Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Desiderius]

Desiderius You're being tiresome. I did everything reasonable given the context. Owlcat did a jerk DM move by giving a will-o'wisp the Shield spell. Absent that spell, I wouldn't have reloaded. Owlcat even acknowledges it, as the game autosaves when you selected the campfire to rest and trigger the event. I'm not complaining about it, because it's game. DMs can be jerks sometimes. I thought about it, accepted the challenge, and succeeded upon reload. This isn't a teaching moment.

beat the idiot to death while you go get a tea

Oh look more people blaming the game because they suck at multiple levels. Talk about tiresome.

This game is a throwback to pre-faceroll where players were expected to read their abilities and cues from the environment. The cues say :

(1) There's no quest or any other indication that there's anything to gain here.

(2) Previous parties who ignored the environmental cues didn't get shiny new thing, they're dead.

Completionist says let's try it out just to make sure. Oh Lightining and high AC, lets come back when I can handle Lightning and get my AB up.

At level five you've got all the tools you need to stay alive and win in three rounds tops. Unless you're too lazy to read your abilities and your AB sux.

Then you win and find out about the only thing you get out of it is a Diamond so skip it on subsequent playthroughs. Easy.

They give you an autosave because you're slumming with the casuals. Shield spell? Really? Why do people expect to win the whole game with one fucking first level spell??? Jesus.

Git gud.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Most people, self included, encounter this at Level 4. Even then, one has all of the right tools available to them, it's just a low blow.

Smoulderburn is a unique Will-o'wisp with 37 AC before it casts Shield (+4). Shield protects it from the singular spell it is not immune to. It has 124 HP and DR 5/magic. No character has a magic weapon at this point. Characters are only going to hit it on natural 20 or with a high roll while using the True Strike wand. Even then, that's a lot of HP to chip through. Triple the normal will-o'wisp. It has 4 sorcerer levels on top of its 9 aberration. Scare can be devastating. While it's reasonable to have at least 1 Remove Fear going in, he casts it repeatedly. Smoulderburn also has unique AI where he regularly switches targets--typically after casting Scare. Most people will not have access to communal resist energy. I had two L2 resist energies memorized. Even still, he has +23/23 attack and does 3d8 damage. Owlcat gave it Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse.

It was intended to be a kick in the pants. That's only a problem for virgin Ironman players. I have no problem with designers intending the player to reload for certain encounters. People don't skip content for the same reason they don't skip parts of their food at a restaurant. Even with the context clues, it was intended to "saddistic game design" in Owlcat's own parlance. Why you are falling on your sword to swear this encounter as being something else, is bizarre.

 

[scytheavatar]

Most people, self included, encounter this at Level 4. Even then, one has all of the right tools available to them, it's just a low blow.

Smoulderburn is a unique Will-o'wisp with 37 AC before it casts Shield (+4). Shield protects it from the singular spell it is not immune to. It has 124 HP and DR 5/magic. No character has a magic weapon at this point. Characters are only going to hit it on natural 20 or with a high roll while using the True Strike wand. Even then, that's a lot of HP to chip through. Triple the normal will-o'wisp. It has 4 sorcerer levels on top of its 9 aberration. Scare can be devastating. While it's reasonable to have at least 1 Remove Fear going in, he casts it repeatedly. Smoulderburn also has unique AI where he regularly switches targets--typically after casting Scare. Most people will not have access to communal resist energy. I had two L2 resist energies memorized. Even still, he has +23/23 attack and does 3d8 damage. Owlcat gave it Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse.

It was intended to be a kick in the pants. That's only a problem for virgin Ironman players. I have no problem with designers intending the player to reload for certain encounters. People don't skip content for the same reason they don't skip parts of their food at a restaurant. Even with the context clues, it was intended to "saddistic game design" in Owlcat's own parlance. Why you are falling on your sword to swear this encounter as being something else, is bizarre.

Just get a few Resist Energy scrolls, plus one communal version, and the fight gets trivalized. It's not like these scrolls are expensive.

 

[EdgyRightWinger]

Just get a few Resist Energy scrolls, plus one communal version

These scrolls are energy type specific, so until you're fully spoiled you would need to buy all, or more likely none.

 

[Cael]

Most people, self included, encounter this at Level 4. Even then, one has all of the right tools available to them, it's just a low blow.

Smoulderburn is a unique Will-o'wisp with 37 AC before it casts Shield (+4). Shield protects it from the singular spell it is not immune to. It has 124 HP and DR 5/magic. No character has a magic weapon at this point. Characters are only going to hit it on natural 20 or with a high roll while using the True Strike wand. Even then, that's a lot of HP to chip through. Triple the normal will-o'wisp. It has 4 sorcerer levels on top of its 9 aberration. Scare can be devastating. While it's reasonable to have at least 1 Remove Fear going in, he casts it repeatedly. Smoulderburn also has unique AI where he regularly switches targets--typically after casting Scare. Most people will not have access to communal resist energy. I had two L2 resist energies memorized. Even still, he has +23/23 attack and does 3d8 damage. Owlcat gave it Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse.

It was intended to be a kick in the pants. That's only a problem for virgin Ironman players. I have no problem with designers intending the player to reload for certain encounters. People don't skip content for the same reason they don't skip parts of their food at a restaurant. Even with the context clues, it was intended to "saddistic game design" in Owlcat's own parlance. Why you are falling on your sword to swear this encounter as being something else, is bizarre.

Just get a few Resist Energy scrolls, plus one communal version, and the fight gets trivalized. It's not like these scrolls are expensive.

Needing metagame knowledge to not get party wiped is bad game design. That is what everyone is saying and have been saying about that stupid retarded game from Day One.

 

[Efe]

it would work in a game like dragon's lair.
And above encounter does tell you its going to fuck you over. You don't need metagame knowledge.

If you look at it from the other side, most of the time what fucks you over is your meta-knowledge. You expect that map zone to be leveled according to your level because games conditioned you that way.

 

[Cael]

it would work in a game like dragon's lair.
And above encounter does tell you its going to fuck you over. You don't need metagame knowledge.

If you look at it from the other side, most of the time what fucks you over is your meta-knowledge. You expect that map zone to be leveled according to your level because games conditioned you that way.

People expect a normal wisp, which is fine for a party of the indicated level. A unique one with beefed up stats and spellcasting to cover the one gaping hole it has in its defences? That is DMG to the head territory.

 

[KainenMorden]

I'm just starting act 2, entangle and the smilodon are my best offensive weapons and took enlarge person which has been a big help. I took glitterdust but haven't used it yet.

Haven't touched reg,Octavia or Tristian yet but thinking of having reg take lvls in dragon disciple and Octavia will be an arcane trickster. Tristian I think just pure cleric will be fine but maybe I should turn him to druid?

I'm thinking of keeping Harrim full cleric and focusing on necromancy spells/feats.

I'm still debating whether I should keep Amiri as pure Barb or dip into freebooter and how many lvls/what feats to take and when if I do so. Ive seen a 10/10 split recommended.

I took one lvl of thug on Valerie, seems like it was a good investment. Should I take more?

Just reading up on the kingdom management stuff now. I really want to play the game as devs originally intended so I'm not going to put it on auto but I understand many players feel it's a waste of time/not implemented well but I'd like to try it and draw my own conclusions.

Having a lot of fun with my Sylvan sorc MC. As for that wisp encounter, yes it's quite difficult at that point in the game but I enjoy difficult encounters. Maybe it was overkill by the devs but I'm fine with it, it's not a mandatory fight.

As for it requiring meta knowledge, well, Ive never been against meta gaming at all. All games of this type require a lot of reading up on rules and because of the complexity of the system/it's differences with 3.5e, I imagine most players meta game to some extent from the beginning.

I don't think that much meta game knowledge if any is needed for that encounter, it's just a matter of understanding what you're up against and choosing appropriate tactics after he wipes out your party a few times of course. That was standard protocol in the crpgs I grew up with.

I actually haven't beaten him yet but did clear the rest of old sycamore easily after getting to around lvl 4. Only lvl 5 now but I will return to kill the wisp at some point.

Beyond that, I felt the combat is well balanced and the encounter design is excellent thus far imho. I feel like the whole game is well done and am enjoying it in all aspects but I also don't feel the need to nitpick about every aspect of a game as some players do. I mostly play for interesting combat and everything else is a plus. Not a fan of wokeism/pozz in general and it hasn't come up much yet but I wouldn't let those things interfere with my enjoyment for the gameplay. I did find it weird they made it a point to write in that grown men were writing love letters to Valerie when she was 9 years old but whatever.

Also, it would probably be easier for me to play the tough battles turn based given my MC and I usually prefer tb overall but I do enjoy rtwp as well and Im fine playing that way even if it does get hectic at times. I also play without ai on at all except with the smilodon. Not sure if you can switch off its ai but I really have no need to do far.

One thing about enemy ai, yes I've noticed they don't target your casters/squishy characters how I think they should but then again in some games like Toee, enemies target casters while leaving themselves open to attacks of opportunity and getting flanked by the warriors so, I'm ok with this as well.

 

[Sarathiour]

Taking dragon disciple level for reg is pretty common, but you have to consider when you want to do that, and what skill of the ES class your delaying. ES capestone (level 20 skill) is often regarded as pretty meh, henceforth why lot of people dip a few level elsewhere, especially given that owlcat still haven't included intensified spell feat (at least to my knowledge).
Aracane trickster is the standard build for octavia, you can't really go wrong with it. I think people argue about the number of rogue level you should take (ie between 1 and 4).

I took one lvl of thug on Valerie, seems like it was a good investment. Should I take more?

I mean, it depend on what your are planning to do. Taking a second level will grant evasion, which is a nice perk, but redundant with level 16 TSS.

Just reading up on the kingdom management stuff now. I really want to play the game as devs originally intended so I'm not going to put it on auto but I understand many players feel it's a waste of time/not implemented well but I'd like to try it and draw my own conclusions.

Honestly, this people tend to everblow how bad it is. It's nothing spectacular for a minigame, and the balance of it is certainly odd, especially when you go blind. Some general advice (nothing spoilery, but better safe than sorry)

Spoiler

-Don't be a retard, you're going to have an urgent crisis to deal with each chapter, start by dealing with it, you're going to have time for collecting mushroom in the wild between each chapter.
-Building main purpose is to reach the threshold for upgrading the related stat, and not much else. There is very few building that raise chance of success for event, those should be a priority. You are also going to unlock few Qol one later, like the tower or teleportation circle.
-Speaking of event, every advisor as it own way of dealing with problem, which translate in different stat gain. Also some got bonus or malus for specific event, indicated by the green of red mark on the card.
-The main appeal of kingdom management is to gain artisan. Try to get them asap, they are going to give you useful stuff.
-The minigame is essentially a money sink, you're going to have to invest a shitload of money if you want to max everything

Not a fan of wokeism/pozz in general and it hasn't come up much yet but I wouldn't let those things interfere with my enjoyment for the gameplay.

Honestly, it's rather tame for a pathfinder license product. You are not really going to see much of it beside octavia and regongar.

 

[Cael]

The problem with the kingdom management thing is that you inevitably end up with a TON of failures due to your advisor being busy. The events are limited, repetitive and you can end up with several events demanding the same guy at the same time. So, you need to be prepared to have a bunch of maluses to your kingdom stats. Also, unless you have foreknowledge (i.e., metagame), you will get hit but massive, repeated maluses at certain points because your guy happened to be doing something else at the time.

As for gaining artisans, again, it is a metagame thing. To know where to get them, to know the prerequisites to open up those areas, to target those areas first, and to know what prerequisites level them up. That has been the major complaint against the entire game: It requires you metagame.

Compare it with BG or NWN, for example, where you don't need to metagame to do things in the relative "proper" order.

 

[Sarathiour]

The problem with the kingdom management thing is that you inevitably end up with a TON of failures due to your advisor being busy.

I don't think this ever happen to me, you're given ample time for each event to solve it.
Unless you started one of those 45+ days long project with your high priest or shit like that early on, but then that's on you.

 

[Cael]

The problem with the kingdom management thing is that you inevitably end up with a TON of failures due to your advisor being busy.

I don't think this ever happen to me, you're given ample time for each event to solve it.
Unless you started one of those 45+ days long project with your high priest or shit like that early on, but then that's on you.

I call fucking bullshit on your assertion. I have had 7-8 event turn up every refresh and you get your guys all assigned and there were 2-6 events that had no one able to fix within the timeframe given. Multiple times.

Eventually, I learnt to save scum the damned thing.

Fuck that retarded shit. There are good reasons why I never went back to that game ever again, and I have played through NWN OC 3-5 times, NWN2 4 times, BG1 3 times, IWD2 and ToEE too many times to remember.

 

[EdgyRightWinger]

Fuck that retarded shit. There are good reasons why I never went back to that game ever again, and I have played through NWN OC 3-5 times, NWN2 4 times, BG1 3 times, IWD2 and ToEE too many times to remember.

 

[mondblut]

Owlcat did a jerk DM move by giving a will-o'wisp the Shield spell.

What's wrong with that? Jerk DMs is a staple of the genre. Like giving trolls rings of fire resistance... wait, they did that, too.

 

[Desiderius]

Fuck that retarded shit. There are good reasons why I never went back to that game ever again, and I have played through NWN OC 3-5 times, NWN2 4 times, BG1 3 times, IWD2 and ToEE too many times to remember.

View attachment 33462

Lol and miss out on Artisans that gate most of the (great) item design. Then we get people whining about lack of item support. Vicious race to suckitude.

No character has a magic weapon at this point.

I have no words for this level of suck.

What's wrong with that? Jerk DMs is a staple of the genre. Like giving trolls rings of fire resistance... wait, they did that, too.

Along with multiple broken Acid weapons, an Acid cantrip, and free Acid Wands. Your helicopter parent DMs were evidently abusive alright, just not in the way you think they were.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm just starting act 2, entangle and the smilodon are my best offensive weapons and took enlarge person which has been a big help. I took glitterdust but haven't used it yet.

Haven't touched reg,Octavia or Tristian yet but thinking of having reg take lvls in dragon disciple and Octavia will be an arcane trickster. Tristian I think just pure cleric will be fine but maybe I should turn him to druid?

I'm thinking of keeping Harrim full cleric and focusing on necromancy spells/feats.

I'm still debating whether I should keep Amiri as pure Barb or dip into freebooter and how many lvls/what feats to take and when if I do so. Ive seen a 10/10 split recommended.

I took one lvl of thug on Valerie, seems like it was a good investment. Should I take more?

Just reading up on the kingdom management stuff now. I really want to play the game as devs originally intended so I'm not going to put it on auto but I understand many players feel it's a waste of time/not implemented well but I'd like to try it and draw my own conclusions.

Having a lot of fun with my Sylvan sorc MC. As for that wisp encounter, yes it's quite difficult at that point in the game but I enjoy difficult encounters. Maybe it was overkill by the devs but I'm fine with it, it's not a mandatory fight.

As for it requiring meta knowledge, well, Ive never been against meta gaming at all. All games of this type require a lot of reading up on rules and because of the complexity of the system/it's differences with 3.5e, I imagine most players meta game to some extent from the beginning.

I don't think that much meta game knowledge if any is needed for that encounter, it's just a matter of understanding what you're up against and choosing appropriate tactics after he wipes out your party a few times of course. That was standard protocol in the crpgs I grew up with.

I actually haven't beaten him yet but did clear the rest of old sycamore easily after getting to around lvl 4. Only lvl 5 now but I will return to kill the wisp at some point.

Beyond that, I felt the combat is well balanced and the encounter design is excellent thus far imho. I feel like the whole game is well done and am enjoying it in all aspects but I also don't feel the need to nitpick about every aspect of a game as some players do. I mostly play for interesting combat and everything else is a plus. Not a fan of wokeism/pozz in general and it hasn't come up much yet but I wouldn't let those things interfere with my enjoyment for the gameplay. I did find it weird they made it a point to write in that grown men were writing love letters to Valerie when she was 9 years old but whatever.

Also, it would probably be easier for me to play the tough battles turn based given my MC and I usually prefer tb overall but I do enjoy rtwp as well and Im fine playing that way even if it does get hectic at times. I also play without ai on at all except with the smilodon. Not sure if you can switch off its ai but I really have no need to do far.

One thing about enemy ai, yes I've noticed they don't target your casters/squishy characters how I think they should but then again in some games like Toee, enemies target casters while leaving themselves open to attacks of opportunity and getting flanked by the warriors so, I'm ok with this as well.

Octavia is designed to be Arcane Trickster. Reg, Tristian, and Harrim all do well single-classed. Barb1/Freebooter10/then back to Barb or continue Freebooter either way works. Also pure Barb with Reckless Stance and Inspire Ferocity has a similar effect once you learn how to keep her alive. Once you have 1 Thug level on Val the next three are full BAB so ok either way. You sacrifice base class development for Rogue stuff. Main benefit of Rogue is free Finesse and DEX-to-Dam which she doesn't need.

The Kingdom Management is in fact very rewarding and interesting but tragically unfinished lategame (maybe because so many people caught the brainworm that it sucked before they ever even tried to play it so devs figured why bother). Look at what's needed to unlock Regions and Artisans and try to get your Kingdom Ranks up to those levels ASAP. Best items (and later some abilities) are gated behind Artisans and they provide a good income stream.

Only thing that can bite you is the Curse so make sure you're free in the capital when it gets down to 14 days left.

 

[EdgyRightWinger]

Lol and miss out on Artisans that gate most of the (great) item design. Then we get people whining about lack of item support. Vicious race to suckitude.

Fine, put it on Effortless. You'll still occasionally fail, and even more rarely get event swamped, but it won't matter.

Along with multiple broken Acid weapons, an Acid cantrip, and free Acid Wands. Your helicopter parent DMs were evidently abusive alright, just not in the way you think they were.

And Coup de Grace, which even animal companions can do.

 

[Desiderius]

There's no reason to ever get event swamped or to fail in any quantity that would matter.

I guess if you go in blind, let the curse eat tons of stats during a mistimed rank-up, then don't reload?

 

[EdgyRightWinger]

Which companions are immortal, and what restrictions are there on it? So far I know about:

• Jaethal comes back to life after every combat. One of her companion quest resolutions can remove this ability.
• Linzi teleports back to base if killed. She will always die permanently right before the endgame.
• Tristian teleports back to base if killed. I think he loses this ability halfway through the game.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Cael]

Which companions are immortal, and what restrictions are there on it? So far I know about:

• Jaethal comes back to life after every combat. One of her companion quest resolutions can remove this ability.
• Linzi teleports back to base if killed. She will always die permanently right before the endgame.
• Tristian teleports back to base if killed. I think he loses this ability halfway through the game.

Did I miss anything?

Every single animal companion comes back after a rest. Makes charging them in to a pack of spectres profitable and hilarious.

 

[Iskramor]

Desiderius i know that mixing caster and martial classes is not good idea but do you think if BG1 party of khalid, jaheira,branwen,coran,imoen, is viable recreation in PFKM on normal difficulty settings?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Desiderius i know that mixing caster and martial classes is not good idea but do you think if BG1 party of khalid, jaheira,branwen,coran,imoen, is viable recreation in PFKM on normal difficulty settings?

Hrm. Pathfinder is bloated enough where you don't necessarily need to multiclass. It's got niches for everybody, even if they are not all created equal.

Khalid = Magus
Jaheria = Druid (Defender of the True World)
Branwen = Cleric (Crusader)
Coran = Slayer (Spawn Slayer)
Imoen = Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Scoundrel (AT preferred)

That would probably work in just about any campaign. Especially since you still have +1 for MC. Maybe do a bard or Hospitaler paladin. I found it Hospitaler to be a great MC.

 

[EdgyRightWinger]

Makes charging them in to a pack of spectres profitable and hilarious.

I haven't encountered those yet in KM.

Do they create spawn, as in tabletop, which can then be killed for more XP?

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius i know that mixing caster and martial classes is not good idea but do you think if BG1 party of khalid, jaheira,branwen,coran,imoen, is viable recreation in PFKM on normal difficulty settings?

I’m not sure what you’re asking.

A comparable experience would probably be:

Val
Amiri (with Ranger or Druid lvls)
Octavia
Ekun
Linzi

Which is solid enough I guess though missing a Divine Caster so MC could fill that gap. Amiri’s WIS is too low to be a realistic Fighter/Cleric.

Unlike BG inactive companions still get EXP so it can benefit you to mix and match for different challenges. Some locations force this.

 

[Iskramor]

Desiderius i know that mixing caster and martial classes is not good idea but do you think if BG1 party of khalid, jaheira,branwen,coran,imoen, is viable recreation in PFKM on normal difficulty settings?

I’m not sure what you’re asking.

A comparable experience would probably be:

Val
Amiri (with Ranger or Druid lvls)
Octavia
Ekun
Linzi

Which is solid enough I guess though missing a Divine Caster so MC could fill that gap. Amiri’s WIS is too low to be a realistic Fighter/Cleric.

Unlike BG inactive companions still get EXP so it can benefit you to mix and match for different challenges. Some locations force this.

Sry i badly communicated it.I need mercenaries to MIMIC BG1 companions.Like @Mr. Magniloquent said coran= Spawn slayer mercenarie