Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Sykar]

Sorcerer has a nice advantage with metamagic. That has always been one of its main advantages.

You get rods that negate that completely.

Not really. Those are not free and take a lot of micromanagement. Also I often forget to turn them off after using them on one spell and then waste their uses on unwanted spells :D
Sorcerer gets rods + superior metamagic. Also metamagic lets you cast spells you really like in multiple spell levels. I took Empower and Extend with my Sorcerer and often use it to cast spells I need at different spell levels.

In what way is Sorcerer who has to waste full rounds on metamagic spells always having an advantage over Wizard who does not suffer such a disadvantage?

It is a small penalty for ability to cast as many metamagic spells as needed. With Sorcerer you need to rest rarely and can push through dungeons and fight with little to no rest (like how I did Armag tomb with 0 resting).

For most of the game a specialist wizard has equal or more spells especially at higher spell levels. This does not really change until level 19. I also do not see why you would have to cast less often with a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. In that regard both are equal the Sorcerer has no special benefit which allows him to cast him "less often".
Lastly a wizard has access to metamagic and spell focus/penetration earlier and can acquire more.

 

[Shadenuat]

Those are not free and take a lot of micromanagement. Also I often forget to turn them off after using them on one spell and then waste their uses on unwanted spells :D

Well playing effectively always requires micromanagement. Irlene's final rod is better than any metamagic you can have so I would argue Metamagic role in this game is just to expand your spells per day by memorizing spells you want more of.

 

[Sykar]

What
The
Fuck

Thassalonian does not get school specialization special abilities according to the ingame description of that archetype.

Are you sure you have even played Wizard?

dunno lah

how does that look to u?

I also doubt you really played all Wizard specializations extensively on top of all other classes

Not all of themz.

I did not try Diviner ( ), Abjurer & Illusionist. Have full playthrough with Evoker, 50% with Enchanter, Octavia is Transmuter, and played endgame with Conjurer and Necromancer.

They are also fixed in what schools are opposite which are often devastatingly badly chosen

You have a party for that, and if you know what spells are good or bad, you can make it work.

Looks like Owlcat fucked up either by not clarifying that Thassalonian specialist gets those extras or by implementing it faultily which would be my suspicion considering the sneak attack debacle and since nothing I look up indicates that Thassilonian specialist should get access to them.
Still does not change a damn about my previous point.

 

[Serus]

Pretty sure sneak attack vulnerability is as in PnP,

Never said it's not how it's in PnP. I don't know the PnP rules because I don't play PnP (mainly because I don't have anyone interested in playing), I'm just saying that sneak attacking Will'o'Wisps, Undead and phantoms is kind of retarded. "You stab *random:dude* in the kidneys for X*x dice of damage...too bad *random:dude* has no functional kidneys."

and the requirement is that 2 melee dudes are 'focused' on the same enemy(not necessarily having attacked yet, but intending to do so)

What did I say? Just have one dude sitting over there. Maybe troll post needs elaboration. Just have one dude sitting there with an attack command on going? There, fixed?

You are accustomed to DnD ruleset. There is no "logical" (as much as this word makes sense when discussing made-up things) reason why undead cannot be subjected to sneak attacks. In fact in most popular culture cliches the undead (the ones who have physical bodies) do have vulnerable spots, heroes of movies, books or comics go for brains, or hearts or try to sever their spines, etc., depending on the kind of undead, all the time.
As to "phantoms", not sure what you specifically refer to but even in Pathfinder uncorporeal undead are supposed to be immune to sneak attacks. If it isn't in game, it's another mistake on Owlcat part. Or the "phantoms" you refer to actually do have physical presence in which case see the point about corporeal undead.
It leaves will-o-wisps being sneak-able, which is just a result of them being aberrations - creatures that are weird but still have most vital functions of living organisms and distinctive parts (usually). Except wills as they're described or shown really don't which makes the whole thing silly and nonsensical.

Whatever. The point is, undead being vulnerable or not to sneak or critical attacks is just a matter of making completely made-up things work differently than other made-up things. It's not even inconsistent let alone warranting the use of word "retarded".

 

[Shadenuat]

does not change a damn about my previous point.

Dude are you even sure you played a Wizard? I mean, Diviner, initiative and familiar, True Seeing super useful spell, I mean, really? It's like the more wrong people are, the harder they try to be even more wrong.

 

[Sykar]

does not change a damn about my previous point.

Dude are you even sure you played a Wizard? I mean, Diviner, initiative and familiar, True Seeing super useful spell, I mean, really? It's like the more wrong people are, the harder they try to be even more wrong.

Since 2nd Edition. Thanks for asking.

 

[Shadenuat]

And how does that help you? I also played AD&D, but I don't run around screaming about it or trying to apply that to completely different system in a computer game that is not even turn based (so initiative is even less useful).

 

[Sykar]

And how does that help you? I also played AD&D, but I don't run around screaming about it or trying to apply that to completely different system in a computer game that is not even turn based (so initiative is even less useful).

Who said anything about helping and who is screaming here? I have a different opinion. Seems like you are butthurt about that. Nice diversion from the original topic though. Feel free to divert some more.

 

[Shadenuat]

Fine, stick to your guns, play what you like, whatever.

 

[Shadenuat]

There is no "logical" (as much as this word makes sense when discussing made-up things) reason why undead cannot be subjected to sneak attacks. In fact in most popular culture cliches the undead (the ones who have physical bodies) do have vulnerable spots, heroes of movies, books or comics go for brains, or hearts or try to sever their spines, etc., depending on the kind of undead, all the time

First thing my players would probably ask would be "well, why can't fighters also aim at weak spots? they are fighters"

The rogue sneak feels tad arbitrary (err gamist) to me. And it shows just how powerful it ends up in the game. There is almost no reason not to have more damage.

 

[Roguey]

Pathfinder noob here, I'm playing with all the settings on normal as far as I can make out, 1x damage, normal strength enemies etc, "normal" here hopefully meaning as close to PnP as possible.

Weakened enemy stats are P&P normal.

 

[Sykar]

Fine, stick to your guns, play what you like, whatever.

Will do. Though I do have to thank you for proving to me that specialization features apply to Thassalonian archetype. Why Owlcat failed to document that is beyond me.

 

[Shadenuat]

Also I recently acquired the Ruin quarterstaff, damn that is one fine fucking weapon for neutral or chaotic characters. Also seems like a fine weapon for Eldritch Knight two handed

Too bad it doesn't work.

At least till Monday when they see my report, maybe

 

[ArchAngel]

Also I recently acquired the Ruin quarterstaff, damn that is one fine fucking weapon for neutral or chaotic characters. Also seems like a fine weapon for Eldritch Knight two handed

Too bad it doesn't work.

At least till Monday when they see my report, maybe

Which part does not work? Bonus to concentration/spell pen or the bonus force damage?

I read somewhere that in this game you can have a Magus with a two-handed weapon. Maybe this would be nice for one that does not go for critical weapon :D

 

[ArchAngel]

Those are not free and take a lot of micromanagement. Also I often forget to turn them off after using them on one spell and then waste their uses on unwanted spells :D

Well playing effectively always requires micromanagement. Irlene's final rod is better than any metamagic you can have so I would argue Metamagic role in this game is just to expand your spells per day by memorizing spells you want more of.

Final rod is for only last part of the game and not everyone will have it. I don't like to base builds on last 10% of my playtime.

 

[Roguey]

????

Look at a monster's stats in Kingmaker and then look at the Pathfinder srd. Normal stats are inflated.

 

[Shadenuat]

Which part does not work? Bonus to concentration/spell pen or the bonus force damage

Bonus to Pen for Chaotic characters I believe. With staff, Robe of Master and 2x Spell Penetration feats I had level + 4 + 2 on Octavia.
So either it doesn't stack with feats or other items or doesn't apply.

 

[Sykar]

So feature, failure to document or both?

 

[ArchAngel]

Sorcerer has a nice advantage with metamagic. That has always been one of its main advantages.

You get rods that negate that completely.

Not really. Those are not free and take a lot of micromanagement. Also I often forget to turn them off after using them on one spell and then waste their uses on unwanted spells :D
Sorcerer gets rods + superior metamagic. Also metamagic lets you cast spells you really like in multiple spell levels. I took Empower and Extend with my Sorcerer and often use it to cast spells I need at different spell levels.

In what way is Sorcerer who has to waste full rounds on metamagic spells always having an advantage over Wizard who does not suffer such a disadvantage?

It is a small penalty for ability to cast as many metamagic spells as needed. With Sorcerer you need to rest rarely and can push through dungeons and fight with little to no rest (like how I did Armag tomb with 0 resting).

For most of the game a specialist wizard has equal or more spells especially at higher spell levels. This does not really change until level 19. I also do not see why you would have to cast less often with a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. In that regard both are equal the Sorcerer has no special benefit which allows him to cast him "less often".
Lastly a wizard has access to metamagic and spell focus/penetration earlier and can acquire more.

Wizard gets a bonus feat at lvl 1, 5, 10, 15, 20. Sorcerers get one at lvl 1, 7, 13, 19.
Sorcerers get enough feats to pick up metamagic as you need it (extend first, empower second, quicken or maximize possibly for very high levels).
Wizard do get new spells faster but sorcerers have more to cast and can cast them as they want and can metamagic as they want. I got both a wizard and sorcerer in two different groups and sorcerer is more free to play than the wizard. With wizard I often don't cast anything in battles as I don't want to waste spells that I can no longer cast after that.

With sorcerer my group is Hasted in all battles that look like they are not a pushover. I Heroism most of the team and cast buffs and stuff with metamatic or not as I please.

 

[Shadenuat]

With wizard I often don't cast anything in battles as I don't want to waste spells that I can no longer cast after that

Just memorize 6 hastes on Wizard? Since you do it all the time.

The question is only in what you know you want to cast, it is quite simple.

 

[Shadenuat]

makes a lot of good builds quite weak.

Like which ones

 

[ArchAngel]

With wizard I often don't cast anything in battles as I don't want to waste spells that I can no longer cast after that

Just memorize 6 hastes on Wizard? Since you do it all the time.

The question is only in what you know you want to cast, it is quite simple.

That would need a Transmutation specialist. And I would not be able to combine it with Extend, Stinking Cloud, Heroism or extended Sense Vitals. Hard to know how many you need. Sorcerer solves that with 8 casts of lvl 3 spells and many others.

 

[Roguey]

Wait. You mean stats on Normal difficulty are inflated or PnP/SRD are inflated? If the former, then yeah and that has been known for some time. It irks me because it makes a lot of good builds quite weak.

Well Sacred82 didn't know https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...z1/enemy_difficulty_vs_enemy_stat_adjustment/

 

[Thonius]

Any list that does not have Rogue in the position of #1 or #2 is a terrible list. Unless this is a list for solo play where rogue cannot really sneak attack.

Knife Master Rogue is pretty fuckin' beastly in this game due to how flanking/sneak attacks work. Don't even need to buff them up, stand them next to your meat shield and watch things die.

ANYONE can sneak attack if you dip them in one level of Alchemist or in Rogue. You not need full progression or even half progression in Rogue to do that, only few levels. Anyway it was just my opinion, I didn't claimed it absolute.

Disagree on prestige classes. See example of my DD

Looks impressive, but in my taste it's to complicated for game where 20 levels and you would shine only in last half. But it's only my opinion ofc.

Fey, magical beasts and beasts or ?

I was talking about types in game: it's magical beasts, undead, fey. As much, as I remember you can take 2xmagical beasts, 2xfey, undead during whole game. Maybe I was wrong for taking Undead before Dunsward, but it saved my ass once or twice.

Well It's not like this build works only lategame. With glaive(and later scimitar of thunder god) and self buffs I did good damage trough whole game. So this build works alright.

 

[Sykar]

Sorcerer has a nice advantage with metamagic. That has always been one of its main advantages.

You get rods that negate that completely.

Not really. Those are not free and take a lot of micromanagement. Also I often forget to turn them off after using them on one spell and then waste their uses on unwanted spells :D
Sorcerer gets rods + superior metamagic. Also metamagic lets you cast spells you really like in multiple spell levels. I took Empower and Extend with my Sorcerer and often use it to cast spells I need at different spell levels.

In what way is Sorcerer who has to waste full rounds on metamagic spells always having an advantage over Wizard who does not suffer such a disadvantage?

It is a small penalty for ability to cast as many metamagic spells as needed. With Sorcerer you need to rest rarely and can push through dungeons and fight with little to no rest (like how I did Armag tomb with 0 resting).

For most of the game a specialist wizard has equal or more spells especially at higher spell levels. This does not really change until level 19. I also do not see why you would have to cast less often with a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. In that regard both are equal the Sorcerer has no special benefit which allows him to cast him "less often".
Lastly a wizard has access to metamagic and spell focus/penetration earlier and can acquire more.

Wizard gets a bonus feat at lvl 1, 5, 10, 15, 20. Sorcerers get one at lvl 1, 7, 13, 19.
Sorcerers get enough feats to pick up metamagic as you need it (extend first, empower second, quicken or maximize possibly for very high levels).
Wizard do get new spells faster but sorcerers have more to cast and can cast them as they want and can metamagic as they want. I got both a wizard and sorcerer in two different groups and sorcerer is more free to play than the wizard. With wizard I often don't cast anything in battles as I don't want to waste spells that I can no longer cast after that.

With sorcerer my group is Hasted in all battles that look like they are not a pushover. I Heroism most of the team and cast buffs and stuff with metamatic or not as I please.

1.) Sorcerer does not get bonus feats but bloodline feats which big difference there since there is little choice in terms of magic from them, dragon bloodline gets Quicken feat only for example, elemental bloodline gets Empower feat only, otherwise you get feats like skill focus, II or Toughness, fine feats but have little to offer in terms of magic. None of these feats offer Spell Focus or other Metamagic feats. Also you get them at slower rates, every 6 level after 1st instead of every 5th plus one at level 1 which means that after the first bonus feat you have to wait two/three/four levels longer to get them compared to wizard. So less feats and substantially slower acquisition and less choice in terms of magic.

2.) Level 3 specialist wizard casts more spells than a level 3 Sorcerer and this trend only really turns around at level 19 which few achieve during the campaign. Thassalonian casts as many spells as Sorcerer even after level 18 and is substantially ahead before that.

3.) What are you saving spells up for? They are there to be used. Do you also not use health potions for the same reason?