world anthropology and politics that a setting like the Forgotten Realms couldn't give two shits and a Popsicle about. While you can argue this Josh-y realism in tone and setting came at the expense of adventure and fun, it does possess a certain appeal once you've acclimated to it.

Divinity: Original Sin has sold somewhere between 2,000,000 and 5,000,000 copies, and I'd incline toward the latter. It's a massive financial success (in the humble terms of the genre) thanks largely to the multiplayer feature that allows people to treat it as a couples RPG or a romp shared among friends, proving that Sven is some kind of genius who finally realized the type of thing Tim Cain talked about but was never able to achieve. It is also a critical and audience darling. Niche RPG enthusiasts like Codexers are ambivalent about it, but tend to be negative. Like Pillars of Eternity 2, it is a bit over designed, with systems that can be counter-intuitive (inconsistent rules, etc) for the sake of balance. It's greatest strength in its sheer interactivity, with seemingly limitless ways to interact with the environments and NPCs, including just slaughtering them all, and lots of things to explore. It is a sign of a certain kind of quality you can kill pretty much everyone in the game and still be able to beat it. Act III sucks though.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker sold pretty similarly to Pillars II, but probably less on sale. Even so, it was a modest financial success because it was made in Russia and not California. It's critically well regarded and audiences had fun with it, although not nearly on the same scale as Divinity 2. Niche RPG enthusiasts like the Codex tend to like it, but it has many detractors. Undoubtedly, it is the closest in design, tone, and style to the old Baldur's Gate games, with systems ripped from the tabletop rather than built from the ground up to take advantage of the PC.

Ah that's extremely informative!! Thank you very much! I wish Owlcat Games is the one making Baldur's Gate 3. So far I'm not impressed with what Larian Studios has done with Baldur's Gate 3. It looks more like DoS 3, to be honest ;P

 

[Haplo]

Attributes for example, aren't measurements about your character capabilities like on old school games but aren't like dos2 either. They impact very little in a homogenized way.

Eh, again these fake news. Why do you think stats have little impact in Deadfire?

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Haplo]

you had me at

No

but then lost at

tried the TB mode for both Pillars and PKM, PKM went much faster

But its true. In PKM you can greatly accelerate animation speed and the enemies are far less bullet-spongy (then some of them in Deadfire). Plus martials have multiple attacks per round and melees can proc attack chains via Outflank/Seize the Moment/Greater Trip. A well placed nuke can finish some encounters almost on its own.

PKM TB IS much faster.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Cryomancer]

Eh, again these fake news. Why do you think stats have little impact in Deadfire?

Wizard 1 - Why your fireball is stronger than mine?
Wizard 2 - I work out every day. Din't you know? It is magic 101. More muscle mass means deadlier spells, deadlier projectile with firearms and more healing if you are a cleric.

That is the Pillars Logic. Might increases damage from everything, INT the AOE from everything(...)

 

[Haplo]

Eh, again these fake news. Why do you think stats have little impact in Deadfire?

Wizard 1 - Why your fireball is stronger than mine?
Wizard 2 - I work out every day. Din't you know? It is magic 101. More muscle mass means deadlier spells, deadlier projectile with firearms and more healing if you are a cleric.

That is the Pillars Logic. Might increases damage from everything, INT the AOE from everything(...)

Yeah, I rather like it. Now all stats have a meaning. Int also increases effect durations, btw. And the aoe radius increase from high Int is party friendly.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yeah, I rather like it. Now all stats have a meaning. Int also increases effect durations, btw. And the aoe radius increase from high Int is party friendly.

And despite the game establishing that wizards are intellectuals, be a low int wizard is possible. That is my problem with most modern games. Too much focus on balance and too little focus on making the game mechanics a good reflection of game lore... And PoE1 is not the unique game with it. On Dragon Age Origins, you can use blood magic in front of templars without any consequence.

This is why i said that PFKM stats are the most old school and DOS2 the most "modernized", while PoE 1 is in between. Not stat stickie post wow mmo style(dos2) nor TTRPG like(pfkm)

 

[Haplo]

I wasn't debating "style". I was arguing with the "low impact" claim.

 

[Haplo]

you had me at

No

but then lost at

tried the TB mode for both Pillars and PKM, PKM went much faster

But its true. In PKM you can greatly accelerate animation speed and the enemies are far less bullet-spongy (then some of them in Deadfire). Plus martials have multiple attacks per round and melees can proc attack chains via Outflank/Seize the Moment/Greater Trip. A well placed nuke can finish some encounters almost on its own.

PKM TB IS much faster.

comparrison to game I havent played with non standard mode does little to me.
Also if something is very slow, saying that another thing is way faster doesnt imply that its reasonably quick.

Okay, I'll write extra slowly and loudly, specially for you:

P K M
T u r n
B a s e d
i s
v e r y
s m o o t h
a n d
f a s t
i f
y o u
o n l y
w a n t
i t
t o.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

Eh, again these fake news. Why do you think stats have little impact in Deadfire?

Wizard 1 - Why your fireball is stronger than mine?
Wizard 2 - I work out every day. Din't you know? It is magic 101. More muscle mass means deadlier spells, deadlier projectile with firearms and more healing if you are a cleric.

That is the Pillars Logic. Might increases damage from everything, INT the AOE from everything(...)

Hahaha that's what I thought about Pillars' system too. Makes no sense from a role player's perspective.

Okay, I'll write extra slowly and loudly, specially for you:

P K M
T u r n
B a s e d
i s
v e r y
s m o o t h
a n d
f a s t
i f
y o u
o n l y
w a n t
i t
t o.

[True Neutral] No need to be so mean, dude. Different people see things differently. I like the sound of Pathfinder turn based too, but you don't have to imply that someone is slow just because they have a different opinion.

 

[Haplo]

You seem to be new here...

 

[JohnSmith24601]

You seem to be new here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntvXUW5zHFA

 

[Ol' Willy]

The best part is you can activate and deactivate it with one click of a button so you can mow through the trash encounters in RTwP but when a challenging encounter comes up you go turn based.

And Arcanum had this feature 19 years ago. Eh, progress I guess