KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

[Xenich]

Yeah, I bought the game too. Was hoping it'd be like SFB/SFC/FedCom buuuuuuuut it sucked, with a terrible tacked on away team mission thing on top of it. Bleh.

It is a shame really as the game had so much potential.

 

[Xenich]

You know, some people say this game will be a failure if it doesn't cater to more modern ideas. I don't think that is true if they accept the fact that they are a small studio and are willing to live with fair profits.

EQ had roughly 100k subs in 2010 (no idea what it was now). That was before FTP. This game could easily survive off 100k subs. Hell, 50k subs I think $25 (for a niche game, I think this is a reasonable sub point) could handle it easily. Their team is small and while there will need to be some investors to afford the final aspect of push, I don't think they need much to be able to keep a respectable progression of content. What I think will happen is that they will spike to maybe 300-500k on release and maybe a 1/4 of those will actually sub for more than a month and it will stable off a few more months in dropping to the sub 100k numbers. Even so, that is plenty of income to pay off any debts and build some capital into future content.

This idea that you have to be like WoW to make money? Nah, that is what big studios have to make because they are bloated inefficient messes.

 

[Drakron]

You know, some people say this game will be a failure if it doesn't cater to more modern ideas. I don't think that is true if they accept the fact that they are a small studio and are willing to live with fair profits.

And nothing says they are a small studio that is willing to live with fair profits or if that situation will actually happen.

EQ had roughly 100k subs in 2010 (no idea what it was now). That was before FTP.

You should start by not being dishonest.

In 2004 it had 450k subs, the 2010 numbers are irreverent, the game suffered a drop in mid-2005/06, outside the KMMOs Lineage the only one above it in players was Runespace, point is as far Western MMO goes in *MAINSTREAM* it was UO->EQ->WoW ... EQ drop was caused by WoW and by EQ2.

This game could easily survive off 100k subs. Hell, 50k subs I think $25 (for a niche game, I think this is a reasonable sub point) could handle it easily.

And who are you to say that?
Champions Online is pretty much on life support, sure people play it but there have been no new content for years, I suppose you could stay here and do the same content again and again but dont expect to give then a $25 subsidize and somehow you get content or that its even going to stay afloat, reason why CO havent had the plug pulled is because STO and Neverwinter keep the electric bills payed, the studio can afford to keep the servers up with just the janitor occasionally going to check if the lights still work.

Their team is small and while there will need to be some investors to afford the final aspect of push, I don't think they need much to be able to keep a respectable progression of content.

Outside the Shakira pixy dust you inhaled that is ...

What I think will happen is that they will spike to maybe 300-500k on release and maybe a 1/4 of those will actually sub for more than a month and it will stable off a few more months in dropping to the sub 100k numbers. Even so, that is plenty of income to pay off any debts and build some capital into future content

OK let me get this ... you think this MMO that is clearly NON-MAINSTREAM is going to pull the same numbers that EQ itself didnt reach at its height with a $25 montlhy subsidize?

This idea that you have to be like WoW to make money? Nah, that is what big studios have to make because they are bloated inefficient messes.

No, the idea is that its 2015, not 2005 ... the market changed and you are making assumptions based on the tea leaves that come out of your ass.

 

[Xenich]

You know, some people say this game will be a failure if it doesn't cater to more modern ideas. I don't think that is true if they accept the fact that they are a small studio and are willing to live with fair profits.

And nothing says they are a small studio that is willing to live with fair profits or if that situation will actually happen.

I didn't make any assumptions about them wanting to screw people over. It is possible, but that wasn't my point.

EQ had roughly 100k subs in 2010 (no idea what it was now). That was before FTP.

You should start by not being dishonest.

In 2004 it had 450k subs, the 2010 numbers are irreverent, the game suffered a drop in mid-2005/06, outside the KMMOs Lineage the only one above it in players was Runespace, point is as far Western MMO goes in *MAINSTREAM* it was UO->EQ->WoW ... EQ drop was caused by WoW and by EQ2.

What I stated was a fact. You didn't counter my point. Nice straw man.

And who are you to say that?
Champions Online is pretty much on life support, sure people play it but there have been no new content for years, I suppose you could stay here and do the same content again and again but dont expect to give then a $25 subsidize and somehow you get content or that its even going to stay afloat, reason why CO havent had the plug pulled is because STO and Neverwinter keep the electric bills payed, the studio can afford to keep the servers up with just the janitor occasionally going to check if the lights still work.

Their team is small and while there will need to be some investors to afford the final aspect of push, I don't think they need much to be able to keep a respectable progression of content.

Outside the Shakira pixy dust you inhaled that is ...

Well, I was speculating generally. Looks like you are disagreeing, that is fine, but you provided nothing to rebuttal other than claims.

OK let me get this ... you think this MMO that is clearly NON-MAINSTREAM is going to pull the same numbers that EQ itself didnt reach at its height with a $25 montlhy subsidize?

EQ had 550k at its peak. That was when the only people who played MMOs were a very niche crowd. That was before WoW. These days, there are a lot more people playing MMOs. A spike of people on release such as I mentioned is entirely possible even if the game isn't mainstream desired. If it has the graphical appeal (which this game will), it will get people to try it. Regardless, the 25 bucks a month is for the 50k feature I mentioned. I think 1.2 million a month is reasonable to run a game like this. As I said, speculation really. You don't like that, well who cares what fucking idiots like you think?

This idea that you have to be like WoW to make money? Nah, that is what big studios have to make because they are bloated inefficient messes.

No, the idea is that its 2015, not 2005 ... the market changed and you are making assumptions based on the tea leaves that come out of your ass.

The mainstream market does not represent the entire market. That would be like saying that the only music worth making is by Boy bands and pop stars.

Then again, what can we expect from a mainstream WoWtard like you? A fucking idiot who thinks STO is a quality game, but spends all his time whining like a fucking pathetic child about how that company is screwing him over?

What a fucking tool. Run along kiddie, go play your mainstream garbage you fucking twit.

You know, I had you on ignore and didn't notice you posting until Norfleet mentioned you. Now I realize why I had you on ignore. You are just too stupid to discuss with. No really, you are stupid. I would say see someone about that, but I think you are doomed to live a life of idiocy and I find it tiring to try and reason with trash like you, you are too small in intellect to waste time on. Back to ignore you go little piss ant. Now throw a tantrum like you do in the STO forums... life is so unfair!!!

Bye!

 

[Aenra]

Xenich
got three questions if you don't mind indulging me. Could easily find out in their forums, sure; but in all honesty, the fanboy-mode drives me bonkers. Be it in Turm-Based incline games here or shit mmos in mmorpg.com.
Not to say you are exactly impartial yourself (who is), but you at least tend to acknowledge both sides of the spectrum
So assuming you can be bothered:

- has the Jesus lady really been kicked off the 'developing' team? If so, do any of the morons that accompanied her remain? If so, in which parts of the game are they involved in?
- will Pantheon feature instanced zones, of whatever a size? Or will it be akin to Vanguard, with on the fly chunk loading?
- with as much objectivity as you can possibly master (am really not the target audience for this anyway; you won't be sending a fan away) could you give me your opinion in regards to current donation rewards? ie, ingame imbalancing? Subjective? Fluff only?

 

[Xenich]

Xenich
got three questions if you don't mind indulging me. Could easily find out in their forums, sure; but in all honesty, the fanboy-mode drives me bonkers. Be it in Turm-Based incline games here or shit mmos in mmorpg.com.
Not to say you are exactly impartial yourself (who is), but you at least tend to acknowledge both sides of the spectrum
So assuming you can be bothered:

- has the Jesus lady really been kicked off the 'developing' team? If so, do any of the morons that accompanied her remain? If so, in which parts of the game are they involved in?

I only know a tidbit about that, and I don't remember Brad saying anything as to it being like what the gossip mentioned. Other than that, maybe go search the site, I think Brad or others might have commented on it some. Keep in mind, Brad and Gossip has a very long history and I was fooled at one time buying into the gossip. All I can say is, if someone makes a claim, make them prove it or tell them to bugger off.

- will Pantheon feature instanced zones, of whatever a size? Or will it be akin to Vanguard, with on the fly chunk loading?

They are going with zones, not chunks. The reason I think they said was that Unity doesn't support open world seamless loading like Vanguard did and they feel they can provide more of what they are after with zone based content. Brad did say that the game won't feel like you are zoning constantly (like EQ2 on release) and that there will be plenty of content and things between zones to keep immersion. I would strongly advise you head over to the site and just browse through all the forums. You won't be able to post, but you will get a lot of your questions answered as to what they are doing as well as what they "might" lean to when you read them discussing with people in the forums. Also, check out the pod-casts, lots of the questions you may have are discussed in those. The game has really picked up development pace since the start of this year.

- with as much objectivity as you can possibly master (am really not the target audience for this anyway; you won't be sending a fan away) could you give me your opinion in regards to current donation rewards? ie, ingame imbalancing? Subjective? Fluff only?

Well, they at one point had a store. It allowed people to buy into the game and gain some items. It was pretty... well.. PTW crap to be honest and it really gave me a sour taste in my mouth when I saw that. I was about ready to write the game off myself. They changed though, removed the store, explained and reconciled to people who had already spent (saying the items would be toned down greatly, no in game advantage) and said in the future the store items would be just T-shirts and other stuff. Also, I think that you can sub to them and all your money goes to the subscription of the game in the future? (don't quote me on that, I think it can be looked up there).

That is about what I know, double check there to be sure though. I don't sub, I am cynic and while I believe they may succeed in the project, I just can't bring myself to spend on stuff like this. So, I watch, I read, I BS here about things and pass it on. That is about it though.

 

[Aenra]

Thanks man

The reason i asked about the cat Jesus lady is my reading of her axing the evil deities, on top of enforcing other ..creative.. reinterpretations she has been credited for. Have read multiple non-Pantheon affiliated posts stating they've kicked her out since, but nothing Brad-signed that i have seen. I suppose i will eventually find it within me to go for a forum search ^^

 

[Norfleet]

It is a shame really as the game had so much potential.

Still does, really. Not the potential it needs, but the one it deserves.

 

[Xenich]

Thanks man

The reason i asked about the cat Jesus lady is my reading of her axing the evil deities, on top of enforcing other ..creative.. reinterpretations she has been credited for. Have read multiple non-Pantheon affiliated posts stating they've kicked her out since, but nothing Brad-signed that i have seen. I suppose i will eventually find it within me to go for a forum search ^^

Yeah, well I am guilty of not really caring about that sort of drama to be honest. My issue is with mechanics mainly and them avoiding that pitfall of catering to mainstream thought and demand. This game can be very good, but it has to be done to Brads vision. I have seen so many games that had an initial vision that was trashed by mainstream because they made the mistake of thinking they could appeal to both. The result was always a game that nobody liked (hence the constant failing of MMOs in the market).

 

[Aenra]

who mentioned drama? You have a religious nut with the IQ of a squirrel in charge of what gets axed and what stays within development process;
what drama? This was serious. Or would have been for me if i was a follower. Can't quite picture me fitting that specific larger picture

 

[Xenich]

who mentioned drama? You have a religious nut with the IQ of a squirrel in charge of what gets axed and what stays within development process;
what drama? This was serious. Or would have been for me if i was a follower. Can't quite picture me fitting that specific larger picture

I have no idea if what you claim is true. Brad never admitted this was the issue that I could tell. Like I said previously, there is a TON of gossip in the past with Brad (he sold out Vanguard for quick cash, he ripped off the Pantheon investors, he is a drug addict who spent it all on dope and whores, etc... etc...). I have never seen a single shred of evidence to any of this. That is why I say "drama" because most of what you hear or think is likely to be bullshit.

 

[Xenich]

Kilsin, the community manager for Pantheon commented in a thread about advancement speed on MMORPG.com and I thought this was interesting as it will clear up some of the expectations from some concerning the direction this game is heading.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1006/view/forums/thread/430050/Advancement-speed.html

This is a good topic and I can tell you that our internal builds are very slow, things will change for balance reasons of course but right now it took me well over 3 weeks to get to level 3 with GM hacks and the team just increased the difficulty even more.

So I do not think you will have anything to worry about in this regard, we also want the game to be slow and more meaningful for progression and your characters journey, Brad is also very big on this too and wants to follow on from EQ.

As you can see, leveling speed is going to be slow. How slow? Well... certainly slower than anything of mainstream. My hopes is that it is similar to early EQ progression. I wouldn't even mind the 3 weeks to level 3 IF they are able to put in meaningful content, though Kilsin already said that this was just due to beta and leveling speed will be run through some balancing iterations.

They are very clear on what they are trying to achieve (and you can see this in their comments in the forums as well as the developer chats). I think there is some real advancements that can be made by taking older EQ/Vanguard design and expanding on the intentions they had.

This is why I am kind of an ass to people who bring in mainstream ideas and expect this game to somehow cater to mainstream. To expect that is to be completely ignorant of what they are trying to achieve.

 

[Aenra]

Spoiler

Assuming i got the jist of your motivations down, you want some advice?
You at times appear to have equated personal belief with Absolute Reason

I think anyone with patience to read at least some of your posts knows what you mean, and in what a way, that's not their issue, nor your way of expressing it.
THEIR issue is that you refuse to accept difference; instead you just go on and post, post, post. Long posts too. When you should just .. stop ^^

If and when you do stop, feel free to think your way is THE one and only way. Simple. Because when we do not stop, errors occur. Good measure is king

I admit that i will eventually give this game a try, assuming they manage to launch it. But, even if they get everything right, down to the tiniest morsel, my world has still moved on by 16 real time earth years. I would not, even if i could, dedicate the amount of consecutive hours online required to just.. play a game. People think it old school; i was there, thought it and still think of it as just bad design. Obviously wish them luck though

 

[Xenich]

I admit that i will eventually give this game a try, assuming they manage to launch it. But, even if they get everything right, down to the tiniest morsel, my world has still moved on by 16 real time earth years. I would not, even if i could, dedicate the amount of consecutive hours online required to just.. play a game. People think it old school; i was there, thought it and still think of it as just bad design. Obviously wish them luck though

Don't need to play like that. You don't have to "live" the game to enjoy it. I was already working in a full time profession when EQ came out. I worked a lot of hours, was on call, and married to boot. Many of my friends were not only that as well, but had children too. We had a guild of about 100 people. We raided when we could (which was only if we found a boss up when we all happened to have time). We spent most of our time grouping, helping other guilds, etc...

Most of the people I know who think EQ will take up all of their time where the guys I knew to be in high school and college during EQ when they had tons of time to throw at the game for raiding and the like. Just realize you don't have to play that way and the game can be a blast. You don't have to be raiding the top end content to enjoy EQ.

As for this:

Spoiler

Assuming i got the jist of your motivations down, you want some advice?
You at times appear to have equated personal belief with Absolute Reason

I think anyone with patience to read at least some of your posts knows what you mean, and in what a way, that's not their issue, nor your way of expressing it.
THEIR issue is that you refuse to accept difference; instead you just go on and post, post, post. Long posts too. When you should just .. stop ^^

If and when you do stop, feel free to think your way is THE one and only way. Simple. Because when we do not stop, errors occur. Good measure is king

I have no problems with people who say "I don't like that sort of play, I prefer this... but I understand this game is going to be old school, etc..."

I have problems with ass hats going on about how old school is antiquated, how I need to accept "new school" thought as if I have never experienced it and haven't heard their arguments a million times over along the years.

I know the "new school" thought, I have played game after game and watched their same arguments demand the same features that always ended up destroying the game (imo). Some of these guys who claim they played EQ, played in the later years after the game had changed or they were so young when they played the game at release that they really aren't a good witness to the mechanics.

Also, if you look at the posts here, my arguments Norfleet is because he is a crazy bastard that likes to antagonize me and Belowmecoldhands because he really is just a mainstreamer who claims to be old school but in every post argues for mainstream features. Read his comments about death penalties, travel, leveling speed, etc... The guy is a closet WoW supporter who thinks he is old school, but can't seem to come to terms with being a mainstreamer.

I mean, I have no problems with people liking mainstream features. I think there should be games of all types for people. The issue here is that people like him come into a forum like this for a game that has specifically stated its goals to be that of EQ/Vanguard old school mechanics and then precedes to argue why that is bad and hopes the game will be mainstream friendly. Seriously, I don't have tolerance for that sort of ignorant disregard. Like I said, I have seen many games that I loved and enjoyed in Alpha/Beta be destroyed because main streamers threw tantrums and demanded change claiming doom and gloom if the game didn't have mainstream features. Do you really think I should be polite to the same people who continue to be exactly the reason for each and every failure that these mainstream games have become? It gets stupid.

 

[Aenra]

i know
I am just not sure if everyone does, or is willing to bother long enough to do so.

As far as RotF is concerned..Your point is not something i have failed to consider, it is just that as always, theory ends when practice commences. Things (sadly) have changed. I am not expecting older players like me to pop in unless they (or the majority thereof) already are prepared to put down some serious time. As in per day. Overall, sure, same boat. But it's a different thing being the minority in group-forced games. Social circles move on to higher content, you get the finger, unless you've managed to hit the exceptions.
We'll see i guess.

 

[Xenich]

i know
I am just not sure if everyone does, or is willing to bother long enough to do so.

Well, honestly, those types are irrelevant to me. If someone can't be bothered to honestly see the argument (ie they are too busy trying to win rather than understand), well... no real point to be concerned about them.

As far as RotF is concerned..Your point is not something i have failed to consider, it is just that as always, theory ends when practice commences. Things (sadly) have changed. I am not expecting older players like me to pop in unless they (or the majority thereof) already are prepared to put down some serious time. As in per day. Overall, sure, same boat. But it's a different thing being the minority in group-forced games. Social circles move on to higher content, you get the finger, unless you've managed to hit the exceptions.
We'll see i guess.

Time will tell, this is for sure. I don't want to play the rat race game again. Heck, I was one of those guys who paid 40 bucks a month in early EQ to play on Storm hammer because I worked too much to be able to play the "raid boss competition" game. I mean, who has time to rush off to a boss fight on a moments notice? All the guys I knew that could do that were jobless, living at home, in college or high school (or in the rare case a lazy network/system admin who played at work). The guys like me who had jobs and lives could only give a few hours each night during the week and maybe a solid chunk on a weekend day if we scheduled it with family. We were casual, not these jokers who play an hour or two per week, that isn't casual, that's... "occasional".

It all comes down to if someone is a gamer or just a guy wanting to be entertained. See, I have always been a "gamer". I have played them since a kid both pen and paper on up the digital evolution of systems. I enjoy "gaming", not simply being "entertained", so I put aside time for my hobby. I mean, it is no different than those who put aside time to practice each night during softball season and play their games on the weekends. If if it important to someone, they will make time for it. That was what gaming was to PC gamers before the mainstream took over and turned it into a passing entertainment. Those who want a "passing entertainment" need to be honest with themselves and go play the games that attend to it rather than expecting every game be the same for them.

 

[Norfleet]

Pssh, casual. You have a family and kids, and yet you can't figure out how to actually use them to get in more gaming time. A mere solid chunk? You've got an entire family, set up some rotating shifts to keep that post manned.

 

[Xenich]

Pssh, casual. You have a family and kids, and yet you can't figure out how to actually use them to get in more gaming time. A mere solid chunk? You've got an entire family, set up some rotating shifts to keep that post manned.

Yeah, that would go over well. I can see the future after such... its coming in clear... I see... wait a second its foggy, but clearing up... I see living in an apartment alone with a large alimony/child support bill each month.

 

[Norfleet]

That's what happens when you pick the wrong kind of wife. I actually get to DO this, because I have STANDARDS when it comes to picking an appropriate mate.

 

[Xenich]

That's what happens when you pick the wrong kind of wife. I actually get to DO this, because I have STANDARDS when it comes to picking an appropriate mate.

Well, not everyone finds mail order appealing. /shrug

 

[Norfleet]

Hah, mail order would never have worked. You had to be there. We are, in the words of others who have met us, "horrible people who deserve each other".

And that's what a good match is about: Preferring your mate BECAUSE OF the horrible things others would deem drawbacks. Because, as you've probably noticed by now, I'm a negatively-oriented person (so is she, really). We look for flaws in things. Occasionally, some of those are what we'd consider good bad bugs, and that's the basis of our relationship.

 

[Xenich]

I was reading through MMORPGs Pantheon forum and I saw a guy be admonished by another for mentioning a barter system as a solution to the removing gold from a system. The guy said it was a silly idea because people would be standing around in the AH all day trying to find a barter.

Then I got to thinking about my mention of having a separate currency for game vendors that is not trade able to other players. That currency would be specifically for game system expenses. AND...

There would be a barter system, no currency would be used to buy and sell items between players. Players would trade items only.

How? well.... You have a standard AH where people can put up the item they are going to sell. When they do, they will have an interface that provides the means to clarify what they are looking for in return. Maybe a list of item grade, feature, tier, type, etc... could be checked to define the realm of what the person would accept in trade. Also maybe a little description to explain anything further (you could even allow a search for actual in game items to select several as what you would accept, but this might have some other problems with such an ability). Then, the players browse through a nice search engine that allows them to also search in detail for the various types of items they are looking for and under the conditions of an item they might have. For instance, I have a shield of something I wish to sell, so I go to the AH, put my conditions up (1h sword with fire effect, str, delay in this range, etc...) and the AH provides me with a list of (rough) matches to my sale. If there are none immediately that show up or maybe not "exactly" what I am looking form I hit post without trade and I wait.

After a time, people add new items that match my criteria and as they do, they go into a list for me to review. This list will have two categories. Trades that match or are close to my conditions (and I theirs), but not acknowledged and those that a player has acknowledged my barter and proposed a completion of trade.

I think this would be kind of a neat system. Certainly it would eliminate the problem with money stock piling and massive inflation. There are some trade offs, but I personally like this way better. For instance, you will still have the trader who stock piles and works to amass a collection of valuables, but... since he gains NO money from this, the items are only useful ultimately as bargain chips for eventually gear he will use (or give away, or hold for future leverage). Not only that, but a common element of play in RPG games is "bag space", so it has a natural limiter and progression system to it.


The nice thing is that the success of a barterer won't allow them to overpower currency system of the game. The developers will have a lot more control on such and because plat sellers will have no use for farming plat over and over, there is no market to imbalance the game system currency. This doesn't stop the practice of RMT, it will just move to people buying items with real money, but I think the effect on the monetary system will be less harmful that it usually is with currency systems.

As for Negatives, this one I am unsure. I am a bit clouded by my idea at the moment and not able to clearly look at the full spectrum of its implication. So, if some of you see something, have at it, though please... separate subjective arguments of taste from objective ones in possible unexpected abuse/flaws of this system.



What I like about it is that it is clean. The currency system is held strictly to game play acquisition and since it can not be traded, the chances of group brute force acquisition of income common of gold sellers is rendered inert. Only a single player would be able to grind to any extent, leaving people like Norfleet to be a single power in its accrual and only he benefiting from its expenditure. The barter system has no way to effect the currency system.

 

[Norfleet]

Wouldn't work. One of three things is true: Either "gold cannot buy anything of value, in which case it's worthless (this is common in many games), whether or not it can be traded to players (if it's worthless, nobody will even really WANT it); or it can be be vendored for something that is tradeable and of value, in which case this becomes your target item; or, finally, that it can be used to purchase something of use to you, but that item cannot be traded, in which case you need only a finite number of those items (and thus gold is worthless). If there are additionally no tradeable items that players value, your game has no economy and you're basically playing a single-player game which just happens to occasionally contain random people in it posing as loud, offensive NPCs.

A failure to create an actual player-to-player currency that isn't horribly debased will just bring us to Diablo 2's economy: Gold existed and could be traded between players, but it was easy to acquire a large quantity of it, and nothing of value could be purchased in-game with it, so the currency was too debased and everyone traded in SoJs or perfect gems. And don't kid yourself that people weren't farming THOSE, either. People worked out exactly where they should be grinding to maximize the drops of that. A game with no auction house and no player trading currency still developed its own currency, farmers, and trading sites. The human is an economic animal.

 

[Xenich]

Wouldn't work. One of three things is true: Either "gold cannot buy anything of value, in which case it's worthless (this is common in many games), whether or not it can be traded to players (if it's worthless, nobody will even really WANT it); or it can be be vendored for something that is tradeable and of value, in which case this becomes your target item; or, finally, that it can be used to purchase something of use to you, but that item cannot be traded, in which case you need only a finite number of those items (and thus gold is worthless). If there are additionally no tradeable items that players value, your game has no economy and you're basically playing a single-player game which just happens to occasionally contain random people in it posing as loud, offensive NPCs.

A failure to create an actual player-to-player currency that isn't horribly debased will just bring us to Diablo 2's economy: Gold existed and could be traded between players, but it was easy to acquire a large quantity of it, and nothing of value could be purchased in-game with it, so the currency was too debased and everyone traded in SoJs or perfect gems. And don't kid yourself that people weren't farming THOSE, either. People worked out exactly where they should be grinding to maximize the drops of that. A game with no auction house and no player trading currency still developed its own currency, farmers, and trading sites. The human is an economic animal.

I am not seeing your point here. Currency buys vendor items. In EQ, they had potions that were very expensive, but useful in some sitations. There were casting components for spells casters used which were pricey. People had to buy food and water all the time, there were ranged weapon consumables, crafting components, buying spells, armor/weapons, skill training, etc... So, money had a purpose and it was pretty sparse so you had to pay attention to it or you would run out (it was not uncommon to have to make a couple trips before you could afford all of your spells at that level). It isn't like games today where the vendors are just a place where people unload all of their garbage. You actually bought useful things off them and they were a functional part of the game. So money would be used for playing the game and controlled by that development, not influenced by player gimmicks and abuses that player trade often produces. It means a player wouldn't be able to sit on his ass in the AH and get rich never having to put any real play into the game to be able to afford all those things I mentioned. They would actually have to go out and "play" the game. /gasp

The other portion is the barter system. The gear is trad able, so you can do what you will, but since there is no money system to exchange, people would simply trade gear for gear they are looking for. By the way, on TEST EQ, we have over 800 people playing and it was a barter system. We didn't trade in plat, nobody farmed it to care about amassing it. So the system works and worked fine for 2-3 years before I left it after the wipe and the production servers is where I saw all the extensive currency trade.

The thing is, EQ had a terrible interface for bartering, imagine a system as I mentioned. It would work fine if it was practically implemented.

edit:
One point about vendors that I think is important here is that in EQ, not only were there many things that bought off the vendors as I described, but most everything that a player picked up off killing mobs and the like could be sold to the vendor AND those items could be purchased by other players. Most things in EQ had use (there were very few "trash" items) be it for quests, crafting, spell use, etc... The beauty of such a system is that it allowed the developers to set pricing controls.

This way people either use the barter system to trade for something (or some other game mechanics, I think brad talked about using old gear to sacrifice for buffs ala EQ2, or crafting, etc...) or you sell it to a vendor and someone ends up buying it that way.

Obviously there are a lot of things I am not considering as negative or even beneficial, but it is an idea that has not been done in MMOs (well bartering only in early EQ) and would be interesting to see how it works. I wonder... Maybe an EQ emulator server is in order with some modifications to such a system. My programming skills are extremely rusty, but I might be able to muddle through to get some sort of system working. The vendor system is already completely implemented in EQ, the barter system would be a bit difficult I think though... Maybe not... EQ does have a pretty extensive broker system, it might be able to adapt to my thoughts.

 

[Norfleet]

I am not seeing your point here. Currency buys vendor items. In EQ, they had potions that were very expensive, but useful in some sitations.

Yeah, I'm familiar with stuff like that. "Useful in some situations" generally meaning "PvP Situations".

There were casting components for spells casters used which were pricey. People had to buy food and water all the time, there were ranged weapon consumables, crafting components, buying spells, armor/weapons, skill training, etc... So, money had a purpose and it was pretty sparse so you had to pay attention to it or you would run out (it was not uncommon to have to make a couple trips before you could afford all of your spells at that level).

Those are what we'd call "baseline" expenses. If your gameplay is not producing enough funding to afford the costs of playing the game, then the game ends. Gameplay must necessarily produce enough to pay for these things, otherwise the character simply isn't viable: You've created a high-maintenance character build that can't be independently sustained, and if gold/supplies are furthermore not tradeable, this character isn't viable. Otherwise you're looking at a "warship" character that requires subsidies from a paying taxbase to keep afloat.

It isn't like games today where the vendors are just a place where people unload all of their garbage. You actually bought useful things off them and they were a functional part of the game.

I recall this concept dying around the time impactful PvP died. I never use high-value consumables in PvE. What would be the point? I, like many other players, inevitably finished (single-player) RPGs with a sackload of these consumables, always saved for a better moment, the logic being that the game cannot have been designed to make these absolutely required, or people who didn't have them would be completely screwed, therefore, I don't need them either, and they are better off saved for a better occasion. Being Online doesn't change that.

So money would be used for playing the game and controlled by that development, not influenced by player gimmicks and abuses that player trade often produces.

Player-gimmicks and trade is often the only remaining form of PvP left in a modern game, though! To play the auction house is to pit your wits against your fellow man. Without that, and without a meaningful system of murdering them, what else is there? You may as well be playing single player, it would lag less!

The other portion is the barter system. The gear is trad able, so you can do what you will, but since there is no money system to exchange, people would simply trade gear for gear they are looking for. By the way, on TEST EQ, we have over 800 people playing and it was a barter system. We didn't trade in plat, nobody farmed it to care about amassing it. So the system works and worked fine for 2-3 years before I left it after the wipe and the production servers is where I saw all the extensive currency trade.

Test server economies are never really functional, though. I've been on test servers. Often, high-value items are simply GIVEN away on request, while low value ones are just listed for random, arbitrary prices on the Auction House.

The beauty of such a system is that it allowed the developers to set pricing controls.

Yeah, here's the thing: I don't see that as a beauty, I see that as a negative. I like capitalism. I like supply and demand. I like the free market. From a development standpoint, I have often thought that systems would have worked a lot better and more smoothly if tenets of the free market were applied there. You see this all the time: Some content has a good reward/effort ratio...other content is utterly ignored because they are perceived as having a poor reward for effort. This is because their rewards are set by fiat. If those rewards were subject to competition, a natural balance would be achieved.