Obsidian and inXile acquired by Microsoft

[TemplarGR]

The truth is that cRPG “experts” like Sawyer once enjoyed cRPGs, but now they are stuck doing these games and despise them, just as they despise their own audience. This is bad enough. If they behave like spokesman of the genre, you add insult to injury.

This is an illness that afflicts many former fans of crpgs. You see it even here, on the codex, many people just blindly worship the oldies and shout "decline" to anything new. While we do live in the age of decline in general, there are still good games to play today. It is just that they don't enjoy playing crpgs anymore, not really. So what they have are the nostalgia and memories of the games they used to play, in contrast to the new games that they attempt to get into today but are unable. They don't enjoy them anymore... Being an oldfag sucks.

I love C&C, but the moment to moment gameplay in this game is so terrible that I didn't finish the game. It could be a cool C&C game, but they ruined it.

This is one of the biggest truths in gaming. Yet it flies over the head of many crpg fans. Having quality C&C is great, but C&C by its own cannot sustain a game.

First of all you need to care for the setting and characters of the game. For example they could release the best C&C design ever made for a Barbie game, and i wouldn't play it, because i couldn't be bothered with Barbie's world.

Second, you need to enjoy playing the game. You only make choices for a tiny part of the playtime. If the rest of the game is trash and a slog, C&C won't save it. One of the reasons Mass Effect became such a massive hit, was because it had really fun and fluid gameplay. The C&C and story was just a bonus.

There is a reason supposed "masterpieces" like Planescape Torment never got many sales, even in the niche that actually plays CRPGs... The game was a slog. Many people would call it a visual novel rather than a crpg. They are exaggerating of course, but there is some validity to that claim. Yes PS:T had great story and C&C, but people want to play games... If they wanted to read a book, they would buy the PS:T novel...

 

[hexer]

How do you know he ignored it?

Bro.. hope you're not trolling me and are just blinded by your love for him..

He ignored it by not addressing any of the bigger PoE1 issues we identified there while developing game's sequel, Deadfire.
I guarantee you on my grandma's grave, he read that review while downing a bottle of whiskey at 2 AM.

I even pulled out his GDC Europe 2011 quote so you can better understand where he comes from:

Another problem is that "we listen to the vocal players, who in many cases are wrong-headed."

Do you understand now who he is as a person? Who he is as a developer?
No respect for people who are the source of his monthly income.
No respect for people who care enough to even waste their time and tell him where he made mistakes.

If this is not enough for you to accept the fact he ignores our criticism / free advice on purpose,
I suggest you start his Official Fan Club and name it "JE Sawyer Can Do No Wrong"

 

[Brancaleone]

I suggest you start his Official Fan Club and name it "JE Sawyer Can Do No Wrong"

I think there's a vacancy at president level since a certain fire godlike quit...

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

My beloved Megan Starks has written for more than two games. She designed content for Fallen Earth and Wildstar before coming to Obsidian. She’s bad at making companions, but other than that her stuff can be pretty good (she wrote the best part of Deadfire for fuck’s sake).

What parts did she write and which characters/companions?

In Deadfire she wrote Xoti, the most cringe inducing companion, but she also did the writing in Fort Deadlight and the Gullet, which were the game's two best areas.

In Tyranny she wrote Kills-in-Shadow (the worst written companion, although not as bad as the most egregious screenshots of the dialogue would have you believe), but she also wrote Bleden Mark, who was fucking great.

Here's a detailed list of what she did in Deadfire and a less detailed list of Tyranny: http://www.fictivate.com/game-design.html

Starks is fine as long as they don't let her touch the companions, which clearly requires a different skillset.

Who's angry?

hexer for one. Come on, people are always angry at Sawyer, going all the way back to his webmaster days. He rubs everybody the wrong way (and he's very thoughtless in the way he phrases things that could potentially sound incendiary). But if anger is too strong a word, there's certainly been some umbrage taking in the last few pages of this thread.

Sure, it's good that he's passionate. The reason people are harsher on him is the amount shit he talked about sacred cows (D&D, IE games), RPG traditions, other developers, and so on. I personally think that's fine. However, once you do that, you must accept the same amount of scrutiny. Most people here don't think he backed it up, so it's only natural that the backlash is relatively stronger.

He deserves the scrutiny. My gripe is with claims about his arrogance, which I think miss the mark. Much of his criticism of other developers seems either taken out of context or blown out of proportion. For example, his rejoinder in that ToEE thread:

The Troika guys made a very fun game and they did a great job modifying the Arcanum engine for 3.5 rules. For some reason, people keep losing sight of the fact that I was defending Troika's ability to gauge their own time and make a game superior to IWD. Yes, ToEE has bugs. IWD also had bugs. Some pretty obnoxious ones. And I think ToEE is more fun than IWD.

Even fifteen years ago people were slamming him over what were basically reading comprehension issues. Granted, he's bad at putting things diplomatically (in keeping with my diagnosis). If MCA were to criticize Baldur's Gate, he'd bend over backwards to include examples where he made similar mistakes in his own games. Sawyer's too matter of fact for that:

I'd like to know how you think I should have replied, if not with my honest opinion.

IMO, asperger's does a better job of explaining where Sawyer went wrong than arrogance does.

I'm also not sure it's fair to say that he didn't listen to the Codex when designing Deadfire. Darth Roxor certainly liked Deadfire more than POE. So either Sawyer took some elements of Roxor's critique seriously, or maybe he has a point when he says vocal fans don't really know what they want.

Edit: obviously he’s guilty of hubris, so maybe all of this is just splitting hairs.

 

[Brancaleone]

My gripe is with claims about his arrogance, which I think miss the mark.

I'd say most people who use the term arrogance in regards to him mean it as hubris.

 

[pomenitul]

Hans Asperger was an Austrian eugenicist. Josh Sawyer is a known Teutonic supremacist (cf. the Beiträge of the esteemed FreeKaner). Therefore Josh Sawyer has Asperger's. QED.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

90% of the time, when I read a new post on this forum it feels like a rehash of older posts. I think I might have brain damage. Please help.

No brain damage.
I'm afraid it is a psychological condition: You are a masochist. Like the rest of us.

*sends thesheeep to New Zealand* Now you know what being a masochist really means, bud.

I'd go there eventually, anyway.
Wanna see the nature and eat all the nommos! What? My life goal is "eat all the things".

A sheep willingly offering itself to New Zealand... Poos! Where are you? :D

we are very particular about our sheep

seeing as there are like 40 zillion of them we can be a little bit choosy when it comes to selecting a perfect mate

i dont want any old, daggy-arsed mutton, i demand quality

 

[pomenitul]

Odd that New South Wales should be in Australia rather than New Zealand.

 

[2house2fly]

Bro.. hope you're not trolling me and are just blinded by your love for him..

He ignored it by not addressing any of the bigger PoE1 issues we identified there while developing game's sequel, Deadfire.

There's a lot of issues there. What would you say are the top three things he was too arrogant to address?

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Sawyer obviously made a lot of mistakes. He was overconfident. But I can’t believe how many people are angry at him for doing what we do here every damn day. He has strong opinions about RPGs? The horror! He thought he was right about things that he turned out to be wrong about? Unforgivable! He disagrees with people who don’t share his design philosophy? The nerve!

That's not the same thing at all. There is a difference between having strong opinions about cRPGs because you are passionate about the subject, and being confident because you think that being a Obsidian's developer qualifies you to be special. The comparison is insulting to every poster here.

Wouldn’t it be worse if he didn’t have strong opinions on game design?

Wouldn't be better if played W8 instead of Hitman and were a passionate cRPG player instead of being dismissive of knowledgeable cRPG players because he feels threatned by them?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Sawyer obviously made a lot of mistakes. He was overconfident. But I can’t believe how many people are angry at him for doing what we do here every damn day. He has strong opinions about RPGs? The horror! He thought he was right about things that he turned out to be wrong about? Unforgivable! He disagrees with people who don’t share his design philosophy? The nerve!

That's not the same thing at all. There is a difference between having strong opinions about cRPGs because you are passionate about the subject, and being confident because you think that being a Obsidian's developer qualifies you to be special. The comparison is insulting to every poster here.

Wouldn’t it be worse if he didn’t have strong opinions on game design?

Wouldn't be better if played W8 instead of Hitman and were a passionate cRPG player instead of being dismissive of knowledgeable cRPG players because he feels threatned by them?

Bullshit. Sawyer was very vocal with his opinions even when he was a nobody. Should he tone it down now that he has more experience?

The idea that he doesn’t care about CRPGs is absurd. He just has some bad ideas and he lacks the imagination to understand why they’re bad.

 

[FreeKaner]

I think whole of Obsidian crew is unfit for making an IE game in a fantasy setting. However I think they have potential for other things. Tyranny wasn't a bad game.

Death of dumpsterfire is a good thing.

 

[Alpan]

IMO, asperger's does a better job of explaining where Sawyer went wrong than arrogance does.

I think you just like saying Sawyer has Asperger's, but I don't think you actually have an idea what Asperger's looks like. In any case, you're mistaken about him.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

IMO, asperger's does a better job of explaining where Sawyer went wrong than arrogance does.

I think you just like saying Sawyer has Asperger's, but I don't think you actually have an idea what Asperger's looks like. In any case, you're mistaken about him.

my little brother has it. they seem to have a lot in common!

 

[pomenitul]

Someone in my extended family has a bona fide autistic son and diagnoses everyone and their mother with autism as a result.

 

[Alpan]

I can't say anything about your little brother, but Josh Sawyer looks like no Asperger's/autism-spectrum person that I have known (including myself).

I've always viewed him as a typical Creative With a Big Idea, with his big idea being historical realism and balanced game systems. Like all such creatives, he is loathe to think outside the box he's designed for himself. But he doesn't appear to exhibit an autistic single-mindedness, more like a generalized belief that doesn't easily get swayed (but occasionally does, like in his post-release redesigns of Pillars 1's systems).

 

[Flou]

In Deadfire she wrote Xoti, the most cringe inducing companion, but she also did the writing in Fort Deadlight and the Gullet, which were the game's two best areas.

In Tyranny she wrote Kills-in-Shadow (the worst written companion, although not as bad as the most egregious screenshots of the dialogue would have you believe), but she also wrote Bleden Mark, who was fucking great.

Here's a detailed list of what she did in Deadfire and a less detailed list of Tyranny: http://www.fictivate.com/game-design.html

Starks is fine as long as they don't let her touch the companions, which clearly requires a different skillset.

I will have to take my words back on her. Companions aren't really her thing, unless it's the fantasy setting that makes her fail at it. Those characters she wrote for Fort Deadlight however are really good. Hard to say how much influence the level designer etc. had on that, but I don't remember anything from Fort Deadlight that would have annoyed me one bit. That whole area was really well done. Gullet & The Narrows were fine work as well.

Bleden Mark was really well done character as well. One of my favourites in Tyranny.

But, yes. Keep her off of companions or at least someone needs to manage/teach her when it comes to writing companions. But then again, Paul Kirsch seemed to struggle with the companions on Deadfire as well. I think he did good job with everything else he wrote (including Tyranny).

Edit: Oh, she's been promoted to Senior Narrative Designer. Codex will despair.

 

[Brancaleone]

I can't say anything about your little brother, but Josh Sawyer looks like no Asperger's/autism-spectrum person that I have known (including myself).

I've always viewed him as a typical Creative With a Big Idea, with his big idea being historical realism and balanced game systems. Like all such creatives, he is loathe to think outside the box he's designed for himself. But he doesn't appear to exhibit an autistic single-mindedness, more like a generalized belief that doesn't easily get swayed (but occasionally does, like in his post-release redesigns of Pillars 1's systems).

More than Creative (which can be misleading), I'd call him System-Obsessed. Those guys tend to be not very creative types who believe that if only they discover the Perfect System it will automatically solve any content-related problem. In other words, that a Perfect System will turn any kind of content they'd throw at it into Great Stuff, which is why they tend to spend most of their time and resources on developing the system (just look at IW2).

 

[Sailor Woedica]

Edit: Oh, she's been promoted to Senior Narrative Designer. Codex will despair.

Oh wow, that's awesome for Megan she totally deserves it! I was living for the Xoti and Éder back and forth in Deadfire (I love how she curates fanart of her characters on her website too you can tell how much she loves writing them!)

 

[Thonius]

9̴̰̠͐0̶̺̺͔̠̻̓̇͊̎͒̈́%̳͍͋͢ ̻͑ŏ̼̱͇͐ͮ͜f̵̭̟̲̲ͣ̊ ̶͇͚͎̭͈̘͌͂ͅt͇͎̞ͬḧ͖ẹ̢͙͚̙͛͗̋̀ ̶̪̱̂̋̅ͧ͋ͥͯt̢͖ͬ̉͋ͧ̚ì̠͈̹̙̀̏̽m̓ͣͧ̊ē̥͎̦̍̆͠,̝̼̬̼̟̜ͤ̊͡ ̼̔͐ͬ͟ͅw̻͇̮̯̋̍͆̒h̴̼̻̰͙͇͕̦̎̇ͪ̽̀̍̀e̬͕̩̞͌̒̊̔̂͋͂͡ǹ̷̑ͤ̿̓̈́ ̙̱̈̊̊͞Ȉ́̃ͣ ͈͈̼̟̗͕̖̌ͫͩr̰ę̯̯̭ͣ̓̎ͧ̽̂̏a̳͔̒̋ͪ͝d̷̯̐ͩ͗ͨͭ̏ ̳̭͍͇̗̙͗̆ͤ̅̍ͩ͟a̺̯̭͎̥̻̼̽͋́̾͠ ̶͎͔ͣ͂̌͛ͅñ̘͕͖ͧ͒ͅe̤̼̤ͦ̉͟w̥̲̣̠̱͔̭͐̂ͨ̓̃͐ ̜̭̦ͩͬ́p͆o͙͕̲͙̿ͥ̒ͪ͊ͦs̷̬̹ṯ͎̝̯̪̝͌ͭ̅͊͋ ̲̰͓̪͙̘ǫ͈̮̫̰̆̏ͭͦͯͅn̬̱̯ͣ̆͑ ̥͕͐̐̌̓̈́ͯt̮̫͎͈̥̠̄h͉̥̝̜͖̥͋́ī̦̬̑̊̽̏̕s͒̉͑ ̛̩̫͈͇̍͆̊̾f̍ͮo͈̼͍̦̓ͦͨͯ̚r̜̝̝͞ŭ͔͈̺̰͕̂̑ͬ͗ͤm̳̰̖̣̩̒̂͋͗́͗̂͠ ͯͦͭ҉i̜̯͚͒̐̓͒̅̉ͅt̰̺͔͙̖͍̙̏͐̈̏͋ͭ̀ ̦͓̰͙̞͓̭̃̉ͯf͍̹̳͚̞̬̫̐̂̂̒ͯ̋̈́ḙ̛̪̫̬͙̓̊̐ͮͯe̱̮͓͊̿̆͆͂l̡̯͔͔̲̫͙̅ͦ̾ͤ̾s̙̲ͫ͋̽̑ͤ̈́̀ ̛̩͈̓ͫli̲̺͆̽ͨ̎ͅk̰̠̩̩̳ͦͥͪͫͣ̑̕ẽ̬̉̄̓̿ͨ̍ ͙̭̘̂a̭͔͎͕͒ ̖͇̹̥ͥ̋̀ř̸̰̬ͩ͌ẹ̸̝̔̈́̾͊͌͛h͎͚̱̦̼̋͌ͫ͊͊́a̷̩̪̒͌̐ͮ̐̉s̬̬̩̫͊̌̊ͦͬh͔̗̤̯͙̅ͯ̽ ̪̩ͥ̉̑͑ͩ̎͑ͅo̖͈͕̞͆̇ͩ̉f͇͇̩̊͒ ̠̩̳͈̯͙̆̂ͨ̐̌͋ͯo͙̰̺̙̗͋̓ͯ̿̐̃̊l̺͔̞̲͍ͭ̇͋d͙́͊ͩě̈ͫ͝r͓̱̺͠ ̱̼̠̬̝̑̽ͅpͪó̻͔͙̩̱̳͖s̉̆ͯͮ̄t͏̞s̴̰̞̝̘̘͓͌́̇͐.̘̬̲̹͊̈ ̙͎̥̜̄I̞̖͈̓̿̚ ̞̖̣̠̜̭̟t̳̱̺̱͇̥ͨ̓̄͆ͩ̿̌h̤̞̹ͩͦͤͨ̏̂i̯̦ͣ̏ͬ̓n̥ͅk̷͉͔̞ͫ̈́̍͋̓ ̘̬͎͈͔̫I̺̺͍͇͚ͮ̌̆̅̚ ͓ͬ̀m̸̥̭̟̝͊ͧͤ̑̔ĭ̮̟ͭ̀g͛͊̾h̵̫̙̯̘̪̮͚̽̽ͩ̅ͥ͆t̛ͮͬͣͥ̂ ̂͏̠͓̹̻̟̬ȟ̞̗͚̺͓͎̘͊̐̐ͨ͂ǎ͎̟̗͕͙̩̥̎ͫ̎̀v̘̮͙̗̞̓ͩͦͥ̅ͫ̀e̯̤̭͉͚̍ ̮̊ͧͣ̎b͖͔͒͛ͤ̏̚͞r͍͉͓̯̊ͨ̐̔ą̞ï͇̌̌ͧ̾n̤̘̼̮ͮ ̜̺d͕͉̮a̞̓ͬ̓̑̋ͦm͔̭ͨ͌̂ͤͭ͛̽à̼͖͔̭͍͍̘͊̌g̬͆͒̀̓́̒̈ͅē̠͉͔̺͑͑ͮ̚.̛͖͖̰͔̳̠̞ͦ ̠̠̯̜ͧͤP̯̭̼̘̼̩̮̂̏ͤ̇̂ͬl̫̳̘̆ḛ̲̹̔͑̊͋a̝̪̳̭̽̂͌ͦ̌ͫs̵͖̹ͧ͂́e͙̣͎͚̠̞̹͝ ̴̟͖ͅh̬͇͇͇̎̋̾̇e̜̘l̨̼p̢̝̹̞̦̗̳͔ͩ.̘̦̯̙̖͖̫ͣ͞

 

[hexer]

Infinitron , here's the source of his quote: Another problem is that "we listen to the vocal players, who in many cases are wrong-headed."

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/36637/GDC_

There's a lot of issues there. What would you say are the top three things he was too arrogant to address?

The "top 3 things he didn't address at all" that I list below are all content related.
Content was often his weakest point. I still remember how it took me years to finally accept that his personal history obsession made him inject Roman Empire LARP-ers into Fallout's world.
Hail Caesar!

Anyway, I did notice he tried improving PoE1 mechanics and encounter design in Deadfire.
But in the end, those changes weren't' anything significant to write home about.

1. Incredibly enough, Deadfire's plot is worse than PoE1.
   It reminds me of a very bland version of Planescape's Dead Gods adventure, but not in a good way.
   I absolutely felt no motivation nor emotional connection to the story or characters.
   The theatre scenes when you talk with other gods take the reward for the dullest godhood scenes ever.
   
   
2. Uninspired world - finally they're doing their own IP and can take it in any fantastical direction they want to.
   But no... they choose to mix together Hawaii, Japan and Caribbean pirates and hope it will be an unforgettable experience for players.
   
   
3. Sidequests design - Darth Roxor nicely described how sidequests are the same or perhaps worse than in PoE1 here https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10984

 

[AwesomeButton]

Someone in my extended family has a bona fide autistic son and diagnoses everyone and their mother with autism as a result.

Duh, this diagnosing left and right. By today's standards, me and most of my firends are autists. You concentrate too hard as a kid - it may be autism! You can't concentrate for too long - it may be autism! Bullshit.

Edit: Oh, she's been promoted to Senior Narrative Designer. Codex will despair.

Oh wow, that's awesome for Megan she totally deserves it! I was living for the Xoti and Éder back and forth in Deadfire (I love how she curates fanart of her characters on her website too you can tell how much she loves writing them!)

 

[pomenitul]

Duh, this diagnosing left and right. By today's standards, me and most of my firends are autists. You concentrate too hard as a kid - it may be autism! You can't concentrate for too long - it may be autism! Bullshit.

Not to mention the richness of making such an adamant claim on this here board. I wouldn't trust any of us on matters of mental health, to say the least.

 

[BEvers]

Not to mention the richness of making such an adamant claim on this here board. I wouldn't trust any of us on matters of mental health, to say the least.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Speak for yourself, my mental state is in perfect