Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[ArchAngel]

Octavia becomes really strong when she gets AT lvl 10.

AT is broken at the moment. Take PC via the Eldritch archer, Rogue/Vivi -> AT path and do ridiculous damage.

It doesn't work with her Telekinetic Fist though, there apparently only her W levels count.

That is in fact the correct implementation.

Agile weapon is not really a necessity, unlike in the P&P, Slashing & Fencing Grace work for a magus here.

Yeah. The question is which is better.

Depends on the magus. If you're playing a sword saint you need fencing/slashing grace at level 1 or else you'll be gimped for nearly the whole first chapter.

If you're playing a normal magus or an eldritch scion, there is no good answer because you'll have moments where you feel like an idiot either way. I took fencing grace for estoc (not a great idea since there aren't that many of them) and I kick myself every time I find an agile weapon. On the other hand, if I hadn't taken fencing grace, I'd be kicking myself every time I found a cool non-agile rapier or estoc or scimitar. FOMO is inexorable.

This means the correct answer is Slashing grace. good. thanks.

Better to make a fire bloodline sorcerer and then sneak attack with Scorching Rays and later with Hellfire rays.

 

[Haplo]

Agile weapon is not really a necessity, unlike in the P&P, Slashing & Fencing Grace work for a magus here.

Yeah. The question is which is better.

There are really good scimitars, so Slashing Grace (Scimitar) is definitely strong for a Magus. However, there are enough good Agile weapons (mostly rapiers, but also that awesome endgame dueling sword) that this probably equally viable.

But Scimitars are supposed to not be finessable, right?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Agile weapon is not really a necessity, unlike in the P&P, Slashing & Fencing Grace work for a magus here.

Yeah. The question is which is better.

There are really good scimitars, so Slashing Grace (Scimitar) is definitely strong for a Magus. However, there are enough good Agile weapons (mostly rapiers, but also that awesome endgame dueling sword) that this probably equally viable.

But Scimitars are supposed to not be finessable, right?

in p&p, the dervish dance feat makes them finessable. they don't have dervish dance in this game, though, so it got folded into slashing grace. weapon finesse --> weapon focus scimitar --> slashing grace scimitar and you get DEX to both attack and damage.

 

[Yosharian]

Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, etc: this whole line of thinking is really a trap. You gain at the most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage over just going strength instead.

And you lose:

• feats that you could spend on other things
• the ability to pick and choose among whatever weapons you have, and adapt your weapon according to your enemy (e.g. use a construct bane weapon whenever you're fighting constructs
• carrying capacity

 

[Zero Credibility]

Well we are talking about a magus here, and saint in particular. With no armor he needs a lot of dex anyway, and gets a free focus as well. Dex, int, con - there's simply not enough points for high strength as well. Even vanilla magus could use some dex until he can put on some better armor.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, etc: this whole line of thinking is really a trap. You gain at the most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage over just going strength instead.

And you lose:

• feats that you could spend on other things
• the ability to pick and choose among whatever weapons you have, and adapt your weapon according to your enemy (e.g. use a construct bane weapon whenever you're fighting constructs
• carrying capacity

That's all good, but Dex Magus builds are perfectly viable and not a trap. It gives you much better AC until level 13 at least, plus Weapon Finesse is only one feat, and there are enough Agile weapons that you don't need Fencing or Slashing Grace. There are some really good scimitars for a Magus, too, so even Slashing Grace isn't a waste.

 

[vazha]

Well we are talking about a magus here, and saint in particular. With no armor he needs a lot of dex anyway, and gets a free focus as well. Dex, int, con - there's simply not enough points for high strength as well. Even vanilla magus could use some dex until he can put on some better armor.

True. Sword Saint is potentially the ultimate warrior that can both tank and devastate opponents in equal measure. Of course, if built correctly, with meaningful dips here and there

 

[Yosharian]

Well we are talking about a magus here, and saint in particular. With no armor he needs a lot of dex anyway, and gets a free focus as well. Dex, int, con - there's simply not enough points for high strength as well. Even vanilla magus could use some dex until he can put on some better armor.

He doesn't need dex at all.

I'll say it again, focusing on Dex to the exclusion of Strength nets you at most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage. Maybe 3 AC. Your build is not suddenly going to fail to work because of losing that, and there are significant benefits to not going the Dex route.

 

[Yosharian]

Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, etc: this whole line of thinking is really a trap. You gain at the most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage over just going strength instead.

And you lose:

• feats that you could spend on other things
• the ability to pick and choose among whatever weapons you have, and adapt your weapon according to your enemy (e.g. use a construct bane weapon whenever you're fighting constructs
• carrying capacity

That's all good, but Dex Magus builds are perfectly viable and not a trap. It gives you much better AC until level 13 at least, plus Weapon Finesse is only one feat, and there are enough Agile weapons that you don't need Fencing or Slashing Grace. There are some really good scimitars for a Magus, too, so even Slashing Grace isn't a waste.

To use Slashing Grace requires specialism in one weapon, not to mention that it's 3 feats. 3 feats just to be able to use your Dex attribute instead of Strength? 3 feats is a very high investment.

Go strength instead, be able to use any weapon you come across, and invest those feats into Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, gives you 7 AC.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, etc: this whole line of thinking is really a trap. You gain at the most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage over just going strength instead.

And you lose:

• feats that you could spend on other things
• the ability to pick and choose among whatever weapons you have, and adapt your weapon according to your enemy (e.g. use a construct bane weapon whenever you're fighting constructs
• carrying capacity

That's all good, but Dex Magus builds are perfectly viable and not a trap. It gives you much better AC until level 13 at least, plus Weapon Finesse is only one feat, and there are enough Agile weapons that you don't need Fencing or Slashing Grace. There are some really good scimitars for a Magus, too, so even Slashing Grace isn't a waste.

To use Slashing Grace requires specialism in one weapon, not to mention that it's 3 feats. 3 feats just to be able to use your Dex attribute instead of Strength? 3 feats is a very high investment.

Go strength instead, be able to use any weapon you come across, and invest those feats into Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, gives you 7 AC.

Crane Style/Wing/Riposte is 4 feats (or 3 and a Monk level).
Weapon Focus isn't a wasted feat either if you pick Scimitar, Dueling sword, or Rapier as a Magus, but like I said you can easily get by with just Weapon Finesse and Agile weapons. Dex also bolsters your Reflex save (your only bad saving throw, as a Magus).

 

[Yosharian]

Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, etc: this whole line of thinking is really a trap. You gain at the most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage over just going strength instead.

And you lose:

• feats that you could spend on other things
• the ability to pick and choose among whatever weapons you have, and adapt your weapon according to your enemy (e.g. use a construct bane weapon whenever you're fighting constructs
• carrying capacity

That's all good, but Dex Magus builds are perfectly viable and not a trap. It gives you much better AC until level 13 at least, plus Weapon Finesse is only one feat, and there are enough Agile weapons that you don't need Fencing or Slashing Grace. There are some really good scimitars for a Magus, too, so even Slashing Grace isn't a waste.

To use Slashing Grace requires specialism in one weapon, not to mention that it's 3 feats. 3 feats just to be able to use your Dex attribute instead of Strength? 3 feats is a very high investment.

Go strength instead, be able to use any weapon you come across, and invest those feats into Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, gives you 7 AC.

Crane Style/Wing/Riposte is 4 feats (or 3 and a Monk level).
Weapon Focus isn't a wasted feat either if you pick Scimitar, Dueling sword, or Rapier as a Magus, but like I said you can easily get by with just Weapon Finesse and Agile weapons. Dex also bolsters your Reflex save (your only bad saving throw, as a Magus).

If you're going the Crane Style route then a Monk level makes sense, in which case it's easy to justify picking up that Dodge feat.

Weapon Focus is a bad feat because specialising in weapons is counter-productive in a game where you don't know what the best weapons are. You could find a +4 weapon but be unable to use it. Yes there's a decent mid-game Scimitar available, but what about the late-game ones? Being able to use the best weapon for the job at any given moment is a big advantage.

Reflex save: a small increase in Reflex saves isn't going to dramatically shift your save percentage.

Here's an example of some weapons that can be found in the game:

1-HAND WEAPONS

Bastard Sword:
Unstoppable Khanda (+4, Beguiling, Impervious, Unyielding, Venomous) - Pitax

Club:
Grim Finale (+2, Necrotic)
Fearsomeful Mace of Chwurk (Masterwork)

Dagger:
Edict (+4, Mithril, Speed, Breaker of Wills) - Whiterose Abbey
Dark Wind (+4, +5 bonus to Stealth checks, increase sneak damage with any weapon by 1d6)
Chaos Shard (+2, chance to confuse on hit)
Lighting Duelist (+1, Shock, +4 Insight bonus, +1 Dodge bonus)- Pitax
Arcane Protector (+1, +3 to Dodge, Immunity to nauseated confition)

Dueling Sword:
Royal Gift (+3, Keen, additional 1d6 damage)
Arcane Enforcer (+3)
Swordsman's Passion (+2, Agile)

Estoc:
Forsaken Edge (+2, Unholy)
Hairsplitter (+1, Agile)

Falcata:
Decapitator (+2, Keen, Furious)

Heavy Mace:
Authority (+5, Unholy)- Pitax
Righteous Punishment (+4, +4 attack rolls against targets affected Smite Evil or Mark of Justice)
Mallet of Woe (+3, Freedom of Movement effect)
SkullCrusher (+2, Heavy Blow, Stun on crit)
Executioner (+2, Human Bane)

Heavy Pick:
Demolisher (+1, Construct Bane)

Kama:
Talon of the Wise (+2, Agile)

Kukri:
Cold Blood (+4, Agile, Freezing)
Fiery Blood (+4, Incinerating)
Mother's Care (+2, Keen, Frost)

Light Hammer
Torpor (+1, Destructive, Torpor)

Longsword:
Rageclaw (+2, Adamantine, Furious)

Punching Dagger:
Prehistoric Tooth (+4, Lethal, Necrotic Burst)

Rapier:
Black Salt (+5, damage to random ability) - Pitax
Putride Blade (+3, Agile, Corrosive, +20 acid resistance, 1/day cast Spit Venon)
Stratagem (+2, Agile)- Capital
Deadly Grace (+1, Keen, Unfair Advantage, chance to deal 2d4 acid damage) - Pitax

Scimitar:
Jolt (+3, Shock, Runic Mageblade) - Rushlight Fields
Slicer (+2, Runic Mageblade)

Shortsword:
Nature's Will (+2, Vermin Bane)

Sicle:
Chilly Midnight (+3, Cold Iron, Chance to Dextery damage on hit)

Trident
Bound Thunder (+1, Shock, 1/day cast Lighting Bolt)

Two-bladed sword:
Twin Cristals (+5, Agile, Keen)

Warhammer:
Chaos Hammer (+4, Anarchic) - Rushlight Fields
Noble Warhammer (+3)
Warhammer of Hatred (+1, Giant Bane)

2-HAND WEAPONS

Bardiche:
Rod of Razors (+5, Keen,) - Pitax

Greataxe:
Extinguisher (+2, Extinguisher)
Trollreaper (+1, Corrosive)
Second Execution (+1, Undead Bane)

Greatclub:
The Crusher (+2, Oversized)

Glaive
Incorruptible Petal (+5, Holy, Ultrasound)

Falchion:
Beastrender (+2, Animal Bane)
Fury's Legacy (+2, Furious)

Large bastard sword:
Ovinrbaane (+5, Oversized, Anarchic, Speed) - kill Armag

Longspear:
Dragonslayer (+5 Dragon Bane)
Singing Edge (+3, Bardic Perfomance)

Quaterstaff:
Crimson Counselor (+2, Fire Gemstone)

Scythe:
Hand of Damnation (+2, Keen, Death Reservour)
Eternal Conduit (+2, Arcane Insriptions)

Shortspear:
Mourning (+4, Keen, Chance to cast Crushing Despair (on hit) and Finger of Death (on critical)) - Brineheart

Spear:
Longshank Bane (+1, Longshank Bane)


RANGED WEAPONS

Heavy Crossbow:
Ankle Breaker (+1, Slowdown)

Longbow:
Devourer of Metal (+1, Composite, Oversized, Greater Corrosive)
Lucky Longbow (+1, Composite, The Luck of the Draw)
Savage Bow (+1, Composite, 3/day cast Ascpect of the Flacon)
Nobleman's Amusent (+1, Elite Expertise)

Shortbow:
Whimsy (+3, chance to cast Hideous Laughter on hit) - Rushlight Fields


SHIELDS

Buckler:
Arrowguard (+4, additional +3 bonus against ranged attacks)
Bladeguard (+3, additional +3 bonus against melee attacks)

Light shield:
Spiked Light Shiled (+5) - Rushlight Fields

Heavy shield:
Child of Wind (+3, increase speed +10)
Blessed Defence (+3, 1/day cast Divine power)
Protector of Unjust (+2, additional +2 against good or lawful)
Ancestral Dwarwen Shield (+2, DR 2/-)
Bashing Shield (+1, Bash)

Tower shield:
Defender's Bulwark (+3, DR 2/-)
Flameguard (+1, +10 fire resistance, +3 Refles saving throws) - Capital

Also: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OqCOa0wmfzvp7y-N75WiWguwNusU-Lf3/view

You can see there is a wide variety of weapons offering lots of different advantages. Some are good against constructs, giants, etc.

I just don't think it's worthwhile to specialise in a single weapon type.

If I come across a Construct, I can just whip out my Construct Bane weapon and shit on it, for example.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, etc: this whole line of thinking is really a trap. You gain at the most 1-2 points of AC/to-hit/damage over just going strength instead.

And you lose:

• feats that you could spend on other things
• the ability to pick and choose among whatever weapons you have, and adapt your weapon according to your enemy (e.g. use a construct bane weapon whenever you're fighting constructs
• carrying capacity

That's all good, but Dex Magus builds are perfectly viable and not a trap. It gives you much better AC until level 13 at least, plus Weapon Finesse is only one feat, and there are enough Agile weapons that you don't need Fencing or Slashing Grace. There are some really good scimitars for a Magus, too, so even Slashing Grace isn't a waste.

To use Slashing Grace requires specialism in one weapon, not to mention that it's 3 feats. 3 feats just to be able to use your Dex attribute instead of Strength? 3 feats is a very high investment.

Go strength instead, be able to use any weapon you come across, and invest those feats into Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, gives you 7 AC.

Crane Style/Wing/Riposte is 4 feats (or 3 and a Monk level).
Weapon Focus isn't a wasted feat either if you pick Scimitar, Dueling sword, or Rapier as a Magus, but like I said you can easily get by with just Weapon Finesse and Agile weapons. Dex also bolsters your Reflex save (your only bad saving throw, as a Magus).

If you're going the Crane Style route then a Monk level makes sense, in which case it's easy to justify picking up that Dodge feat.

Weapon Focus is a bad feat because specialising in weapons is counter-productive in a game where you don't know what the best weapons are. You could find a +4 weapon but be unable to use it. Yes there's a decent mid-game Scimitar available, but what about the late-game ones? Being able to use the best weapon for the job at any given moment is a big advantage.

Reflex save: a small increase in Reflex saves isn't going to dramatically shift your save percentage.

People have been posting endgame weapons now, though. That +4 Scimitar is competitive with them, but the best sword is probably the +5 Dueling sword in the Lonely Barrow basement.

The difference in Reflex saves isn't a reason on its own to go Dex, but it will be probably from +3 to +6 compared to a Str build which is non-negligible, especially considering that you'll have better AC for at least half the game.

Besides that, Weapon Finesse+Agile weapon vs Crane Style is 1 feat vs 4.

 

[Yosharian]

People have been posting endgame weapons now, though. That +4 Scimitar is competitive with them, but the best sword is probably the +5 Dueling sword in the Lonely Barrow basement.

The difference in Reflex saves isn't a reason on its own to go Dex, but it will be probably from +3 to +6 compared to a Str build which is non-negligible, especially considering that you'll have better AC for at least half the game.

Besides that, Weapon Finesse+Agile weapon vs Crane Style is 1 feat vs 4.

And it limits your weapon choice massively.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

To use Slashing Grace requires specialism in one weapon, not to mention that it's 3 feats. 3 feats just to be able to use your Dex attribute instead of Strength? 3 feats is a very high investment.

Go strength instead, be able to use any weapon you come across, and invest those feats into Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, gives you 7 AC.

"Forget those early game feats, take these mid to late game feats instead!"

Even taking a dip into monk, a magus still can't get crane wing until level 7 or riposte until level 11. By then, you can wear medium armor anyway. Sure, you can do more damage before level 5 with a STR build, but you'll also have less AC precisely when you need it most. You also push back your spell casting by a level by dipping into monk and that ain't nothing. At the very least, it's much less clear cut than you make it sound.

Weapon Focus is a bad feat because specialising in weapons is counter-productive in a game where you don't know what the best weapons are

In the specific context of a sword saint, which I think was where this tangent started, that's just part of the archetype. You've already paid the opportunity cost in terms of weapon selection and fencing/slashing grace only costs you two feats. If you roll a human sword saint, you can have DEX to both attack and damage for the entire game, and that extra AC from the get-go is very helpful.

And it limits your weapon choice massively.

Even a normal magus should only be using one-handed melee weapons with a high threat range. If you're playing optimally, you're going to be using a rapier, a scimitar or an estoc most of the time anyway. A magus is giving up a lot less by going with grace than most other classes would.

 

[Cael]

Reflex save: a small increase in Reflex saves isn't going to dramatically shift your save percentage.

Gentlemen, please remember that you are playing a d20 game. Every point in something is an extra 5% chance of success. A rat familiar for a Wizard automatically increases his success rate on a Fort save by 10%.

Small numbers matter in the d20 because the range isn't really that big.

This is why stat bloat, phat lewt and other "moar bigger numbers for look bettah" shit fucks up the entire system so badly.

 

[Yosharian]

To use Slashing Grace requires specialism in one weapon, not to mention that it's 3 feats. 3 feats just to be able to use your Dex attribute instead of Strength? 3 feats is a very high investment.

Go strength instead, be able to use any weapon you come across, and invest those feats into Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, gives you 7 AC.

"Forget those early game feats, take these mid to late game feats instead!"

Even taking a dip into monk, a magus still can't get crane wing until level 7 or riposte until level 11. By then, you can wear medium armor anyway. Sure, you can do more damage before level 5 with a STR build, but you'll also have less AC precisely when you need it most. You also push back your spell casting by a level by dipping into monk and that ain't nothing. At the very least, it's much less clear cut than you make it sound.

Weapon Focus is a bad feat because specialising in weapons is counter-productive in a game where you don't know what the best weapons are

In the specific context of a sword saint, which I think was where this tangent started, that's just part of the archetype. You've already paid the opportunity cost in terms of weapon selection and fencing/slashing grace only costs you two feats. If you roll a human sword saint, you can have DEX to both attack and damage for the entire game, and that extra AC from the get-go is very helpful.

And it limits your weapon choice massively.

Even a normal magus should only be using one-handed melee weapons with a high threat range. If you're playing optimally, you're going to be using a rapier, a scimitar or an estoc most of the time anyway. A magus is giving up a lot less by going with grace than most other classes would.

Ok, those are all good points.

 

[Serus]

Might I also add that being restricted in weapon selection in case of a magus is relatively less of a deal than with other classes because one of this class features is the ability to "customize" his weapon against particularly nasty enemies. Or am I missing something here?

 

[Shadenuat]

Unless you use lol my dude fights only with star knives eventually you be ok.

Regongar uses Scimitars so there are special Magus Scimitars in game
There are good rapiers including salty Codex rapier
Estocs not so much but there are at least a few

 

[Zero Credibility]

Might I also add that being restricted in weapon selection in case of a magus is relatively less of a deal than with other classes because one of this class features is the ability to "customize" his weapon against particularly nasty enemies. Or am I missing something here?

Right, magus is already limited in weapon choice anyway (and saint even more), but can use his abilities to cover for deficiency in his weapon instead. Flexibility in weapon choice is more of a fighter thing I think, with bonus feats and full BAB he can afford it.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

On the goblin fort map I've found 2 keen +2 kukris apparently intended for Nok-Nok: Mothers Care and Mothers Warmth, one with frost, the other flaming. Nok is putting out quite the damages currently while sporting a good enough AC to actually stay in melee.

 

[TT1]

I need a Nok Nok build. Anyone?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I need a Nok Nok build. Anyone?

Take him as he is but from then on only level in vivisectionist. this give you more sneak dice and spellcasting (ie. shield and true strike etc which will help you in melee) if you can upgrade the mutagen at some point do that too, unfortunately I don't know how many levels of Vivi you need before you can upgrade the mutagen, take outflank and the twf feats when they become available, put the lvl 8 stat point in dex so he has an even dex , from then on go INT for the vivi spellcasting.

That's what I'm doing with him right now anyway.

 

[Haplo]

Greater Mutagen is Vivisectionist level 12. So not very near...

But you can get Feral Mutagen at vivi 2 for extra bite attack (at -5 AB).

 

[Shadenuat]

What you get > Some Vivi > Standard Fighter all focus and feats on Kukris is how I went for that green chopping machine

 

[vazha]

I need a Nok Nok build. Anyone?

Take him as he is but from then on only level in vivisectionist. this give you more sneak dice and spellcasting (ie. shield and true strike etc which will help you in melee) if you can upgrade the mutagen at some point do that too, unfortunately I don't know how many levels of Vivi you need before you can upgrade the mutagen, take outflank and the twf feats when they become available, put the lvl 8 stat point in dex so he has an even dex , from then on go INT for the vivi spellcasting.

That's what I'm doing with him right now anyway.

Couple of objections.
Take him as he is - yes, do so, only make sure that he's got lvl 8 knifemaster for uncanny dodge.
Go int for vivi spellcasting - I disagree. Pump dex as far as you can and give nok-nok a +int item. He's never going to be much of a mage anyway, so a +4 or even +2 int item will be entirely sufficient for buffs.
Also, no need for feral mutagen - that would deprive you of your most potent offensive capability - kukri crits. Pick preserve organs instead for maximum survivability. Or combat trick. Go naked + bracers.