Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Elex]

Is doing evil things to evil persons, good?

no but is the right thing.

 

[Reinhardt]

Polish really takes a steep nosedive post-Varnholm (and shortly prior), and I'm constantly encountering references to things I haven't seen or experienced. I'm not going to spoil anything, but goddamn, some of these oversights are so damn glaring. Extremely frustrating, considering the quality prior.

I'm surprised you think that. I'm in Chapter 5 and the quality is excellent, it might be my favorite chapter of the game thus far. The Varnhold chapter was good but things are getting pretty interesting in Chapter 5. No need to spoil anything, but the game to me, keeps getting better and more impressive the further I go. For the record I've played the first 3 chapters and some of Varnhold before patch 1.1 even came out, if that counts for anything. Since 1.1 and the Wildcards DLC I've been having a blast again, looking to finish this game up, at least until April when I do another run through the game (perhaps as an evil character, with all the DLC released then.)

I've run into several glaring narrative issues.

Spoiler

Immediately after the Vanishing of Varnhold, two events started, and I had to pick between the two of them. One of these was "Betrayer's Flight", and was presented as a resurgence of The Bloom, centered on Lake Candlemere. Immediately following this, a pop-up of Linzi talks about following a traitor, Tristian, even though nothing has been said even hinting at his involvment. Further, it was made abundantly clear in the during the scene in Vordakai's Tomb that Tristian was somehow being coerced, but everything talks about him being a traitor. Quest updates continue in the same vein, talking about pursuing Tristian, even though nothing within the narrative of the game itself even hints to this.

I chose to go to help against the Barbarians first, and disregarding potential issues of how this plays out (Why would Armag not kill Amiri then and there, why was Amiri's friend even being sacrificed and why can't I even ask about that?), I find myself marching up against their camp with my entire group, knee-deep in the blood of Hill Giants and barbarians. When I reach the camp and start killing the guards at the entrance, the few remaining Brevan soldiers run in, leaving me to kill everyone at the gate. As I step into the camp, everything there is suddenly peaceful, and barbarians are standing around in the exact same way they did during the Amiri section, which is surreal considering the situation. After meeting up with Amiri, her friend and the barbarian dude, Jamandi Aldori shows up, and says that I've achieved the best of victories, a bloodless one.

I'm sorry, did I not wade through a battlefield to get here? Was this some kind of last-minute change to extend the game, them thinking that it would be too cheap/quick to resolve this whole thing peacefully. I then have a choice to speak out as if allying with the Surtova or Aldori - there is a third choice, of bowing before both and telling them that as a third faction, you can act as a guarantee for peace. This is locked behind being Neutral. Any kind of neutral. Chaotic included. Lawful Good need not apply.

Then I went to Candlemere, to resolve The Bloom/Pursue Tristian (which still hasn't been hinted at in any way whatsoever, just outright stated as a fact for.. some reason?). After battling my way through a bunch of meaningless mobs and getting to the top of the tower, I find the portal, the guy that was there earlier is dead, and then a bunch of mobs spawn that I get to kill, and then I'm now pursuing Tristian (which, again, I have no idea how he's even supposed to be involved, because literally nothing has been suggested from the start to have anything to do with him). I hop into the Portal and boom, I find myself in a dungeon.

In this dungeon, there are several hints that something evil was kept there, but nothing really comes of it, although the hints that Armag was raised there is pretty cool. There are several hints that there is something in here turning things to stone. But.. there's nothing there that petrifies. At all. There's petrified mice. Just no petrifier. And then I found a secret room with an alcove full of books, and upon finding it, it talks about the medusa we met in the library.

..I'm sorry, what medusa we met in what library?

And it just sorta continues in the same vein, like the oddity of the Lost Brother.

Really, the writing and narrative consistency just completely shits itself and starts falling apart at the seams the second you leave the Levies. I think they tried to tie multiple plot-lines together and repurpose (or multi-purpose) existing areas and finished content in order to ship the game without literal holes in it. Up until now, I've mostly encountered bugs - annoying, frustrating bugs, but understandable bugs in a game that had no playtesting - not unfinished or haphazardly thrown together content. I think post-Vordakai marks the point where they stopped developing the game and just tried to finish it as soon as possible, giving rise to all these issues.

Which is a damn shame, because while they'll fix bugs later, I've never seen a developer go back and actually fix shit like this, because it would mean changing an established narrative. It just reinforces my belief that the game could've really used another full year in active development.

I don't think any patches are going to fix this.

lets speed up the this topic and ask
Was hitler really evil that he wanted to better his people by hurting jews?
cos it will definitely end up there

He didn't want to hurt Jews, he just wanted to his people to live free of them, and encouraged Jews to create their own national state, too, so that they also could live free.

This made a lot of people very angry.

Nigga, it's Tristian. Of course he's traitor. His portrait is not enough to convince you?

 

[Reinhardt]

Is doing evil things to evil persons, good?

no but is the right thing.

I could understand if he was trying to give troll regen to humans. Well, to one human, named Bart, to be precise. But what if elves will benefit from it too? If it's not evil for the sake of evil then i don't know what is.

 

[Cael]

Is doing evil things to evil persons, good?

no but is the right thing.

I could understand if he was trying to give troll regen to humans. Well, to one human, named Bart, to be precise. But what if elves will benefit from it too? If it's not evil for the sake of evil then i don't know what is.

Yes, but think of the regenerating dwarf barbarian!

 

[Reinhardt]

Is doing evil things to evil persons, good?

no but is the right thing.

I could understand if he was trying to give troll regen to humans. Well, to one human, named Bart, to be precise. But what if elves will benefit from it too? If it's not evil for the sake of evil then i don't know what is.

Yes, but think of the regenerating dwarf barbarian!

I remember Kagain in BG1 already had regen without this mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Elex]

Is doing evil things to evil persons, good?

no but is the right thing.

I could understand if he was trying to give troll regen to humans. Well, to one human, named Bart, to be precise. But what if elves will benefit from it too? If it's not evil for the sake of evil then i don't know what is.

a dialogue for convince him to share the knowledge with the baron can be interesting.
“i need power for save the barony/kingdom”

 

[Reinhardt]

Is doing evil things to evil persons, good?

no but is the right thing.

I could understand if he was trying to give troll regen to humans. Well, to one human, named Bart, to be precise. But what if elves will benefit from it too? If it's not evil for the sake of evil then i don't know what is.

a dialogue for convince him to share the knowledge with the baron can be interesting.
“i need power for save the barony/kingdom”

And his answer "Fuck off, elf" See, we can even implement race check.

 

[Luckmann]

Well I'll say, if this isn't the shoddiest fucking masonry...

All this stonework was put in barely two weeks ago, and you're telling me that the stairway to the library is already falling apart?

I want the masons' heads in the stockades!

 

[ArchAngel]

lets speed up the this topic and ask
Was hitler really evil that he wanted to better his people by hurting jews?
cos it will definitely end up there

Noone like Jews anyway.

Considering nobody outside Codex likes us we got more in common with the Jews than we are ready to accept.

 

[ArchAngel]

Well I'll say, if this isn't the shoddiest fucking masonry...

All this stonework was put in barely two weeks ago, and you're telling me that the stairway to the library is already falling apart?

I want the masons' heads in the stockades!

That will not do much, you better want the artist that did it head in the stockades! Only way to prevent him/her from doing this again to some future DLC or game.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

lets speed up the this topic and ask
Was hitler really evil that he wanted to better his people by hurting jews?
cos it will definitely end up there

Noone like Jews anyway.

Jews Rock!

 

[Luckmann]

Further indications that the game is just falling apart: The map location "Little Sellen Source", indicating that this is the source of the Little Sellen River, leads to a single small dungeon area consisting of 3 completely empty (save for a few traps) small rooms and an "Insane Wizard". It makes no sense whatsoever, other than as quickly assembled filler, and I guess it's easier to make a room "dungeon" than a cave with a river source.

Been hitting more and more places like that.

 

[ga♥]

To be fair there's a complete disconnection from the area description and "reality", and this happens even on the west side which is accesible even at the start.

So I guess it's a design decision instead of "lacking funds/time"

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I just don't see the game as falling apart when Chapter 5 is as good as it is. Maybe in 6 & 7 it does, but I feel you're nitpicking a bit Luckmann. Most locations are sound. I did notice some weirdness with the Tristian thing but it made sense he was a traitor - he screamed about his salvation by stealing the eye and then booked it out of there, leaving us to die. The bloodless battle was in terms of uniting the barbarians and bypassing the barbarians fighting the Restovians. It wasn't entirely bloodless because you arrived late, but for your part that you did it was bloodless. Just my 2. I think Chapter 5 is excellent and probably my favorite one so far, really enjoying it. But I honestly don't feel anything is falling apart in the game, truly.

 

[yes plz]

The game absolutely falls apart after the Vordakai chapter. For starters there's no longer any build up for most of the plot developments. With the Bloom stuff, for example, it begins with you spending some leisure time on a royal hunt and then right as they're announcing the winners monsters begin to burst out of people. You then spend several quests investigating what's going on, eventually leading to an assault on your capital and a trip into the Bloom to solve everything.

With the barbarians in chapter four it's literally just "Barbarians are attacking. You gotta go fight them." Then you go to the single map that the battle happens on, fight them, and that's largely it for the barbarian threat. The Armag stuff doesn't add much to it either. Finding the tomb is barely a quest - you can do so with either the right stats (iirc, anyway), stumble upon a random encounter, and/or do a kingdom event to find it. Then you go into the tomb and deal with him.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

The Pitax/Chapter 5 has a build up. You mosey around, do the Rushlight Tournament, start noticing weird things like your throne missing and something odd going on, to having Pitax start assaulting you with bards and propaganda, etc.. I think you guys are looking through a lens of wanting to see a decline, maybe. I've played it through so far and see no decline at all in Ch. 5 content, actually it's some of my favorite thus far. You have to keep in mind that they crammed a million pieces of content into this game and not every single small detail is going to be epicly created. Some of the areas like the barbarian war, etc., have to keep within the scope of their resources. They had less than a milli to do this all, so let's keep that in mind.

 

[ga♥]

The game absolutely falls apart after the Vordakai chapter. For starters there's no longer any build up for most of the plot developments. With the Bloom stuff, for example, it begins with you spending some leisure time on a royal hunt and then right as they're announcing the winners monsters begin to burst out of people. You then spend several quests investigating what's going on, eventually leading to an assault on your capital and a trip into the Bloom to solve everything.

With the barbarians in chapter four it's literally just "Barbarians are attacking. You gotta go fight them." Then you go to the single map that the battle happens on, fight them, and that's largely it for the barbarian threat. The Armag stuff doesn't add much to it either. Finding the tomb is barely a quest - you can do so with either the right stats (iirc, anyway), stumble upon a random encounter, and/or do a kingdom event to find it. Then you go into the tomb and deal with him.

You should blame the AP though, not the game.

 

[yes plz]

The Pitax stuff looks like it's going to have build up due to the tournament but immediately after that it's "oh, Pitax suddenly started attacking us." There's no build up of conflict between the two kingdoms. Just look at Pitax itself -- most of the important leaders of the city just stand around in the street kindly waiting for you to talk to them and convince them to go against their king.

I know they were likely rushed (iirc there was something said about getting it out before the end of that fiscal quarter) but that doesn't change the fact that there is an obvious drop in quality after a certain point.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

If you say so. I'm enjoying the game just as much as when I started. Maybe I keep in mind that they only had a million or less to work with, so expectations have to remain at a certain level. I certainly enjoyed the dream sequences and the craziness that broke out when Pitax attacked.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Question about Irovetti's palace.

Spoiler

I've killed the several Golden Golems after a magical alarm and ringing bells went off, walking up the steps of the palace to an area where there are 2 candlesticks. I interacted with the first one, and then the second one got spotted and there's clearly a hidden door it opens, but I can't interact with the candlestick. It's lit up, spotted as a perception check and I can't use it. Is this a bug or do you come back later or something?

 

[Elex]

The Pitax stuff looks like it's going to have build up due to the tournament but immediately after that it's "oh, Pitax suddenly started attacking us." There's no build up of conflict between the two kingdoms. Just look at Pitax itself -- most of the important leaders of the city just stand around in the street kindly waiting for you to talk to them and convince them to go against their king.

I know they were likely rushed (iirc there was something said about getting it out before the end of that fiscal quarter) but that doesn't change the fact that there is an obvious drop in quality after a certain point.

pitax conflict start to build up from the fist minute of the game.

also the entire main quest is the dryad play with the puppets and force them destroy eachothers.

 

[yes plz]

The Pitax stuff looks like it's going to have build up due to the tournament but immediately after that it's "oh, Pitax suddenly started attacking us." There's no build up of conflict between the two kingdoms. Just look at Pitax itself -- most of the important leaders of the city just stand around in the street kindly waiting for you to talk to them and convince them to go against their king.

I know they were likely rushed (iirc there was something said about getting it out before the end of that fiscal quarter) but that doesn't change the fact that there is an obvious drop in quality after a certain point.

pitax conflict start to build up from the fist minute of the game.

also the entire main quest is the dryad play with the puppets and force them destroy eachothers.

The early chapters certainly set up Irovetti and the threat of Pitax, but there's no real transition between him doing shit behind the scenes and suddenly teleporting monsters into your kingdom. I think all the hints about Irovetti in the first few chapters just make chapter five all the more disappointing, even more so since it starts out promising with the tournament. You meet him all of two times - at the tournament and then to go kill him.

And sure, the dryad fucking with them to ruin their kingdoms gives him motivation but that doesn't mean it's handled well at all in the narrative or excuse the shitty way the story flows and develops at that point.

 

[Luckmann]

Maybe I keep in mind that they only had a million or less to work with

This can certainly be used as an excuse, and can explain the whys or hows, and inform the circumstances, etc. But it doesn't change the facts, nor should it in any way be held as some kind of valid argument as to why something shouldn't be criticized. I'm poor and I can't program for shit, it doesn't mean that some shit I cream out would be acceptable due to my circumstances.

And the fact of the matter is that the quality of the game rapidly drops around the 4th chapter, for all the reasons mentioned.

The Pitax stuff looks like it's going to have build up due to the tournament but immediately after that it's "oh, Pitax suddenly started attacking us." There's no build up of conflict between the two kingdoms. Just look at Pitax itself -- most of the important leaders of the city just stand around in the street kindly waiting for you to talk to them and convince them to go against their king.

I suspect that, just like certain other areas and quests seem to have been repurposed and changed to accommodate getting the game out ASAP, the Pitax section was intended to be much longer and much bigger, possibly with a shift from exploration-based gameplay to political intrigue or warfare.

This would explain why all the important shakers are just sorta standing around like that - the dialogues were written and the primary narrative "thread" can be preserved, even if it makes no sense, but the act of you going to these different people, long-term interactions, etc., all of that was likely never made.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I personally don't see any decline in chapter 5 at least, but I'm not going to argue something silly with you guys. I see no difference in chapter 5 from chapter 3 really, how the Bloom just literally burst out and then you're dealing with some goblins and heading into the womb. To each their own and all that. Now I'll report back when I'm in chapter 6, but 5 I find really good, especially the large dungeon at the end and the dealings in pitax. Quality stuff there.

 

[Luckmann]

I personally don't see any decline in chapter 5 at least, but I'm not going to argue something silly with you guys. I see no difference in chapter 5 from chapter 3 really, how the Bloom just literally burst out and then you're dealing with some goblins and heading into the womb. To each their own and all that. Now I'll report back when I'm in chapter 6, but 5 I find really good, especially the large dungeon at the end and the dealings in pitax. Quality stuff there.

Except that with The Season of Bloom, all of that is actually telegraphed to the player, and it's even hinted at earlier, setting you up for the chapter. With the issues I've mentioned, there's a total and complete disconnect between what actually goes on on the screen and what you're told to do by the quests and it's updates, and characters/prompts are responding to things that literally never happened.

And like I said earlier, add to that how an increasing amount of filler or unfinished areas start to pop up, sometimes with little to no content, with little contextual fidelity. I've mentioned some of these, but there are many more, like the graveyard with not!elephants (I forget what the area is called and I don't have the game up anymore), which is described as if some eerie shit is in the air, owing from the death of the animals, and you go there and you get attacked by a bunch of ghost monks that drain levels, with little to no hint of any kind (written or otherwise) as to why. I can't remember anything like that prior.

Or like how I've currently got two updated areas on the map, but for some reason, the game flat-out tells me "Nope, you can't go there, that area is unavailable for.. uhm.. reasons xD". It's incredibly shoddy, and in stark contrast with previous content.