Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Delterius]

I read you can make a mystic theurge combo with a rank 3 ability of the lich giving stat damage by hit.

Negative stats with magic missile is an old meme. It is icing on the cake, not really powerful and its not really a special combo for mystic theurge. That said if all you want is casting power then you don't want to mystic theurge at all. At least not with lich. Lich gets to spellbook merge with arcane casters, which means you get higher CL and faster spell progression. IE Wizard 9 Lich 3 casts as a Wizard 12. It is arguably broken in a bad way but I don't think anyone but really anal people even give a fuck at this point. A mystic theurge build even with spellbook merging is going to net you a CL 18, CL 22 caster. By just not merging you'll be CL 20 / CL 20, and by merging you can be CL 30. It's just not worth it unless you're doing a fun build of 'oh look, I am feyspeaker/thassilonian conjurer/mystic theurge/angel and can cast every spell ever'.

 

[Desiderius]

So lets look at some specific cases:

Spoiler

Here's what my single class MC just picked up at level 14. Pls do enlighten me on all the awesome benefits your splashes and dips would provide that Ninth Level spells don't.

Min/max lol. BTW, Wrath is probably the fourth most broken spell on that page.

I think I'll live without the Vivi splash or whatever. Let's look at the other characters:

HK9 is where HK finally starts getting a payoff. His one hour summon even turns into a Hell Hound. 5 + 9 = you guessed it, 14.

All of Sosiel's awesome, unique Domain abilities scale on "level in the class that gave you access to this domain." Whenever you see that it means "don't splash." Of course as a caster he already wants to stay single class to get to his spells and beat SR. Next level he finally gets Frightful Aspect and will completely own.

Since he starts with Selective Channel you're also kind of priced in to single-classing to make that viable as well.

Left out the part where his Arrows get bigger as you level in this class like a Monk's fist, but you can see it in that 2d6. Single Class Ember just learned Legendary Proportions, Bows have a x3 Crit multiplier, etc

Now I will almost certainly multi-class Lann soon because the scaling benefits here are modest and since the Ki abilities don't bypass SR like Bombs and Arcanist Rays do they're of limited utility.

ZA really lays the wood when played well but I'll probably end up making him a Hunter or Druid most of the time since I hate Camellia. Depends if I'm planning to use Aru or not.

Bard was the class that first got me thinking about the single vs multiclass issue after InEffective gave an abomination of a Bard build to a little kid that I knew couldn't be right.

If you can read I think it's clear why you'd have no interest in splashes here. Especially with Slow Spell progression:

Very nice spellbook, but only way I got even to here is to stick with Bard. I'll be using the Mythic ability that lets you copy all abilities from one school to another to copy all the Enchantment boosts to Evocation.

Now I am building Nenio as SS10/Arcane Enforcer1/EK9 because the second half of SS is so underwhelming and she comes with a bite and can get Pounce at lvl 15 that way, Transformation, etc... Arcane Enforcer is a Slayer Archetype that gets an Arcanist Exploit at level 1 so you can take the Move Action Teleportation with is awesome with Nenio.

 

[Desiderius]

No need to be an arrogant cunt

Indeed there wasn't.

Don't start swinging your dick around if you can't handle the sight of a bigger one, my man.

It's even worse when you're swinging someone else's dick around and haven't bothered to test their assumptions.

 

[Desiderius]

Here's a decent Unfair fight where I was trying a little harder:

Spoiler

Modest AC but you don't see 64 WIS everyday. With Magic Weapon, Greater stacking unfortunately the double DR/Adamantine doesn't do much. At least they've now capped it at +5 total.

Notice all the prebuffs. This is progress.

Greater Angelic should have given +4 Resist but whatever. 50 DC naice, naice. Angel buffs are absurd (Immune to Disease and Ability Drain Communal is lvl 7 so you get it right after becoming Angel). Since the spells are the main threat here just a matter of ganking this guy before he gets down to attacking.

64 WIS = whatever you were planning to do with Intimidate isn't happening.

Likewise Dispels need help if they're going to do anything in general. Think I'll try to take Spell Focus Abjuration at some point for Dismissal then take Spell Specialization to boost Dispel maybe. The Feats that trigger on successful Dispels also makes this look like a fruitful avenue to explore.

MC Angel had a little better luck.

Whatever that mystery Dispel was it shaved 8 AC off which made all the difference. That (Holy) damage MC is doing after Seelah hits is from 7th level Angel buff Sun-Marked. It's min/lvl. Busted. Avenger's Blessing is rnd/lvl.

Evidently also Dispelled Mark of Justice, which shouldn't happen.

Mark of Justice going from winmore to very much needed for Unfair makes me think I'll either keep Seelah a Pal or play MC Pal (maybe with Martyr) and let Seelah go Dirge Bard.

Regill clearing out the chaff. That extra packet of (Holy) damage from the Insane Half-Elf at bottom is from Regill's Leading Strike which will only get better and better. He doesn't even have Improved Two-Weapon yet. Should be playing Ember because she's good but Regill too much fun.

Seelah's Mount doing OK here. Looks like a Smilodon but only has two attax with no iteratives. Don't even have access to Animal Growth in this party so definitely underutilized.

Didn't plan to do much attacking so not fully buffed. Kit Bard does get bite + Pounce at 15 so can be built for attacking, but this one more for casting.

Sosiel on the other hand is already doing good work attacking and will only get better. Sorcerous Reflex lets him fire off a Prayer or Divine Power as a Swift action then smash.

Untyped AC always better than it looks.

 

[Yosharian]

Multiclassing and staying pure both have benefits, it depends on the specific build you are trying to make.

 

[Efe]

what else does it help other than stack ac?

Also arcane Enforcer on nenio ?? why?

 

[Yosharian]

what else does it help other than stack ac?

Also arcane Enforcer on nenio ?? why?

Main reasons to multiclass are to obtain multiple benefits that normally cost feats and are important to get, such as armour or weapon proficiencies, bonus feats, special abilities etc

 

[Mortmal]

I read you can make a mystic theurge combo with a rank 3 ability of the lich giving stat damage by hit.

Negative stats with magic missile is an old meme. It is icing on the cake, not really powerful and its not really a special combo for mystic theurge. That said if all you want is casting power then you don't want to mystic theurge at all. At least not with lich. Lich gets to spellbook merge with arcane casters, which means you get higher CL and faster spell progression. IE Wizard 9 Lich 3 casts as a Wizard 12. It is arguably broken in a bad way but I don't think anyone but really anal people even give a fuck at this point. A mystic theurge build even with spellbook merging is going to net you a CL 18, CL 22 caster. By just not merging you'll be CL 20 / CL 20, and by merging you can be CL 30. It's just not worth it unless you're doing a fun build of 'oh look, I am feyspeaker/thassilonian conjurer/mystic theurge/angel and can cast every spell ever'.

Thats the kind of answer i was expecting. Could not know it was a meme i am just discovering stuff on WOTR.

 

[Seari]

That's a cool Nenio build Desiderius, I might use it if I have too many ranged characters.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean Kitsune has bite + pounce so...

I've given her the ranged feats last two times through for her Blind beam thingie and because the game has great xbows but with abundant casting you should just be able to cast and then pick up melee stuff mid to late. Low starting STR kind of a bummer but you can power thru that by the time you get the Pounce. Finessing the Bite with Agile Fists currently not working or she'd also be fine tank as DEX-based.

 

[Desiderius]

Could not know it was a meme i am just discovering stuff on WOTR.

It was a P:K meme that turned out to be wrong. You were looking down your nose based on obsolete theories from previous game.

Slayer gives Nenio a variety of benefits (there's equipment that triggers off of Studied Target for instance) but main motivation here is Martial Prof for EK and EK to get to 10 BAB to qualify for Kitsune Vulpine Pounce Feat.

Pounce + Dragonform = pretty good.

11 Move Action teleports per rest from Archetype is gravy but incredibly good when you've got Cones to position. Spells are Standard Action so Move Action teleport is exactly what you're looking for.

She ends up down two caster levels total so still gets to lvl 9 spells and by the time you hit the splash you've got decent Spell Pen from Mythic so Caster Level not as crucial.

 

[Efe]

Dont get me wrong, teleport as move, charge as standart into full attack pounce sounds really great.
but like you said, not that much on nenio

 

[Desiderius]

Designing a Scroll Savant from scratch is a different problem than designing a Scroll Savant given Kitsune.

She's already paid that price, it's a matter of cashing in on it. By the time you get to the splash the difference between 8 base STR and 16 base STR is rapidly becoming not trivial but close enough given the other benefits.

 

[Desiderius]

For TB (easier to manage Swift Actions) go SS10/EK10 and burn the Feat for Martial Prof to get EK capstone depending on how fast you get to 20.

Thing to keep in mind is quality of life from lvl 11 to 20 and how feat starved she is tho and how strong teleport effects are (see D:OS II). On other hand no TP in Abyss.

 

[Desiderius]

Salient feature of a game where inactive companions still gain experience (unlike BG for instance) is that you can design different companions for different stages of the game. If you really want lvl 9 spells and EK capstone for endgame you can just play Wolj until you get there then switch.​

 

[Darkwind]

11 Move Action teleports per rest from Archetype is gravy but incredibly good when you've got Cones to position. Spells are Standard Action so Move Action teleport is exactly what you're looking for.

Sorry to intrude but I also just started a new game with the CotW classes added. Which class/subtype has teleport as move? That sounds interesting to me and I need a last character idea to round out my group.

 

[Desiderius]

I think it’s a roll-your-own from Wrath. Monks are supposed to get Move Action as Ki ability but it’s working in-game as Standard.

Wrath also has a version of Oracle Hermit archetype that ai think is in CotW too.

 

[Tomasety]

Hello again.

I found out this piece of information on reddit regarding "fighting defensively" which was something I had many doubts regarding how it was applied on in-game. Also, I've been trying to stay away from using crayne style in every single melee build as I started to realize it was not a good idea at least in normal difficulty.

I also started a new playthrough this time with double FeySpeaker (Valerie and MC) and I must admit I prefer Valerie as a Feyspeaker instead Bard. Maybe because I couldn't figure out how to make build her as Bard but I still have horrible nightmares regarding The House at the End of Time and the loss of the bard on it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

<boomer>What buffles me is that all that is written in this post is explained in-game. Yes, one needs to read the descriptions of the crane feats, but it is there. And it has been there since 2018</boomer>

 

[Desiderius]

"you can grab the Crane Style feat just by splashing monk"

The amount of damage that "just" did to this game is incalculable. We're lucky this game isn't level-scaled as ruthlessly as most games are these days but it was still pretty bad.

 

[Seari]

Spoiler

You guys are sleeping on the Conjuration Feyspeaker. Slowing Mud AoE Daze first round and Slow effect. Snowball is just great, stagger on a level 1 spell, also Faerie Fire (druid only). The most overlooked ability of the Feyspeaker is Resist Nature's Lure, +4 to saves versus all spells and abilities of the Fey and Plants in this setting? Crazy good. When not casting you can hang in melee as Wild Shaped Smilodon with Mirror Image and Displacement.

Edit: Have yet to try out the 5th level Conjuration spell Cave Fangs, might be good.

 

[Tomasety]

Spoiler

You guys are sleeping on the Conjuration Feyspeaker. Slowing Mud AoE Daze first round and Slow effect. Snowball is just great, stagger on a level 1 spell, also Faerie Fire (druid only). The most overlooked ability of the Feyspeaker is Resist Nature's Lure, +4 to saves versus all spells and abilities of the Fey and Plants in this setting? Crazy good. When not casting you can hang in melee as Wild Shaped Smilodon with Mirror Image and Displacement.

Edit: Have yet to try out the 5th level Conjuration spell Cave Fangs, might be good.

I had planned two FeySpeakers toons, MC and Valerie but with a more shapeshifting focus on both although I took Spell Focus Conjuration for MC at lvl 1. I stopped playing that playthrough around lvl 6 because 2 Smilodons were just too much, it felt a bit unfair and unbalanced. I must admit my original idea was to make MC a Summoner using Conjuration spells like Creeping Doom but didn't think about the rest spells that were affected by Spell Resistance since I couldn't find feats to fill on it.

I got the idea from Desiderious pictures and also from a gamefaqs guide which used Defender of the World archetype but adapted for Feyspeakers.

 

[Desiderius]

Cave Fangs is kind of broken, but also a pain because Feather Step doesn’t keep your own team out of it. The Entangle version is probably good enough since it’s a Free Action but it just feels like it’s own minigame that I don’t end up using much.

The more desperate you are the better it is since there’s no opportunity cost (probably used it the most in Unfair run) and outside of the Pit spells there aren’t a whole lot of ways to attack Reflex saves*.

You’re not supposed to be able to spam it in the same location so you’ve got to police yourself somewhat. Shld play as additional Swift Action (one use per turn) for best results.

* - other than damage of course. Cave Fang/Pit clunkiness is what converted me to nukage.

 

[Tomasety]

I'm sorry to bother you with a noob question but I've been trying to figure out how to make Aldori Defender + Sworlord build and I'm not quite sure about Disarm and Dazzling alltogether on this combination.

First of all, Dazzling being a Full Round action is something that I personally don't like on a potential char that needs to either hit or disarm the opponent. Second, Disarm as a Combat Maneuver feels worse than Trip and I wouldn't be over thinking this too much if I had the Thiefling race so I could potentially use Haplo's build which looked intertesting enough to try it.
Finally feats, the whole chain is feat starved if I include disarm on it.

So, the first question would be Disarm alongside a Dazzling Display user worth for Aldori Defender 10/Swordlord 1/Monk Scale First(1) ?

Feats I had in mind such as Combat Expertise + Weapon FInesse + Weapon Focus Dueling Sword + BlindFight + Dazzling Display + Crane Style + Combat Reflexes + Outflank + Shatter Defenses + Improved Critical + Piranha Strike + Weapon Specialization DF + Greater Weapon Focus Dueling Sword DF + 2 spare which could be Disarm and maybe Agile Maneuver or anything else which I can't think of (maybe critical focus and hammer the gap??)

And the last but not least question would be "I don't feel quite comfortable seeing I can get caught flat-flooted on a dex based build" which I could prevent with more dips (minimum 2 Bard Archeologist) but I try to take the least dips as possible on any build I try and think about.

Thanks and sorry for the brick of text.

 

[LannTheStupid]

For melee fighters Dazzling Display is taken as the prerequisite for Shatter Defenses, which is one of the strongest feats in the game. So do not sweat over the Dazzling Display action economy; this (usually) should not be used by frontliners.

However, you need someone to scare opponents to proc Shatter. Bardic Dirge of Doom does exactly that; however, there are many other sources.

Also: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/