Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[jewboy]

The Vancian vs Mana vs Cooldown vs OtherSystems debate is hot again and Sawyer is posting. Get your lazy asses over there and post some well thought out arguments. Preferably something about how and why cooldowns suck. I'm still worried Sawyer is going to want cooldowns.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/376730408441642308

I think it's possible to set up "suites" of spells that the player can switch between with a lesser penalty/greater frequency than reload/rest. I.e. the system does not need to be strictly Vancian to allow for meaningful prep and consequences.

 

[tuluse]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/376730408441642308

I think it's possible to set up "suites" of spells that the player can switch between with a lesser penalty/greater frequency than reload/rest. I.e. the system does not need to be strictly Vancian to allow for meaningful prep and consequences.

This seems like a reasonable compromise.

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey will like this one http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60829-encouraging-euro-asian-interest/

I know some vocal opponents to European and Asian translations exist, but perhaps Obsidian should try to court European and Asian interest in this game. Japan and Korea could both be arenas for competition albeit their markets are focus to a different sort of CRPG. Also, Russia despite their present focus on the sacred might enjoy this game. Is there any way anyone might think of that would pull European, Japanese, and Korean audiences with more than just translation and localization? Translation and localization itself doesn't advertise the game. Any form of commercial?

Of course, I am aware that Korean and Japanese audiences might not appreciate this game, but there might be some audiences that like the game (consumer audiences for video games are remarkably varied in Asian markets). And if it's made clear that this game is intentionally retro, it would appeal to Asian fans who loved Baldur's Gate and similar games.

(Edit -- thankyou Diablo169) Russia and Poland and other recently capitalist nations might have idle and questioning youth who have money. Older folk might like these games too. Who are the wealthy in these recently freed nations and what do they want?

American parochialism at its finest

 

[Jarpie]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60823-drows-in-this-game/

Fucking drows...I Fucking hate dork elfs, even more than regular ones.

 

[Infinitron]

The Vancian vs Mana vs Cooldown vs OtherSystems debate is hot again and Sawyer is posting. Get your lazy asses over there and post some well thought out arguments. Preferably something about how and why cooldowns suck. I'm still worried Sawyer is going to want cooldowns.

Jewboy, if you'll look at Josh's Formspring, I've already discussed the matter with him (not cooldowns, though) http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/376730408441642308

 

[Murk]

Based on the recurrence of that prepared "suite" comment it would seem they have their magic system more or less in mind. Personally, I'm OK with skipping on the Vancian system, but I feel most people's complaints are... uhh misguided, I guess would be the word?

"You don't know what to expect, and thus you may pre-select bad spells" -- that's the whole point of adventuring right? The goal of a wizard (in contrast to a sorcerer) is that they have the versatility to be prepared for anything via a larger spell selection, and as such they shouldn't be wading into a dungeon with all of their 3rd level slots full of fireball. They should include utility spells and multiple energy type attack spells, as well ass support and crowd control spells. The whole point is to be prepared for a multitude of situations.

"I just rest after every battle" -- if you want the game system to stop you from using munchkin tactics, then ok -- just institute a very basic timer that doesn't allow you to rest immediately after resting. Divine Divinity did it, and it worked pretty well. There could be an in-game counter that doesn't let your characters rest unless they either take a heinous amount of damage and/or a certain amount of in-game hours have passed (I am assuming the game will have night/day cycles and so a timer will already be in place). Make resting in dungeons a no-go, it seems suicidal to go into a were-badger Warren and just think "whelp, we don't know what's past that corner to let's set up camp here for 8 hours". The IE style of "you have been beset by monsters" works fine too so long as there's a VERY HIGH RATE of that happening, but I'd also encourage things like the monsters not waking you up until its too late and you're already dead (coup de grace).

"Mana has more versatility" -- mana systems traditionally have far fewer spells because of the potential abuse they can give, especially if it turns into a potion-chugging fest. Can you imagine having every D&D spell and being able to cast any of them and slamming mana potions? Chain-binding meteor storm, abi-dalzim's, and friggin summon spells... blah. Now, if potions and other mana restoration is handled in a way that limits how FAST you can regenerate mana then ok. Something perhaps like the Witcher where mana potions just increased the regeneration rate and couldn't be stacked, so either you had to have the character build to speed it up even more or just wait it out for mana regen. I'd even be ok with something like Kult's HP system where quickly restoring HP led to a lower max hp (temporarily, until you rested) than waiting for it to go very low -- thus risking dying before you can heal.

...err I guess I should post this over there?

 

[Infinitron]

Based on the recurrence of that prepared "suite" comment it would seem they have their magic system more or less in mind. Personally, I'm OK with skipping on the Vancian system, but I feel most people's complaints are... uhh misguided, I guess would be the word?

"You don't know what to expect, and thus you may pre-select bad spells" -- that's the whole point of adventuring right? The goal of a wizard (in contrast to a sorcerer) is that they have the versatility to be prepared for anything via a larger spell selection, and as such they shouldn't be wading into a dungeon with all of their 3rd level slots full of fireball. They should include utility spells and multiple energy type attack spells, as well ass support and crowd control spells. The whole point is to be prepared for a multitude of situations.

"I just rest after every battle" -- if you want the game system to stop you from using munchkin tactics, then ok -- just institute a very basic timer that doesn't allow you to rest immediately after resting. Divine Divinity did it, and it worked pretty well. There could be an in-game counter that doesn't let your characters rest unless they either take a heinous amount of damage and/or a certain amount of in-game hours have passed (I am assuming the game will have night/day cycles and so a timer will already be in place). Make resting in dungeons a no-go, it seems suicidal to go into a were-badger Warren and just think "whelp, we don't know what's past that corner to let's set up camp here for 8 hours". The IE style of "you have been beset by monsters" works fine too so long as there's a VERY HIGH RATE of that happening, but I'd also encourage things like the monsters not waking you up until its too late and you're already dead (coup de grace).

"Mana has more versatility" -- mana systems traditionally have far fewer spells because of the potential abuse they can give, especially if it turns into a potion-chugging fest. Can you imagine having every D&D spell and being able to cast any of them and slamming mana potions? Chain-binding meteor storm, abi-dalzim's, and friggin summon spells... blah. Now, if potions and other mana restoration is handled in a way that limits how FAST you can regenerate mana then ok. Something perhaps like the Witcher where mana potions just increased the regeneration rate and couldn't be stacked, so either you had to have the character build to speed it up even more or just wait it out for mana regen. I'd even be ok with something like Kult's HP system where quickly restoring HP led to a lower max hp (temporarily, until you rested) than waiting for it to go very low -- thus risking dying before you can heal.

...err I guess I should post this over there?

Yes.

 

[Murk]

Word. That thread, and many other threads, are bad. Bad for this game, bad for that forum, and bad for the fans. The devs, if they should read them, are going to have to sift through dozens upon dozens upon dozens of absolutely stupid posts written by people who do not play games through the mindset of it "being a system" and so are requesting nearly impossible to implement things or are just flat out wrong in the things they want (wanting a feature that does not function the way they think it does).

I am sure Obsidian knows this, and so is taking things with a grain of salt from the majority of the people, but I fear that the overall negative consequences of the sea of shit will be worse than if the majority would just stop posting their stupid shit about customization or unnecessary graphics or the "I played BG 2 and I didn't like this" complaints.

Blah.

 

[Oesophagus]

The Vancian vs Mana vs Cooldown vs OtherSystems debate is hot again and Sawyer is posting. Get your lazy asses over there and post some well thought out arguments. Preferably something about how and why cooldowns suck. I'm still worried Sawyer is going to want cooldowns.

link?

 

[Infinitron]

The Vancian vs Mana vs Cooldown vs OtherSystems debate is hot again and Sawyer is posting. Get your lazy asses over there and post some well thought out arguments. Preferably something about how and why cooldowns suck. I'm still worried Sawyer is going to want cooldowns.

link?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60372-vancian-magic-system/

 

[Grimlorn]

I prefer the Knights of the Chalice way personally. I don't know if there is a specific name for it. It's where you have all the spells available to you in your spell book, but a limited number of charges for each level of spells you have.

 

[tuluse]

I prefer the Knights of the Chalice way personally. I don't know if there is a specific name for it. It's where you have all the spells available to you in your spell book, but a limited number of charges for each level of spells you have.

That's how sorcerers and bards work in DnD.

 

[Grimlorn]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/376730408441642308

I think it's possible to set up "suites" of spells that the player can switch between with a lesser penalty/greater frequency than reload/rest. I.e. the system does not need to be strictly Vancian to allow for meaningful prep and consequences.

I can't seem to picture this. Does he mean give you more than 1 slot for the spells you have memorized? So a Cleric could have healing slot of spells and then another slot dedicated to spells with buffs and debuffs?

If this is the case then why not just double the memorization slots in the first place? Why switch between different spell builds?

 

[The Great Deceiver]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/376730408441642308

I think it's possible to set up "suites" of spells that the player can switch between with a lesser penalty/greater frequency than reload/rest. I.e. the system does not need to be strictly Vancian to allow for meaningful prep and consequences.

I can't seem to picture this. Does he mean give you more than 1 slot for the spells you have memorized? So a Cleric could have healing slot of spells and then another slot dedicated to spells with buffs and debuffs?

If this is the case then why not just double the memorization slots in the first place? Why switch between different spell builds?

As I understand it, it'd be like having several decks of cards, figuratively speaking.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/376730408441642308

I think it's possible to set up "suites" of spells that the player can switch between with a lesser penalty/greater frequency than reload/rest. I.e. the system does not need to be strictly Vancian to allow for meaningful prep and consequences.

I can't seem to picture this. Does he mean give you more than 1 slot for the spells you have memorized? So a Cleric could have healing slot of spells and then another slot dedicated to spells with buffs and debuffs?

If this is the case then why not just double the memorization slots in the first place? Why switch between different spell builds?

Who knows? It's just an idea. It's open to countless interpretations. Try to ask Josh if you want to, but I doubt he'll answer.

 

[Grimlorn]

Well I'm playing through Icewind Dale right now. I don't agree with the whole resting thing being bad. I'm probably resting after every 3 to 4 battles, but it kind of adds a kind of depth. It makes you have to choose your spells wisely and try not to spend all of them on one battle. It also gives you the sense that the enemies you're fighting are tough because you have to rest frequently after a few battles.

Sawyer's comment about memorizing spells for upcoming battles and reloading makes sense, but I think the perfect solution to that is to use the system used in KotC and just have all the spells with a limited number of charges per level. That way you don't lose a battle because you didn't memorize a spell only useful in very rare, specific cases. And no having to reload, rememorize, rest to set up your casters spells for that.

 

[Infinitron]

Well I'm playing through Icewind Dale right now. I don't agree with the whole resting thing being bad. I'm probably resting after every 3 to 4 battles, but it kind of adds a kind of depth. It makes you have to choose your spells wisely and try not to spend all of them on one battle. It also gives you the sense that the enemies you're fighting are tough because you have to rest frequently after a few battles.

Sawyer's comment about memorizing spells for upcoming battles and reloading makes sense, but I think the perfect solution to that is to use the system used in KotC and just have all the spells with a limited number of charges per level. That way you don't lose a battle because you didn't memorize a spell only useful in very rare, specific cases. And no having to reload, rememorize, rest to set up your casters spells for that.

It is possible to combine that system with the kind of "suites" system that Josh is proposing. We don't want to lose the concept of spell preparation entirely, it's an integral part of the Infinity Engine games' magic systems.

 

[Grimlorn]

Well I'm playing through Icewind Dale right now. I don't agree with the whole resting thing being bad. I'm probably resting after every 3 to 4 battles, but it kind of adds a kind of depth. It makes you have to choose your spells wisely and try not to spend all of them on one battle. It also gives you the sense that the enemies you're fighting are tough because you have to rest frequently after a few battles.

Sawyer's comment about memorizing spells for upcoming battles and reloading makes sense, but I think the perfect solution to that is to use the system used in KotC and just have all the spells with a limited number of charges per level. That way you don't lose a battle because you didn't memorize a spell only useful in very rare, specific cases. And no having to reload, rememorize, rest to set up your casters spells for that.

It is possible to combine that system with the kind of "suites" system that Josh is proposing. We don't want to lose the concept of spell preparation entirely, it's an integral part of the Infinity Engine games' magic systems.

The thing is, I can't see a way to implement spell preparation without punishing the player for not having the right spells memorized for the right situations. Which means you'd go into an encounter, die, reload, change the spells you have memorized and rest and then face that encounter and beat it. I don't think this is optimal. It's terribly fun to be ambushed or come across some new type of mobs and overcome it on your first try through your ability to adapt and overcome the situation. Rather than the devs putting in an encounter you won't be prepared for thus die to.

If Sawyer's talking about a suite system, that would mean they would have to somehow set up your spells within each suite and give you a certain amount of charges which sounds about the same as the Sorcerer DnD system.

 

[Infinitron]

The thing is, I can't see a way to implement spell preparation without punishing the player for not having the right spells memorized for the right situations. Which means you'd go into an encounter, die, reload, change the spells you have memorized and rest and then face that encounter and beat it. I don't think this is optimal. It's terribly fun to be ambushed or come across some new type of mobs and overcome it on your first try through your ability to adapt and overcome the situation. Rather than the devs putting in an encounter you won't be prepared for thus die to.

It may be possible to change "suites" mid battle. Or at least switching them would be less of a hassle than selecting new spells one by one and resting.

 

[Grimlorn]

Also, they can make the game harder by giving the player more options. They can make it so you need to use those rare spells to overcome those rare mob type situations. Sawyer uses the example of using dimensional anchor on mobs that teleport. But when I was attacked by Phase Spiders, I was able to just auto attack them and kill them. They didn't do much damage and weren't very tough.

By giving the player the ability to have that spell regardless, they can make those spiders tough enough to take out a caster before I kill them if I don't use a Dimensional Anchor type spell.

 

[Jaesun]

You know, you could always discuss these ideas in that thread.

 

[Grimlorn]

And deny the Codex our presence and ideas? I think not.

 

[Dexter]

Just implement a tracking system that lets you ascertain what kind of enemies are in the area and how many there are with more or less information depending on the skill, problem solved. Kind of like HOMM/King's Bounty etc. where you could approximate what kind of army you'd fight from clicking on it and have the appropriate skills.

 

[villain of the story]

At any rate, it doesn't matter because the details of PE have already been decided. KOOL-downs with no rounds. Twitch fest shit. You're a moran if you go into this expecting tactical depth beyond the MMO crap.