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Mystic Land: The Search for Maphaldo - Old school RPG inspired by W7 and EoB

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
Another repost.
Only 4 screenshots I already posted (maybe some of you missed any of these).
Working hard on the game (especially the battle mode at the moment - video soon!), so didn't have the time to prepare any new material.

 

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
We are having a bit of a discussion about "Hid-Un-Chet" skill (skill that enables the "hiding" during the fight).

We plan to make this skill available not only to Ninjas, but also to the Samurai, Thief and Jester.

If hidden, the damage dealt is much higher (currently about 50% the normal damage) - backstabbing. You also get a (heavy) bonus on "to hit" calculations.
Furthermore, opponents cannot attack you while you are hidden.
When the battle round ends, there is a percentage chance calculated and tested to see if the character was found (the higher the Hid-Un-Chet skill, the less likely your party member will be found).
The character is 100% found the moment he/she strikes the opponent, but NOT if the strike was "missile type" (bow, shurikens, ...)

We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?
 

Grauken

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
13,173
We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?
I like it, though I'm not sure why also the Jester, doesn't strike me as a character who would be good at hiding (quite the opposite).

Not sure if its possible, but you could make it so that for succesful hiding certain clothing is better than other, say a Samurai with some light clothing would be okay but if he's in full Samurai armor he gets a malus when trying to hide
 

negator2vc

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2017
Messages
341
Location
Greece
I can understand Thief having the hide skill but Samurai and Jester having the skill is a BIG NO.
The whole idea with classes is for each class to have unique skills & tactics otherwise
why have classes in the first place?
Just out of curiosity, do you plan to make class change possible like in Wizardry 7?
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
29,855
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
We are having a bit of a discussion about "Hid-Un-Chet" skill (skill that enables the "hiding" during the fight).

We plan to make this skill available not only to Ninjas, but also to the Samurai, Thief and Jester.

If hidden, the damage dealt is much higher (currently about 50% the normal damage) - backstabbing. You also get a (heavy) bonus on "to hit" calculations.
Furthermore, opponents cannot attack you while you are hidden.
When the battle round ends, there is a percentage chance calculated and tested to see if the character was found (the higher the Hid-Un-Chet skill, the less likely your party member will be found).
The character is 100% found the moment he/she strikes the opponent, but NOT if the strike was "missile type" (bow, shurikens, ...)

We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?
You don't have a positioning mechanic do you? Dudes in front more likely to be spotted than dudes in the back and all that.
 

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?
I like it, though I'm not sure why also the Jester, doesn't strike me as a character who would be good at hiding (quite the opposite).

Not sure if its possible, but you could make it so that for succesful hiding certain clothing is better than other, say a Samurai with some light clothing would be okay but if he's in full Samurai armor he gets a malus when trying to hide
Jester is very dexterious, "nimble" character (similar to thief). But yeh, maybe a think-over needed as Jester already has quite a powerful special skill in Wardance.

Clothes would be difficult to include into the calculations for hiding (no "heavy armor/light armor" mechanic in the game).
 

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
I can understand Thief having the hide skill but Samurai and Jester having the skill is a BIG NO.
The whole idea with classes is for each class to have unique skills & tactics otherwise
why have classes in the first place?
Just out of curiosity, do you plan to make class change possible like in Wizardry 7?
Yes, as I mentioned above, Jester already have Wardance so will probably lose the "Hid-Un-Chet".
Samurai was meant as similar to ninja but different weaponry and magic style when leveling up. They both have ability to "one shot kill" as well (by using "Tho-Hai-Doh" skill).
At least that was the thinking behind it.

No class changes possible. Too hard (at least for us) to balance it properly (could be abused to no end in Wiz 7 ;) ).
 

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
We are having a bit of a discussion about "Hid-Un-Chet" skill (skill that enables the "hiding" during the fight).

We plan to make this skill available not only to Ninjas, but also to the Samurai, Thief and Jester.

If hidden, the damage dealt is much higher (currently about 50% the normal damage) - backstabbing. You also get a (heavy) bonus on "to hit" calculations.
Furthermore, opponents cannot attack you while you are hidden.
When the battle round ends, there is a percentage chance calculated and tested to see if the character was found (the higher the Hid-Un-Chet skill, the less likely your party member will be found).
The character is 100% found the moment he/she strikes the opponent, but NOT if the strike was "missile type" (bow, shurikens, ...)

We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?
You don't have a positioning mechanic do you? Dudes in front more likely to be spotted than dudes in the back and all that.
Not for when you are hiding and then get spotted.

It is the "closest can reach further but gets beat more times as well" mechanic in the normal fight ;)

It works with combination of "what row the player is in" (2-2-2 formation) and the reach of the weapon (short, long, unlimited)

You can't stick a dagger into the mage's hand in the back row and expect him/her to poke at the monsters with it. Change the dagger for a staff though and maybe he can reach the opponents in the front row ;)
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
9,231
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
To be quite honest, hiding in the middle of combat always struck me as a bit silly. Especially if the said combat is happening in a tight corridor with not much in the area but the party and the enemies. I would suggest that characters with the sneak skill have a chance to start as hidden, and maybe a chance to hide again on further rounds once they are found; possibly based on how chaotic the battlefield is (and how skilled they are, of course).

Edit: Also, ranged weapon might not get such an improvement from hiding. I mean, the monster on the front row with a big shield over his torso facing off your front row fighters probably doesn't have much time to pay attention to the dude in the back row aiming a crossbow, whether he is hidden or not. Alternatively, I could see extra damage being justified by the sneak somehow going behind the enemy lines and shooting their backs. But in that case, you could balance this by having them on a special row if found, where they can be hit by those monsters more in the back and possibly with a bonus at that since they lack the help of a formation and thus can be hit from every side.
 
Last edited:

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
To be quite honest, hiding in the middle of combat always struck me as a bit silly. Especially if the said combat is happening in a tight corridor with not much in the area but the party and the enemies. I would suggest that characters with the sneak skill have a chance to start as hidden, and maybe a chance to hide again on further rounds once they are found; possibly based on how chaotic the battlefield is (and how skilled they are, of course).
True, but quite a few things don't really make sense in "Wizardry" mechanic (like ambush in tight corridors ;) )... but we still like it. ;)
So we will keep the skill and the mechanic, but we do want to make sure it doesn't get too OP.
 

Grauken

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
13,173
To be quite honest, hiding in the middle of combat always struck me as a bit silly. Especially if the said combat is happening in a tight corridor with not much in the area but the party and the enemies. I would suggest that characters with the sneak skill have a chance to start as hidden, and maybe a chance to hide again on further rounds once they are found; possibly based on how chaotic the battlefield is (and how skilled they are, of course).
True, but quite a few things don't really make sense in "Wizardry" mechanic (like ambush in tight corridors ;) )... but we still like it. ;)
So we will keep the skill and the mechanic, but we do want to make sure it doesn't get too OP.
I always thought of the tight, grid-based corridors as abstractions of more winding, meandering paths that represent sometimes bigger or smaller spaces in dungeons, so hiding and even combat makes more sense if you don't exactly think of the world as constructed from perfectly cubic corridor pieces
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
15,167
Location
Eastern block
We are having a bit of a discussion about "Hid-Un-Chet" skill (skill that enables the "hiding" during the fight).

We plan to make this skill available not only to Ninjas, but also to the Samurai, Thief and Jester.

If hidden, the damage dealt is much higher (currently about 50% the normal damage) - backstabbing. You also get a (heavy) bonus on "to hit" calculations.
Furthermore, opponents cannot attack you while you are hidden.
When the battle round ends, there is a percentage chance calculated and tested to see if the character was found (the higher the Hid-Un-Chet skill, the less likely your party member will be found).
The character is 100% found the moment he/she strikes the opponent, but NOT if the strike was "missile type" (bow, shurikens, ...)

We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?

Just do it like Wiz 6-7

100% found regardless of weapon, then you need to hide again

Don't overcomplicate
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
8,620
Having played through most of Wizardry 7 with a solo Monk, my experience was that you could sometimes remain hidden after attacking someone. I guess that's because it's unarmed instead of using a weapon? I'd be OK with just copying Wizardry 7's mechanics wholesale, but I also like what you described above (other than Samurai and Jester having the hide skill).
 

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
OK, thanks for replies.

Jester lost the hide skill, for Samurai - we will see. Will be debated a bit more.
As for "found when attacking" - we will also debate a bit more, maybe try the "hybrid" method of testing the skill each time you attack with ranged weapon and 100% found when backstabbing.

If anyone has any other ideas - keep them coming.
I assure you, we are listening (ok, reading :) ).
 

newtmonkey

Arcane
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Goblin Lair
SirBlabsAlot
I would suggest keeping hide just for the thief and ninja. It really makes no sense imo to have a samurai skulking about in the shadows and stabbing enemies in the back since the popular conception of a samurai is a (comparatively) heavily armored soldier. It's better imo just to give the samurai that one shot kill ability you mentioned.
 

SirBlabsAlot

MegaVision Software
Developer
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
188
SirBlabsAlot
I would suggest keeping hide just for the thief and ninja. It really makes no sense imo to have a samurai skulking about in the shadows and stabbing enemies in the back since the popular conception of a samurai is a (comparatively) heavily armored soldier. It's better imo just to give the samurai that one shot kill ability you mentioned.
Yeh, you got a point.
Will be taken into consideration.
 

Lady Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
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Vatnik
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
9,215
Strap Yourselves In
We would like your oppinion. Did we go too far? Will skill be OP (especially the "striking with missile type weapons")?
I used the hiding skill quite a bit in Wizardry 6-7, but almost never in Grimoire because most fights did not last long and the payoff from hiding was not large enough. And towards the end in those you could get much of your party to hide due to class changes, which won't be possible here.

I would definitely let the ninja and thief stay hidden if they use ranged attacks or magic, especially if ranged attacks are not unlimited and require finding arrows and such like in Wizardry. Ninja and thief probably do not have much magic either.

So I would not worry about making the skill OP, but quite the opposite - make it worthwhile to lose a turn for hiding instead of dealing damage every turn.

No class changes possible. Too hard (at least for us) to balance it properly (could be abused to no end in Wiz 7 ;) ).
As long as a lot of level ups are possible, I think that is fine. In Grimoire it was very difficult to level up after around Level 8-9 due to very high XP requirements. So class changes made a lot more sense there.

It is the "closest can reach further but gets beat more times as well" mechanic in the normal fight ;)

It works with combination of "what row the player is in" (2-2-2 formation) and the reach of the weapon (short, long, unlimited)

You can't stick a dagger into the mage's hand in the back row and expect him/her to poke at the monsters with it. Change the dagger for a staff though and maybe he can reach the opponents in the front row ;)
This is very good.
 

Casual Hero

Prophet
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
489
Location
USA
I like the points that were brought up here.
For a thief type character hiding makes sense, because it gives them a chance to contribute to the combat from the backrows and the boost in damage makes it worth it.
If samurais could hide, I would start to wonder if it was worth it to lose an entire turn for a 50% boost in damage. It doesn't seem like the payoff would be worth it, especially considering the risk of losing entire turns to failed hiding when you want your front-line fighters to be doing consistent damage.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
9,231
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
To be quite honest, hiding in the middle of combat always struck me as a bit silly. Especially if the said combat is happening in a tight corridor with not much in the area but the party and the enemies. I would suggest that characters with the sneak skill have a chance to start as hidden, and maybe a chance to hide again on further rounds once they are found; possibly based on how chaotic the battlefield is (and how skilled they are, of course).
True, but quite a few things don't really make sense in "Wizardry" mechanic (like ambush in tight corridors ;) )... but we still like it. ;)
So we will keep the skill and the mechanic, but we do want to make sure it doesn't get too OP.
I always thought of the tight, grid-based corridors as abstractions of more winding, meandering paths that represent sometimes bigger or smaller spaces in dungeons, so hiding and even combat makes more sense if you don't exactly think of the world as constructed from perfectly cubic corridor pieces

I disagree with you not on what you say, which is obviously correct. I mean, grid maps are always going to be abstractions of the real place, even for something like a building that was carefully built. For instance, a 5x5 room is usually quite large in these games, but that either means that the corridor is way too large or the rooms are way too small. Not only that, but obviously there are things that aren't represented in the map either, otherwise these ancient dungeons are somehow always very clean and clear of any debris. What I disagree with is that this would justify hiding when you are still in a tight corridor. A tight corridor is still a tight corridor; and while some cases might justify the use of the hide ability a couple of times (maybe there is a broken door lying somewhere in the corridor where the thief can hide behind and then sneak when no one is paying attention), it shouldn't be every time.

True, but quite a few things don't really make sense in "Wizardry" mechanic

It's fun so who gives a shit

When you starting thinking with "oh this doesnt make sense in RL" you become like failed idiot Soyer

Sawyer is quite happy in making stuff that doesn't make a lick of sense, such as muscle wizards and whatnot. The point about making sense has nothing to do with balance; and is in fact frequently opposite to it.

At any rate, RPGs should strive to "make sense"; or to be more exact, to maintain some internal logic that guides everything. For instance, you could have things in an RPG that don't make sense in real life, such as elves and trolls or time travel or flying ships or what have you. But these things should follow their own logic and laws. If elves are a kind of fairy and all fairies in your world have some weird taboos they can't at all transgress or they must leave the world, then this should be part of the elf race as well, and could be an interesting aspect to roleplay. In fact, I would say that having the game make sense is a crucial aspect of what a CRPG is. Abstract games like Go or Chess or Poker. These games don't need an internal logic to the rules (even if there was some internal consistency driving how the rules were made at one time).

Most computer games on the other hand aren't abstract like that, but of course have some level of abstraction. Pacman, for instance, has a high level of abstraction to the point that it is hard to know what exactly you are or what you are doing. A game like Ultima 7 on the other hand is much less abstract, though; of course, there are abstractions (such as experience points, attributes, there not being any kind of bathroom in the houses, etc. One important aspect of an RPG is not only avoiding abstractions that muddle up the imaginary world; but also using abstractions that help you create this imaginary world. JRPGs, for instance, frequently sin on this aspect because the attributes they use and their values frequently are absolutely meaningless outside the battle system; which frequently seems to exist completely separated from the narrative aspect as well.

Now, going back to Wizardry's stealth; I don't think there is anything wrong with using it. Certainly, it is much less grating that something like Underrail having emp blasts make robots immune to further emp blasts for a while or broken ribs regenerating in 3 turns. But I see nothing wrong with making the concept less abstract either. In fact, I would argue that it would make the game more of an RPG. Games like Wizardry and Might & Magic frequently did things some way because they were imitating tabletop games (especially Dungeons & Dragons). In tabletop games, having very abstract rules can work very well as long as the DM and the players keep making things more concrete using specific actions rather than playing the game as if it was a board game where all your possible moves are given by the rules. Computer games, on the other hand, don't have this ability, however.
 

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