Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Made a new Gamasutra article: The danger of letting the gaming industry curate its own history

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
For maximum lulz it should have been brought up that one of the earliest collaborations made by Roberta was for a porn game.
The truly toxic things about gaming industry are how serious people get when they elevate games into the "art" category, while constantly shitting out evidently broken products. And I'm not talking about games which are bad due to a matter of taste, I'm talking about the Bad Rats, Air Control et al territory. Then you have the irritated devs shutting down everything, then the TB/Angry Joe/whoever video mocking them, rinse and repeat. However, the lukewarm reception received by DA:I got me thinking about a possible stagnation of the current gaming press scene. Magically new GotY awards keep popping up for that game yet nobody really seems anxious or excited about the game. Not even biodrones themselves. There are a number of them who say stuff like "it's not like I hated the game, but...". Still, the KS projects we all know and love are being absolutely successful, despite of being somewhat ignored by gaming press.
My own two cents: games are not art, they will never be, and they should never be, even. We have a pretty warped notion of what's art and what's not art. If anything, I blame the Bauhaus.

Well I do consider some games to be a piece of art, even great ones at that. Like Planescape:Torment or System Shock 2.
Thing is, just like in painting, music, sculpting, carpenting, etc. there are probably a million pieces of work who are at best average if not outright crap for every master piece that exists or comes into existence and it behaves the same in games.
I have maybe 5 games I'd rate on the current 100 scale around 90 in my odd 25 years having played probably 100s of games on console and PC and none are from the current decade.

Not only that, but many of these games were designed to waste the player's time - fine at the dawn of gaming, not so fine now.
Lol, modern Beth and Bio games aren't designed to waste the players time?
Yeah, that comes off as bullshit when 2014 was marked by games like Destiny and Dragon Age: Inquisition...

There is no time wasted when you run through empty meaningless space while popamoling [please insert thenextunimaginativestandardtrashmob] !
 
Last edited:

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,312
Location
Terra da Garoa
Ugh... what he says isn't wrong per se, but the way he puts it is idiotic, like that was the only reason to feel nostalgic. He never once considers that perhaps some good old games are in fact better than recent ones, or that many people who go back to nostalgic titles enjoy them perfectly well - they were indeed as good as he remembered.

It's clearly a case of someone having a set point of view and only researching & citing stuff that confirms it.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Ugh... what he says isn't wrong per se, but the way he puts it is idiotic, like that was the only reason to feel nostalgic. He never once considers that perhaps some good old games are in fact better than recent ones, or that many people who go back to nostalgic titles enjoy them perfectly well - they were indeed as good as he remembered.

It's clearly a case of someone having a set point of view and only researching & citing stuff that confirms it.

No RPG in the last 1 1/2 decade has been able to surpass Planescape:Torment for me. Same with System Shock 2.
 

Tehdagah

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
10,304
It's spreading:

https://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/why-video-game-history-matters/

Of course, relates it to Nintendo. It's his thing. But no platform, country, or era has been safe from The War on Truth and Past.
I can't stand him.

Lie: Ever since the 3d revolution, there is no interest in 2d gaming.

Truth: Console companies wanted software to show off their expensive 3d consoles. Sony actually discouraged 2d games on the Play Station so it is a wonder we got Castlevania: Symphony of Night. Nintendo wanted nothing to do with 2d and would have abandoned 2d in the 8-bit and 16-bit if the technology was there. The truth is that the lack of 2d game sales was due to lack of supply, not lack of demand. NSMB comes out and BOOM! The lie gets put to rest.

Why: Shigeru Miyamoto and others at Nintendo think 3d is the bee’s knees. Even now they sabotage 2d Mario for 3d Mario (pushing out NSMB U to die at launch, putting all the elements of 2d gaming not in the 2d games but in the 3d games such as 4 different characters [also done in Mario 64 DS]. Giant World only goes to 3d Mario, not 2d Mario. ). Super Mario Brothers is the most successful franchise in history and Miyamoto, far from being a good upholder of it, destroyed the value of the series costing Nintendo countless millions with his sick, sick pursuit of 3d ‘at all costs’.

Mario should've stayed in 2D, forever!!!1111

Also, I'm curious:

Lie: Super Metroid was about Samus’s ‘maternal instincts’.
Who said this? Hipsters who desire videogames to be acknowledged as art?
 

Kingston

Arcane
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
4,392
Location
I lack the wit to put something hilarious here
Mario should've stayed in 2D, forever!!!1111

3D Mario and 2D Mario are completely different style of games (which is represented in sales, with NSMB Wii having over 28 million copies sold, while the 3D ones only sell a few million). The problem is that Nintendo just doesn't want to make 2D games (with NSMB Wii being the first 2D Mario on a home console since the early 90s).

Lie: Super Metroid was about Samus’s ‘maternal instincts’.
Who said this? Hipsters who desire videogames to be acknowledged as art?

Sakamoto, who created the game, who went on to make a bunch of shit (so yes, a hipster).
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
Ugh... what he says isn't wrong per se, but the way he puts it is idiotic, like that was the only reason to feel nostalgic. He never once considers that perhaps some good old games are in fact better than recent ones, or that many people who go back to nostalgic titles enjoy them perfectly well - they were indeed as good as he remembered.

It's clearly a case of someone having a set point of view and only researching & citing stuff that confirms it.
"One of the main problems with these so-called fans is the fact that they never want things to change. They'd rather that games never evolve, and that 1996 remain the last year a new game was ever made. Nobody typifies this more than Fallout fanboys, who threw a fitful tantrum over[URL='http://www.destructoid.com/destructoid-review-fallout-3-109810.phtml']Fallout 3. Their problem? The fact that it wasn't 100% exactly like the original Fallout." [/url]

Must be a 2010 thing. The guy goes so far as to incorporate and cite peer-reviewed research articles and never once actually demonstrates that he has tested his hypothesis, either. I think you're on to something.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
4,519
Location
Hyperborea
Just another soldier in The War on Truth and Past. If it were just nostalgia, it wouldn't bother these people so much. They act like they have a vested interest in people "realizing" that new = better.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
"One of the main problems with these so-called fans is the fact that they never want things to change. They'd rather that games never evolve, and that 1996 remain the last year a new game was ever made. Nobody typifies this more than Fallout fanboys, who threw a fitful tantrum overFallout 3. Their problem? The fact that it wasn't 100% exactly like the original Fallout."

Must be a 2010 thing. The guy goes so far as to incorporate and cite peer-reviewed research articles and never once actually demonstrates that he has tested his hypothesis, either. I think you're on to something.
It's a sad day when fans are worse than critics, but that's the world we live in.
He says at least one thing I can agree with.
 
Last edited:

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Ugh... what he says isn't wrong per se, but the way he puts it is idiotic, like that was the only reason to feel nostalgic. He never once considers that perhaps some good old games are in fact better than recent ones, or that many people who go back to nostalgic titles enjoy them perfectly well - they were indeed as good as he remembered.

It's clearly a case of someone having a set point of view and only researching & citing stuff that confirms it.

To be fair, the article is from way back in 2010. Before Kickstarter "renaissance" and, I think, most such efforts to curate the past. Its from an even darker time than we currently live today. That said, I think we can partially forgive him for essentially adding textbook references that confirm his own preconceptions about the history of videogames. Even back then though, he still conceived to a point in the comment section:

But at any rate, I get what you’re talking about with enjoying specific parts of the better games from the past. And you can dive deep into arguments about specific mechanics like navigation and the like. And despite using it as an example in the image caption above, I can safely say that I enjoyed Ultima IV more than many RPGs I’ve played since simply because many other things were involved besides the quality of the game itself: first-time experiences, talking about it with my dad and my friends, and stuff like that.

But I think all that misses the point that when we think that gaming AS A WHOLE (or even in large part) used to be better than it is now, we’re misremembering the past simply because it’s pleasant to do so. Games have never been better or more widely played.

At any rate his blog still seems to be going strong and a certain felipe pepe might want to engage on a scholarly debate.

:3
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,742
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
"Games have never been more widely played" as a positive point says all you need to know. Sure, it's nice, but what does that have to do with quality?

Also, I'm curious:

Lie: Super Metroid was about Samus’s ‘maternal instincts’.
Who said this? Hipsters who desire videogames to be acknowledged as art?

eh, it's pretty obvious looking at her relationship with the baby Metroid. (I wouldn't call it "what SM is all about" though, just an element)
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I remember transferring my life force to my mother as an infant to power her arm laser

Wouldn't Super Metroid be more about like some indian-fighter texas ranger having his life saved by an indian child? Then he gives the child to some scientists so they can vivisect it
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
"Games have never been more widely played" as a positive point says all you need to know. Sure, it's nice, but what does that have to do with quality?
Well, he might be implying games are more widely played now because they're better. Which is faulty reasoning in itself, of course.
 

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
4,519
Location
Hyperborea
But at any rate, I get what you’re talking about with enjoying specific parts of the better games from the past. And you can dive deep into arguments about specific mechanics like navigation and the like. And despite using it as an example in the image caption above, I can safely say that I enjoyed Ultima IV more than many RPGs I’ve played since simply because many other things were involved besides the quality of the game itself: first-time experiences, talking about it with my dad and my friends, and stuff like that.

Being interesting is more important than being good. Ultima 4 has interesting things in it that Bioware and Bethesda don't do. If developer were doing these things, we wouldn't complain that they aren't. If people can't grasp this simple concept, there is nothing more to discuss with them.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
"Games have never been more widely played" as a positive point says all you need to know. Sure, it's nice, but what does that have to do with quality?

Also, I'm curious:

Lie: Super Metroid was about Samus’s ‘maternal instincts’.
Who said this? Hipsters who desire videogames to be acknowledged as art?

eh, it's pretty obvious looking at her relationship with the baby Metroid. (I wouldn't call it "what SM is all about" though, just an element)
bbbbut more people buying your favorite game is a good thing! then they have a bigger bujit to make the next game with so it can appeal to even more people!:mad:K!@!
 

Melan

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
6,977
Location
Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae, Hungary
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. I helped put crap in Monomyth
Imagine a literary critic making the argument that liking books from twenty years ago is a quaint phenomenon best discussed within the framework of nostalgia, or a compensating mechanism for feeling sad while reading more advanced, modern books like Fifty Shades of Grey.

Because this guy is making that argument.

What would happen? He wouldn't be laughed at. The other literary critics would just stare at him without comprehension, or maybe one of them would make a dry chuckle -- "Our esteemed colleague is feeling frisky today, it seems. Well then, what else is on our agenda for tonight? ...Joyce? I thought so." -- and that would be it.
 

MrContinuity

Learned
Joined
Feb 20, 2015
Messages
69
Qualities are timeless, Pachelbel's work is still beautiful music that he probably wrote on what would be considered a meagre amount of money today. And I am sure Ke$ha spends a massive amount of money and she still produces utter garbage. Would any of these troglodytes apply this same argument to my two examples? "But Ke$ha has a producer and an autotuner and millions of (wasted) dollars! Her music has to be better!

This kind of philistine philosophy is both dimwitted and laughably inconsistent.

I would argue that video games are not art, because they exist and are made for a purpose other than just to be made and witnessed, namely that they are to be played and interactive.
Although it's painful to admit it, in the interest of consistency whatever music Ke$ha produces is "art". (art that is utterly worthless and banal), but it still meets the definition of art to my mind.


Ugh... what he says isn't wrong per se, but the way he puts it is idiotic, like that was the only reason to feel nostalgic. He never once considers that perhaps some good old games are in fact better than recent ones, or that many people who go back to nostalgic titles enjoy them perfectly well - they were indeed as good as he remembered.

It's clearly a case of someone having a set point of view and only researching & citing stuff that confirms it.
"One of the main problems with these so-called fans is the fact that they never want things to change. They'd rather that games never evolve, and that 1996 remain the last year a new game was ever made. Nobody typifies this more than Fallout fanboys, who threw a fitful tantrum overFallout 3. Their problem? The fact that it wasn't 100% exactly like the original Fallout."

Must be a 2010 thing. The guy goes so far as to incorporate and cite peer-reviewed research articles and never once actually demonstrates that he has tested his hypothesis, either. I think you're on to something.

YOU GUYS ONLY LIKE FALLOUT 2 (Kanon in D) BECAUSE IT'S OLD, NOW LET ME USE MY CONFIRMATION BIAS TO PROVE IT!
 

Keldryn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
1,053
Location
Vancouver, Canada
Let's be honest (and cruel) here - they aren't. I have little respect for game design schools, they seem to be all about teaching people how to "think inside the box - i.e., latest design trends = what you should do - and teach them a bit of everything, but nothing in-depth. I have friends that graduated in game design here in São Paulo and regret it deeply. Maybe in gringoland they are better, I don't know.

Not really, at least in my experience. Back in 2003, I was laid off from my programming job and moved back in with my parents for a while. I had always wanted to make games and had gone way off track, so I thought that I would give it an honest effort, and a dedicated game school seemed like it might provide a way in (they didn't really exist back when I finished high school). I don't regret getting into that program, but I do regret waiting until the 2nd (4-month) semester to drop it.

They do teach some useful things there. The quality of the instruction varies tremendously. The instructor of my class on Photoshop was fantastic and he had worked for a few different visual effects studios in the TV and film industries. The guy who taught the introductory 3D modeling class was doing it to supplement his regular job of digging graves (I'm not kidding). The guy who taught the first of the courses on "Game Design" was a 20 year old guy who had been in the right place at the right time on a temp QA job and was recruited for design work on some obscure games that I can no longer remember what they were.

One of the key elements of the program was that in the 2nd year, students would form development teams across the separate design, art, and programming tracks to create their own games over an 8 month period (each team being guided by an instructor), using the Unreal Tournament engine. Unfortunately, that got axed by the new owners of the school (The Art Institutes) just after I finished my 1st semester there.

The way I see it, for the price that students have to pay to attend these schools, there should be a significantly higher percentage of students actually getting jobs in the industry. These schools are presented as vocational training, yet I would guess that no more than 10-15% of the people who were in some stage of one of the game development tracks when I was there managed to establish a career in the games industry. Given that they are typically far more expensive than getting a college or university degree, there is no way that I would recommend a game design school to anybody.

I didn't learn anything useful regarding game design in the nearly 8 months that I was there. There was a class which covered art history, color theory, and the like which was actually useful. The Photoshop class was very useful, as was the 3D modeling class (even if the instructor wasn't a professional). The class on presentation and public speaking was also useful. There was also a class on visual storytelling that examined games, movies, TV, cartoons, etc but without the bullshit lens of postmodernism or critical theory.

At the time that I was enrolled in that game design program, I also worked on what ended up being the bulk of my contribution to world building for Ultima V: Lazarus. Ian was working hard to get that pre-alpha demo done so that he could release it (and demo it personally for Richard Garriott), so I often found myself working on that instead of doing my homework. I learned way more about making games from contributing to Lazarus than I did from a game design school.

TL;DR: If you want to learn to make games, make your own mod or join a team in building an extensive mod instead of paying $$$$ to a game design school.

Bringing this back to the topic of this thread: I already mentioned that I was 29 at the time. There were about ten of us who started together in that game design class. Two of them were 18 and fresh out of high school (one of them got hired by Rockstar the same day I did and he's still there). Most of them were around 22. We had one class that got into the history of video and computer games, and it became very clear at that point who really had a sense of the history of the industry (me and the instructor) and who didn't (everyone else). At least they were trying to teach about the history of the industry. In various classes, I seemed to keep coming up with examples from games that none of the other students had played (Deus Ex) or even heard of (Ultima VII).
 
Last edited:

Keldryn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
1,053
Location
Vancouver, Canada
Wow. None of the others had played Deus Ex?

Nope.

Also, nobody else had ever played any of the following games/series: Wizardry, Ultima, The Bard's Tale, Might & Magic, any Sierra graphic adventures, SSI's AD&D "Gold Box" games, Thief, System Shock, Wasteland, Wing Commander, X-Wing, or any real flight simulators (Falcon, etc). I'm pretty sure that nobody else had played either Fallout game either, but I'm not 100% certain of that one.

Most of them did play PC games, but they were either multiplayer FPS games, real time strategy, or Everquest. A couple of them had never owned nor played games on an NES, with their first exposure to electronic gaming being a SNES or Sega Genesis (it might even have been the N64 for one of the fresh-out-of-high-schoolers). In the class where we studied the history of the game industry, the instructor brought in one of each of the systems that the school had (PS2, Xbox, Gamecube) and asked us to bring in any older systems if we were able to. I brought in a Colecovision that my mom came across at a garage sale right around this time, and none of the other students had ever seen one before (some had never heard of it).

Nobody else in that class had played a game on an Atari 2600 or Intellivision. Nobody else had ever played a game on a Commodore 64, Apple II, or Amiga -- or had ever even used one, for that matter.

And that was 12 years ago. A 20 year old entering a game school this year was born around the time the Playstation, Saturn, and Nintendo 64 hit the market and likely would have grown up with the Playstation 2. No sense of history. Didn't you know that Grand Theft Auto III invented open-world gameplay?
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,312
Location
Terra da Garoa
It will only get worse, especially with apologists like Boyd saying that "games take too much time"... I bet every student in those classes has a multiplayer game that they really love - like DOTA, LOL, TF2, Callofiduty - with hundreds of hours logged in. Take a decent "Top 100 games of all time" list and play 2 hours of each game - that's 200 hours, less than what some biodrones spent on Dragon Age: Inquisition in the last couple of months.

Sure, not every game will be perfectly understandable in 2 hours, but it will help gain awareness of the different types of games out there. It will show how little you know, and give hints of where to go from there. BUT THAT'S ASKING TOO MUCH!
 

Keldryn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
1,053
Location
Vancouver, Canada
It will only get worse, especially with apologists like Boyd saying that "games take too much time"... I bet every student in those classes has a multiplayer game that they really love - like DOTA, LOL, TF2, Callofiduty - with hundreds of hours logged in. Take a decent "Top 100 games of all time" list and play 2 hours of each game - that's 200 hours, less than what some biodrones spent on Dragon Age: Inquisition in the last couple of months.
Sure, not every game will be perfectly understandable in 2 hours, but it will help gain awareness of the different types of games out there. It will show how little you know, and give hints of where to go from there. BUT THAT'S ASKING TOO MUCH!

You don't even have to do that much. Even 3 or 4 games of each "generation" would be a good start and a damn sight better than the current situation. I remember talking to one of those classmates (the one who I got hired with at Rockstar) about Ultima VII and I managed to pique his interest. We had been talking about how we might make use of background NPCs in our levels, and I mentioned how U7 implemented these detailed shedules for every NPC in the game and how the illusion of characters going about their daily lives really contributed to the feel of the game (and it was done way back in 1992). I got the (then) current version of Exult, all the game data files off my Complete Ultima VII CD, plus all of the digital sound files, made sure everything was configured correcting in the exult.cfg file, and burned it onto a CD for him. I also lent him the map and manual from the Complete U7 box. He never played it. All he had to do was copy the files off the CD into a folder on his hard disk. I made sure that it would work without having to mess around with anything. At least I got my map and manual back.

And speaking of ignorance of history, at one point we got a new art director on the game, and he decided that all buildings and interiors need to have dimensions that would be accurate in the real world. A couple of us on the design team explained that you need to build them larger than they would be in the real world so that it doesn't feel cramped to the player, so that the characters don't get stuck on the level geometry, and so that the camera doesn't keep running into the ceiling and walls (being a 3rd-person over-the-shoulder game). That didn't matter to him, nor did pointing out articles and post mortems from the developers of other games (such as Deus Ex) where they fucking said that they had to build the interiors about 1.25 to 1.5 times larger (I think that was the ratio) in order for the game to function properly and even for it to "feel" right to the player. After a shitload of work adapting the existing levels (still using simple prototype geometry, thankfully), he determined that the realistic dimensions wouldn't work after all.

So being aware of what the developers who came before you had to deal with is also important. Sure, it's possible that you will be the one to come up with a brilliant solution to a previously insurmountable problem. Most likely, you'll realize that those "morons" actually put far more thought into a solution than you did.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom