KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

[Xenich]

Endurance fights are a completely different ballgame.

Classic EQ had some fun ones but nothing like pandemonium warden in ffxi. Think the first kill in the game took like 18 hours straight. Had to get guild shift rotation going lol.

Games don't really aim for the obscenely challenging any more but I'd prefer my endurance fights to be no longer than 4 to 6 hours I guess. Though I question if I'd want to commit that much effort to a game these days.

Oh, I am certainly not hoping to go back to those EXTREMELY long fights of old, I would prefer them to shorten just a bit these days (raid fights that is, mob HP in EQ would be just fine imo), but to be every bit of an endurance fight.

EQ's issue wasn't the mob HP so much as it was the player's HP regen. When I couldn't get a group as a warrior, soloing was a slow affair. Kill a mob, bind wounds to 50%, then sit for 3-5 minutes and do it again, X250 for the next level.

Yep, I know the feeling, I couldn't solo after level 36 as a monk until I was able to get high end raid gear and even then it was only light blues. We weren't solo friendly classes though, so it was to be expected. I would just throw a group together and off I went. Same was with the warriors, you just pulled a group together and that solved the soloing issue. Those who insisted on soloing played more solo friendly classes (ie Necros, Wizards, Druids, etc....). They didn't design the game for soloing though, it just turned out that some classes with clever tactics could do soloing. For instance, the only reason I was able to solo at all past 30 was because I figured out how to fear kite as a monk using Instill Doubt. It was rough, but I was able to do it near split paw.

The nice thing is that they are continuing this design focus with Pantheon. The classes won't be balanced for soloing, but... may be able to solo at different times through different applications of skills, though some classes may not be able to solo much at all like it was in EQ. I think that system along with many things is what created the community of EQ. People had to rely on others. Reputation mattered as a matter of survival (unless you wanted to play a necro solo all the time).

 

[Quigs]

Yeah, intelligence gates and interdependance were 2 hallmark features of old EQ.

I don't think you can properly sift out idiots with intelligence gates anymore. There's a generation of mind addled children out there who know how to get around more by intuition than cognition. Further, while I'd love to make new friends online again, the thought of spamming a chat channel for hours to get a group frightens me. So my options are playing a game Solo against design and being punished for it, or convincing my current friends to get into an MMO. Neither is likely to happen, and that kind of bums me out.

 

[Xenich]

Yeah, intelligence gates and interdependance were 2 hallmark features of old EQ.

I don't think you can properly sift out idiots with intelligence gates anymore. There's a generation of mind addled children out there who know how to get around more by intuition than cognition. Further, while I'd love to make new friends online again, the thought of spamming a chat channel for hours to get a group frightens me. So my options are playing a game Solo against design and being punished for it, or convincing my current friends to get into an MMO. Neither is likely to happen, and that kind of bums me out.

That very point is what gates them though. In EQ, you had to acquire that knowledge, learn it over time, gain the experience of play through the various circumstances. The kids today are used to having their hand held through even the most mundane tasks that the idea of figuring something out is alien to them. That combined with a community of players who don't want to deal with some idiot wiping them 24/7 because they don't bother to learn anything IS what will end up gating those kids. That is how it was in EQ. The idiots couldn't survive in EQ until plat buying, PL services, and massive twinking allowed them to break through to the upper levels of the game in other classes. Thing is, they stood out like a sore thumb and they didn't get invited to many groups. It is why EQ continued on with its steady core of players and the mainstream ran off to WoW. EQ was just too demanding for such a type.

I don't mind the grouping aspect again, I mean... if it were a game like "WoW" or similar mainstream? Hell no, 10 mins with the average ADD idiot kid these days makes me want beat them to death. While there may be some as such to start with Pantheon, I think they will be gone shortly after release. They really don't have the patients for such a game, they will leave quickly if Brad doesn't cater to them (and if Brad is anything like he was during Verant where he polietly told player to fuck off if they didn't like the "Vision"), then there is hope they will stay gone. That means you will likely be playing with older players from the EQ days and it will be like night and day compared to the mainstream communities.

It wasn't that bad as you seem to suggest though. Don't you remember going out and soloing a bit at low level (everyone could up to a certain point), running into someone, grouping with them, then befriending them, catching them on the next day, etc... This snow balled to the point where you started having a list of friends you ran with constantly, which then turned into possibly a guild and that slowly grew, etc...

That is how I remember EQ. Not the depressing rat race of waiting for groups and being in LFG all the time. Hell, it didn't matter what class I played, I could have a group up and running in minutes. It was simply a matter of being willing to organize it. Once you got a reputation as a skilled player, usually the moment you logged on, people were sending you tells to come group. That is what I remember.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Something along the lines of clearing a Plane taking a few hours is fine in my book.

 

[Xenich]

Something along the lines of clearing a Plane taking a few hours is fine in my book.

Well, Plane Of Fear took around 5-6 hours if you were tuned and skilled (back in the release of them). Plane of Hate took 12 hours or so (usually broke into a couple of days). I could see maybe those being reduced to around 4 for PoF and 6-8 for Hate with the ability to come back (ie long respawn timers) and continue. Though I don't want to see something like Plane of Growth again. That was a full day to clear the trash, then 3-5 hour fight with Tunare. Those I can do without.

 

[Norfleet]

I don't think you can properly sift out idiots with intelligence gates anymore. There's a generation of mind addled children out there who know how to get around more by intuition than cognition.

I think what you mean is that they know how to get around more by Google. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Someone who is able and willing to Google is already a cut above the rest. It was quite nice how easily I managed to weed out spammers and many of the stupids without having to resort to those horrid, and generally non-operable captcha things, just by using entry questions that required either a certain knowledge of history and Internet lore, or Google-fu. In fact, clicking "Hint" took you to Google.

Further, while I'd love to make new friends online again, the thought of spamming a chat channel for hours to get a group frightens me.

Yeah, I'm a channel non-spammer also, so my approach to this is just to lurk until someone else does it. The other common method is that groups are organized from channels in the game that have nothing to do with forming groups specifically, when channel business is slow. The Trade Channel Team, etc.

So my options are playing a game Solo against design and being punished for it, or convincing my current friends to get into an MMO. Neither is likely to happen, and that kind of bums me out.

Yeah, tell me about it. Although I'm usually quite effective at playing solo or undermanned (2-man in a 5-man mission), more so than the developers would like, apparently. The trick here is the willingness to play multiple roles. Like, say, all of them. Be your own 5-man band. One of the better PvP teams I've heard of on WoW was actually one guy multiboxing the entire team.

It wasn't that bad as you seem to suggest though. Don't you remember going out and soloing a bit at low level (everyone could up to a certain point), running into someone, grouping with them, then befriending them, catching them on the next day, etc... This snow balled to the point where you started having a list of friends you ran with constantly, which then turned into possibly a guild and that slowly grew, etc...

Well, my guilds usually formed out of my tendency to kill people and give their stuff to newbs. More recently, they form out of people wanting to get onboard with my latest evil schemes, which they apparently assume I have from random conversations on unrelated channels. Sometimes I even actually have one.

Well, Plane Of Fear took around 5-6 hours if you were tuned and skilled (back in the release of them). Plane of Hate took 12 hours or so (usually broke into a couple of days). I could see maybe those being reduced to around 4 for PoF and 6-8 for Hate with the ability to come back (ie long respawn timers) and continue. Though I don't want to see something like Plane of Growth again. That was a full day to clear the trash, then 3-5 hour fight with Tunare. Those I can do without.

Heh, good times, back when people actually had real attention spans. I remember a game where space was actually BIG. I mean, REALLY BIG. we're talking 6-12 hour flights to reach the border of the other faction, maybe another 3 or 4 more to get within spitting distance of them and start getting people willing to sally forth to meet you. It was very lonely. Many died alone, with help nowhere near them. It's gotten so bad that the mere ability to concentrate on a simple task for 20 hours at a time is apparently enough to get you deemed a robot. Damn kids and their Generation ADHD.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Xenich, with all your talking about the "forced" grouping, you'd probably enjoy reading this:
http://www.gameskinny.com/9ltw7/mmos-are-not-games-where-mmo-s-go-wrong

Survival is the Key

Those early games, in all their brutal punishment and so-called 'abuse' of the players actually gave the players something that instinctively motivated them to form the foundation of a strong societal framework within the confines of the game world. In layman's terms: those rats handing you your ass just outside the Freeport city gates actually made you actively seek out other players for protection. You would form groups for adventuring because the world was just to tough without them, and the cost of death was too high.

Now, the problem I see is while I love and am friendly to the idea of a tough world to survive in, the group-games I've played thus far have all been hard to play one way or another. In EQ, groups demanded your time and it was hard to /afk or just leave. In DDO, groups were silent and zerging. In my other experiences, they almost all demand some time once you've joined the group. Soloing, by comparison, is sooooo much friendlier regarding time commitment. But of course I need that social element I can only find in grouping, so it has always been the case I sacrifice the convenience of soloing for the community of grouping.

Would love to see Pantheon figure out a way to address that. Perhaps a game already has. And before someone hollers "...World of Warcraft!", umm, just no; no. Don't. Even though I like to come here and interact with the forum, nooooo.

 

[Norfleet]

I agree with that article. In the last MMO I played, it was basically normal, expected, and even practically mandatory, to go from start to level cap without ever associating with a single other player. Not only was everything intended as solo content, in some cases being solo was enforced: Grouping was not permitted. I basically only spoke to the Codexians that I already knew about, and did not directly interact with them in any way until level cap. It was entirely common for people to go from level 0 to level 50 and even well into the endgame without ever saying a word to another player, and having no real idea how to play the game, because the game never challenged them to survive in any way.

Plus, it goes back to what I've been saying: Lower level characters have no use. Solo-ism means Chiefs don't need Indians. Even if you wanted to associate with other players, you really have no option to do so because you have no utility and cannot participate in any useful shared goals. The game actually tried to allow you to do this, but this really just made people madder: How DARE a low level character and his crappy low-tier ship be in MY mission?!? The game simply didn't make people at all levels feel wanted and useful.

 

[Xenich]

Xenich, with all your talking about the "forced" grouping, you'd probably enjoy reading this:
http://www.gameskinny.com/9ltw7/mmos-are-not-games-where-mmo-s-go-wrong

Survival is the Key

Those early games, in all their brutal punishment and so-called 'abuse' of the players actually gave the players something that instinctively motivated them to form the foundation of a strong societal framework within the confines of the game world. In layman's terms: those rats handing you your ass just outside the Freeport city gates actually made you actively seek out other players for protection. You would form groups for adventuring because the world was just to tough without them, and the cost of death was too high.

Now, the problem I see is while I love and am friendly to the idea of a tough world to survive in, the group-games I've played thus far have all been hard to play one way or another. In EQ, groups demanded your time and it was hard to /afk or just leave. In DDO, groups were silent and zerging. In my other experiences, they almost all demand some time once you've joined the group. Soloing, by comparison, is sooooo much friendlier regarding time commitment. But of course I need that social element I can only find in grouping, so it has always been the case I sacrifice the convenience of soloing for the community of grouping.

Would love to see Pantheon figure out a way to address that. Perhaps a game already has. And before someone hollers "...World of Warcraft!", umm, just no; no. Don't. Even though I like to come here and interact with the forum, nooooo.

So you want a group based game that has the convenience of soloing in terms of time flexibility and commitment? Yes, that would be a "WoW" like game, a problem I have had with games over the years. See, what WoW does to solve your problem is to make group content a very small time commitment. Dungeons are typically a very short run, content is designed for time commitment allowing the player to essentially begin and complete a task in minutes as opposed to more traditional group content which might take a minimum of an hour and more likely 2-3 for a healthy session of play. LoTRO transitioned traditional dungeons of time commitment to speed runs. This was a "WoW" like change to appeal to the "WoW" crowd who always complained about how they didn't have time to play games.

I think the problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. That you want to play a game with the attention and responsibility of soloing, but with other people. I don't think it is possible to any real practical extent. Maybe play FPS shooters? You can pop in and out as you like and get to play with a group of people to which nobody expects a time requirement for you and the "drop in/out" style of play works perfectly. Some of those shooters have light RPG systems as well, so you can still "develop" you character for that feel and have all that you enjoy in terms of play style.

Maybe soloing while chatting is a good balance to things for you? The point is, I think what you want would be a detriment to the style of play EQ was and what Pantheon is trying to achieve. Having your cake and eat it too isn't something I think that is feasible here, not in the form that you want it.

 

[Xenich]

So, I was thinking about the subtlety of play, as it concerns maps while I was playing the SOD (EQ clone). I was out hunting crap, I had a serpent sight spell cast on me (allows me to see in the dark) and as I was fighting (in the dark), the spell wore off. The spell was cast on me by a shaman and wasn't present with me when it wore off. So here I am, in the middle of a forest, blind as all can be. I mean, dark.. I can't see shit! (one of the trade offs for this race). I got rid of my torch (didn't think I would need it with spell help) so it was pitch black, no light source, no way to see where I should go to get back to somewhere I could gain light.

NO PROBLEMO. I pull out my MAGIC MAP (later EQ added maps, and this clone had that) and even though I can't see crap in front of me, apparently I can use the map and see as I run through the zone. So, I circumvented a game play element with the map. Otherwise, my lack of planning (ie not having a torch or light stone, etc... on me) would have rendered me likely dead as I attempted to run back to safety OR sat on my ass for an hour or so waiting for dawn to come.

That folks... is GAME PLAY. That is what we call "taking things for granted" and it is the aspect of design to which EQ sets itself aside from all the games today (not today's EQ, its a fucktard theme park these days), but as it was designed initially. You see, the simplest of things created need, havoc, regret, challenge.

 

[Norfleet]

I've run into a situation like that, only because the game didn't have a map, I simply wore night-vision goggles in real life, that solved the problem.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

So, I was thinking about the subtlety of play, as it concerns maps while I was playing the SOD (EQ clone). I was out hunting crap, I had a serpent sight spell cast on me (allows me to see in the dark) and as I was fighting (in the dark), the spell wore off. The spell was cast on me by a shaman and wasn't present with me when it wore off. So here I am, in the middle of a forest, blind as all can be. I mean, dark.. I can't see shit! (one of the trade offs for this race). I got rid of my torch (didn't think I would need it with spell help) so it was pitch black, no light source, no way to see where I should go to get back to somewhere I could gain light.

NO PROBLEMO. I pull out my MAGIC MAP (later EQ added maps, and this clone had that) and even though I can't see crap in front of me, apparently I can use the map and see as I run through the zone. So, I circumvented a game play element with the map. Otherwise, my lack of planning (ie not having a torch or light stone, etc... on me) would have rendered me likely dead as I attempted to run back to safety OR sat on my ass for an hour or so waiting for dawn to come.

That folks... is GAME PLAY. That is what we call "taking things for granted" and it is the aspect of design to which EQ sets itself aside from all the games today (not today's EQ, its a fucktard theme park these days), but as it was designed initially. You see, the simplest of things created need, havoc, regret, challenge.

Wurm Online has day and night. YOu should check it out, given all the things you say you like (although I wonder). Each cycle lasts something like 3 hours, so if it's dark it stays that way for over an hour. Now when you have to move around a lot outside and don't have the luxury of things being arranged beforehand, the night can make it very hard to play. If you're new and don't have a lantern and you need to be moving around outside, you're almost forced into either going logging off for a while or - what many players do if they're in this situation - you dial up your monitor's gamma settings. While this doesn't remove all of the difficulties with seeing things, it makes it markedly easier to move around. I'll admit I did this for a while, but I still spent a lot of time without. I haven't done that in a long time, though. And recently I made my first lantern. I also keep a practice of making burn piles to light up the area around my house(s).

So long story short, I wouldn't want day/night removed because it does make hte world more immersive and does give the world some extra dimension, but night can cause a lot of problems if a player doesn't have options. It can make the game, well, unplayable. BUT it's not often, and by and large, this, along with many other features, makes it the most imerisve thing I've ever played.

And keep in mind I've played Wurm ONline since 2012. And it didn't have an in-game map until 2014. The map doesn't have GPS, so you cannot see where you're. So you DO have to look where you're going, even if you can see things clearly. You can use a compass or landmarks to orient n/s/e/w. I haven't used a compass in a long time. The gridliness are fine most of the time.

One thing about Wurm Online is you can spend a lot of your time "indoors". While you do sometimes need to travel or go "outside", it's not as frequent as it might be in some games. Perhaps this is why easy fast travel hasn't been implemented.

(indoors = fenced areas or on deeds or otherwise in a protected area)

I'll say Wurm Online is more old school than Pantheon will ever be. I'll still play Pantheon. In fact, I don't wnat Pantheon to be as old school. Why? Because only a small game with a small gaming audience can afford to do it. And also I think it's good for games to try different things. I think it's fortunate not all games are the same. When people talk about the "decline" it's a very opinionated statement and does a huge diisservice to the enormous diversity out there.

 

[Norfleet]

Now when you have to move around a lot outside and don't have the luxury of things being arranged beforehand, the night can make it very hard to play. If you're new and don't have a lantern and you need to be moving around outside, you're almost forced into either going logging off for a while or - what many players do if they're in this situation - you dial up your monitor's gamma settings.

Yup, Ghetto Night Vision Mode.

While this doesn't remove all of the difficulties with seeing things, it makes it markedly easier to move around. I'll admit I did this for a while, but I still spent a lot of time without. I haven't done that in a long time, though. And recently I made my first lantern. I also keep a practice of making burn piles to light up the area around my house(s).

Wouldn't this simply give the advantage to enemies? Light can be seen a long ways off, before the attacker is visible himself. You should stick with Ghetto Night Vision, because this gives you an advantage over those who don't. The only reason to actually use in-game light is because of grues. If you can't be eaten by a grue, there's no good reason to resort to using in-game lighting when you can use night-vision mode instead. If you can see them, but they can't see you, the tactical advantage is huge. That's why the evolution of eyes was such an arms race. In the words of Conan the Cnidarian, "To sting your enemies, detect the shadows that indicate they are fleeing before you, and sense the despair of their reproductive polyps."

 

[Xenich]

Dialing up your monitors gamma doesn't work with EQ.

 

[Xenich]

I'll say Wurm Online is more old school than Pantheon will ever be. I'll still play Pantheon. In fact, I don't wnat Pantheon to be as old school. Why? Because only a small game with a small gaming audience can afford to do it. And also I think it's good for games to try different things. I think it's fortunate not all games are the same. When people talk about the "decline" it's a very opinionated statement and does a huge diisservice to the enormous diversity out there.

Again, Pantheon is being made in the vein of EQ/Vanguard, in many ways a successor to those games seeking to achieve the elements of play that they contained. If you are wishing for something different, then you are in for disappointment. I have looked up wurm online, it is not what EQ/Vanguard was, it is merely a sandbox survival java based game. As I have argued previously, I don't want PvP in the game, Pantheon will not be PvP focused (AT ALL), WO is a PvP game of survival with PvE safe spots. If you think WO is up my alley, then you haven't been paying attention to my discussion.

As I said, what Pantheon will be is clearly identified by the Pantheon team. It has very distinct goals. If you do not agree with them, then don't follow the game. See, I don't argue after games I don't agree with. For instance, when I found out EQ Next was going to be utter mainstream shit, I stopped following it, I didn't care anymore. I did not frequent their forums and argue for traditional features because I wanted them to make it old school EQ because they made it clear they were not.

So, you saying "I don't want Pantheon to be as old school" is admitting that you don't want Pantheon to be the game that Brad and his team have stated. You aren't interested in such a game, you are a new school type (it is extremely obvious as every suggestion you seem to make is mainstream/new school thought). You try to tell me that I should play some piece of shit java survival/minecraft game because it would better fit what I want while opposing the very features stated by the developers of Pantheon as being the core elements of what they want to achieve.

Pantheon is NOT what you want. Seriously, listening to your arguments, they would have to COMPLETELY change the game to fit your ideal game. For me, the game is right on track to be what I want it to be (old school EQ/Vanguard successor with some modern tech/features).


Here is a statement in one discussion thread about "solo play" to which the community manager tried to explain to someone who was arguing for solo mechanics and obviously didn't understand what this game was trying to achieve:

We have now explained this in the Developer Round Table Podcast, and while we understand that everyone has a different view on solo gameplay, what this should be and how it should be implemented, we will be following a similar path to EQ and VG as I have already explained in a previous post.

Pantheon is being created with group gameplay in mind but solo gameplay will not be prohibited, players will be able to solo some content although it will be difficult and there will not be specific content created for solo grinding.

FF14: RR is not a game we are basing any of these mechanics on even though it may share some similarities. Pantheon is being created as a spiritual successor to EQ/VG but with some modern tweaks to be able to call itself a standalone game/IP.

I just want to remind everyone that these are developer forums, not fan forums and while discussion and feedback is very important to us, circular arguments over opinions - when the topic has already been addressed - are not helpful at all, I ask that you please stop and direct your attention to the Developer Round Table and other topics for now.

So, again... what you "hope" for is not what this game is, at all, period. Can you accept that or do you have to be like the mainstream narcissist who swarms a new game throwing tantrums and constantly wasting developers time by demanding/requesting features that have already been stated as contrary to the games focus?

So maybe you should go find another game that fits your "new school" ideals rather than trying to completely change a game that is not? It seems EQ Next may be right up your alley?

 

[Norfleet]

As I said, what Pantheon will be is clearly identified by the Pantheon team. It has very distinct goals. If you do not agree with them, then don't follow the game. See, I don't argue after games I don't agree with. For instance, when I found out EQ Next was going to be utter mainstream shit, I stopped following it, I didn't care anymore. I did not frequent their forums and argue for traditional features because I wanted them to make it old school EQ because they made it clear they were not.

I wasn't aware we WERE frequenting their forums. I thought we were frequenting our forums and discussing various pieces of vaporware and game design. There isn't actually any such game as "Pantheon", seeing as they have yet to bother actually making it. Considering we are arguing about things, often only tangentially related, nowhere near their forums, the chances that any of this will be heard is pretty much none. We certainly aren't having these debates because we expect to somehow influence their development. In my experience, if you expect to get developers to actually do anything you say, you pretty much have to hold a gun to their heads.

 

[Xenich]

I wasn't aware we WERE frequenting their forums. I thought we were frequenting our forums and discussing various pieces of vaporware and game design. There isn't actually any such game as "Pantheon", seeing as they have yet to bother actually making it. Considering we are arguing about things, often only tangentially related, nowhere near their forums, the chances that any of this will be heard is pretty much none. We certainly aren't having these debates because we expect to somehow influence their development. In my experience, if you expect to get developers to actually do anything you say, you pretty much have to hold a gun to their heads.

Game is as much vaporware as any game that is yet to be released. So I don't see your point there. This game is beyond the simple concept stage (fully functional client/server system with several functioning zones as well as class/combat mechanics). That doesn't guarantee it being released, but as I said.. if you are going to claim that, well.. so is any game in development.

I am not worrying about him swaying anything here. In fact, his type have been shot down a few times already in the forums over there.

My problem is purely a principal one. belowmecoldhands is a mainstream gamer who thinks he understands old school gaming. That is why he uses relativistic arguments concerning the concept so that his opinions can seem as if they are valid (ie "The decline is subjective and purely opinionated"). This is done so he doesn't stand out like a sore thumb when these topics are discussed. Every topic in this thread he has discussed has been mainstream angled. He talks about travel and its the same mainstream argument about time, fun, etc... He talks about grouping, and it is the same mainstream argument about soloing. He talks about anything really and it is the same "mainstream" angled argument. He is a mainstream gamer, pure and simple, he isn't fooling anyone.

What I don't understand is why the fuck he is even here in this thread? I mean, he has to understand that his mainstream fucking thinking is exactly what people are tired of, the entire point of this game being made? Also, how fucking stupid do you have to be to "hope for a non-old school game" from a game designer who has specifically stated they are making an old school game? Seriously? Is he an idiot or is it that he is too fucking lazy to even inform himself on the topic?

You I know are fucking trolling half the time (you go in and out of such at a whim), still a fucking idiot, but I can deal with your stupidity. Him? I don't like his type at all as I have seen tools like him walk into MMO after MMO waving around their mainsteam arguments like a clueless fucking neckbeard.

edit:

Oh, and what I meant about "their forums" was forums concerning the game (ie anywhere there is a thread specific to the game). What is the point? I only argued in the WoW forum when I was actually giving the game another try. Other than that, once I realized it was still a pathetic game for fucking mainstream idiots, I don't bother with it, much like STO, Neverwinter, EQ Next, etc... I am not interested, I do not care about them, I do not "hope" for anything from them. They are all counter to what I want.

so, why be here if everything the game is designed to be and the supporters are all expecting it to be unless you are just trolling like fucktard (aka you). Is that what he is doing? If so, well... that changes things and I can treat him like the fucktard he is. /shrug

 

[Drakron]

Oh I get it ... you want an other WildStar because it worked so great didnt it?

P.S:
Your Federa ... its showing.

 

[Norfleet]

Game is as much vaporware as any game that is yet to be released. So I don't see your point there. This game is beyond the simple concept stage (fully functional client/server system with several functioning zones as well as class/combat mechanics).

And yet games which have claimed this have ultimately failed to actually be made. So yeah, vaporware.

That doesn't guarantee it being released, but as I said.. if you are going to claim that, well.. so is any game in development.

Pretty much. All vaporware. Over the years I've tried to define a point at which a game stops being vaporware and actually is guaranteed to appear, but so far, everything short of release has been falsified.

You I know are fucking trolling half the time (you go in and out of such at a whim), still a fucking idiot, but I can deal with your stupidity. Him? I don't like his type at all as I have seen tools like him walk into MMO after MMO waving around their mainsteam arguments like a clueless fucking neckbeard.

I'm not trolling, I'm just insane. You ask Vaarna, he's been with me before, he'll tell you I'm nuts. Years of pulling 24/7 does that to a guy. But it WORKS. Ask him who built his starbase. This is a feat meant for a team of 100+. I did it alone. I might be a raving lunatic that only makes sense to you half the time, but I get results.

Oh, hey. Ahoy thar, Drakron.

 

[Xenich]

Game is as much vaporware as any game that is yet to be released. So I don't see your point there. This game is beyond the simple concept stage (fully functional client/server system with several functioning zones as well as class/combat mechanics).

And yet games which have claimed this have ultimately failed to actually be made. So yeah, vaporware.

And yet some have been made. So, as I said, all games are vaporware until released. /shrug

That doesn't guarantee it being released, but as I said.. if you are going to claim that, well.. so is any game in development.

Pretty much. All vaporware. Over the years I've tried to define a point at which a game stops being vaporware and actually is guaranteed to appear, but so far, everything short of release has been falsified.

Yep, everything is vaporware until released. How many times have we seen major games start by major studios and then.. poof, gone even when it was basically finished? Van Buren? Heck, Wiz 8 almost didn't get released, it was done, but due to the company problems it almost didn't get shipped. So, yes, vapor till it hits the shelves.

You I know are fucking trolling half the time (you go in and out of such at a whim), still a fucking idiot, but I can deal with your stupidity. Him? I don't like his type at all as I have seen tools like him walk into MMO after MMO waving around their mainsteam arguments like a clueless fucking neckbeard.

I'm not trolling, I'm just insane. You ask Vaarna, he's been with me before, he'll tell you I'm nuts. Years of pulling 24/7 does that to a guy. But it WORKS. Ask him who built his starbase. This is a feat meant for a team of 100+. I did it alone. I might be a raving lunatic that only makes sense to you half the time, but I get results.

Insanity, idiocy, whatever... call it a "natural trolling" as opposed to artificial means (ie you do it without even thinking).

Oh I get it ... you want an other WildStar because it worked so great didnt it?

P.S:
Your Federa ... its showing.

Wildstar is a mainstream game, built for mainstream gamers. If you think it achieved anything other than that, your "WoWtard" hat is showing.

This game isn't being marketed to mainstream, from the start it has been very clear. They aren't seeking massive subs, or to be the leader of the pack. They won't be seeking WoW players like you.

 

[Drakron]

your "WoWtard" hat is showing.

Too bad I dont play WoW ... that just showcases how insufferable you are ... and lazy too since a quick look on this very forums would show I play STO, sure its Stockholm syndrome at this point but WoW? I did played once before the first expansion that I dont even recall when that was just so I could see what was that MMO thing people were going on about.

You are saying mainstream like its a bad thing, let me put this way .. THIS IS BUSINESS, the only thing they are doing is roping idiots like you that somehow believe they are making a game for then personally before they run away with the money, its a business venture.

Of course its going to be a niche game but you are making this into your own personal tread, there are no safe zones on the codex and you are being a insufferable cunt about this, I would half believe you are a Blaine alt except even Blaine isnt as insufferable as you are because, and I know this is hypocritical of me, simply insulting people and claiming superiority ... not really addressing anything, just insults that clearly shows when you simply spewed out works thinking they are offensive.

Being a WoWtard would not be offensive to me even if I played WoW because Jesus Christ, I play STO of all things.

 

[Xenich]

your "WoWtard" hat is showing.

Too bad I dont play WoW ... that just showcases how insufferable you are ... and lazy too since a quick look on this very forums would show I play STO, sure its Stockholm syndrome at this point but WoW? I did played once before the first expansion that I dont even recall when that was just so I could see what was that MMO thing people were going on about.

You say that like STO is anything but a mainstream WOWtard like game?

You are saying mainstream like its a bad thing, let me put this way .. THIS IS BUSINESS, the only thing they are doing is roping idiots like you that somehow believe they are making a game for then personally before they run away with the money, its a business venture.

McDonalds is one of the largest food chains in existence. Let me guess, that means it is the best food? Oh, and I imagine Britney Spears and New Kids on the Block were amazing musicians!! You are a fucking WoWtard! /facepalm

Of course its going to be a niche game but you are making this into your own personal tread, there are no safe zones on the codex and you are being a insufferable cunt about this, I would half believe you are a Blaine alt except even Blaine isnt as insufferable as you are because, and I know this is hypocritical of me, simply insulting people and claiming superiority ... not really addressing anything, just insults that clearly shows when you simply spewed out works thinking they are offensive.

Boo hoo you twit. Now I know you are a WoWtard mainstreamer. You get your panties in a bunch when people talk bad about your stupid tastes. "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!!"

(btw, saying I didn't address anything? Learn to fucking read you moron. I answered to EVERY single point made here, so don't act like I am just insulting as a fallacious means of escaping an invalid point. I mean, seriously, piss off!)

Being a WoWtard would not be offensive to me even if I played WoW because Jesus Christ, I play STO of all things.

STO is a PTW gimmick of a game. I can accept it had some features that were interesting, but it was destroyed by its packaging and marketing. You don't mind though, its a BIZNESS!!! Without the creative minds of gaming past, your BIZNESS wouldn't exist. It is the BIZNESS that is riding fucking tools like you to the bank because they market to your popamole mentality. Now run off and buy your next ship in the STO store bitch, I hear they are having a sale and you don't want to miss out!!! /derp

 

[Norfleet]

You say that like STO is anything but a mainstream WOWtard like game?

No, that was pretty much his entire point.

STO is a PTW gimmick of a game. I can accept it had some features that were interesting, but it was destroyed by its packaging and marketing. You don't mind though, its a BIZNESS!!! Without the creative minds of gaming past, your BIZNESS wouldn't exist. It is the BIZNESS that is riding fucking tools like you to the bank because they market to your popamole mentality. Now run off and buy your next ship in the STO store bitch!

Ah, well, STO's an interesting kettle of fish. It's basically everything else I detest in a game, but it has that perfect storm of perversity to it. Pay to win? Bitch, please, I've only paid about -$2000 so far. That game has completely changed my view of MMOs. That's why I even bother to check out other MMOs, really. Even though they're probably going to be something I'll hate playing, I might still enjoy gaming it.

 

[Xenich]

STO is a PTW gimmick of a game. I can accept it had some features that were interesting, but it was destroyed by its packaging and marketing. You don't mind though, its a BIZNESS!!! Without the creative minds of gaming past, your BIZNESS wouldn't exist. It is the BIZNESS that is riding fucking tools like you to the bank because they market to your popamole mentality. Now run off and buy your next ship in the STO store bitch!

Ah, well, STO's an interesting kettle of fish. It's basically everything else I detest in a game, but it has that perfect storm of perversity to it. Pay to win? Bitch, please, I've only paid about -$2000 so far. That game has completely changed my view of MMOs.

Perfect World Entertainment. Need I say more? The be all, end all of PTW companies. Now I have a friend who plays STO, he did from the start (we both played on release) and I joined him a while back to try it again. The game is fucking popamole, no skill, retardedly easy PTW shit. Now, I can see how the space portion of the game is interesting (for a while) and the ship development is pretty deep, but the game is so incredibly easy, whats the point? Also, the ground game? Please kill me now! Completely pathetic. To each their own though, I hate them, I wouldn't piss on them to save them. I however don't go over there and whine about the game. In fact, I could give a flying fuck about it.

 

[Quigs]

Yeah, I bought the game too. Was hoping it'd be like SFB/SFC/FedCom buuuuuuuut it sucked, with a terrible tacked on away team mission thing on top of it. Bleh.