[LP CYOA] 傳

[Nevill]

The prince gave us a mission and provided us with the means of completing it. It is up to us to decide whether there is a better way to do it.

Us being loyal does not mean we can't have an opinion of our own.

 

[Azira]

The prince also mentioned that he had to call in a lot of favours and pull a lot of strings.

What I'm getting at is that choosing E here should not be done lightly.

 

[Nevill]

The prince also mentioned that he had to call in a lot of favours and pull a lot of strings.

To bail us out, not to get the letter. And we are going to carry out his order. We are just being creative.

 

[treave]

In character justification would be that you could always try to use it later, and that you think you would be more effective by working outside the sects.

Of course, every other argument made here still stands, that's just what the character thinks should you pick E.

.
Pragmatic in a fighting sense. Me, I don't find the cynical outlook of a Goat Adjutant all that amusing.

Well, in wuxia fiction you usually find cynicism (if not outright contempt) towards the pugilistic world's ideals as one of the common traits of unorthodox characters. Spend enough time on the outside of the system, or get driven out, and that sort of outlook will naturally develop.

You seem to be looking for a specific sort of character though. Pragmatic idealist that balances everything in his approach?

 

[LWC1996]

Can you imagine what happens to teenagers who have no street smarts at all out in the world alone? Bad things happen to them. They get bullied, they get conned, or they get killed.

Getting bullied I wouldn't worry about - our tiger has fangs and is not afraid to show them, and besides, no bullying compares to what we've already been through. Getting killed - might as well get used to the risk, this being wuxia and all. What I am most afraid of is indeed being tricked into doing something shady up until the point where there would be no easy way out. Our character, after all, is pretty simple-minded.

Well that's the whole problem, Jing is a 14 year old hormonal kid who has been brought up in the palace. Kid is prideful and hotheaded as a 14 year old kid can be, and his opponents are definitely way more street smart than him. He would definitely come to a bad end seeing as he's the type that cannot bear to lose to anyone. If he had more substance rather than hot air, I wouldn't be worried about choosing E for him.

We can assume that Shun would send his bro out into world with a bagful of money, but, what happens if he loses his money? Pick-pocketed, or robbed, or even cheated by some con woman? Is he going to work as a dishwasher in the local inn? or beg on the street corner? He's too prideful to do that. Is he going to steal food to survive? Isn't he way toooooo honorable and honest to do that? Being well-brought up and all that? Remember how ticked off he was when he thought his match with Yunxi was rigged. Kid is oozing fairplay from every pore.

To learn all these specialized moves, one really has to put in effort and time to master it. Jing is not some child prodigy, and what makes anyone here think that he will encounter a nice hermit who will have noble intentions taking the kid in? There are bad people in this world, more so in the complicated unstable wuxia world. There is no easy way to mastering moves in the wuxia world. There's always the shortcut of stealing the sacred kungfu books of the sect(s) itself... Pointless though if one does not master the basics.

My concerns exactly. But considering the genre, there is ALWAYS a lone old master who will teach us a powerful, forbidden technique. It is only a matter of finding him.

The way I see it, it breaks down to this:
B - playing it safe
E - high risk, unknown rewards, interesting narrative

Yes, there is ALWAYS a lone old master (if he is a wuxia master, he's most probably a heretic. Heretics usually mean he lost control of his inner energy and he's gone cuckoo, violent, OR his kungfu is deemed to be too unorthodox) to teach you, but do you think they do it for free? You would still have to be apprenticed to him, follow his rules and strict obedience if he is going to teach you his martial arts. And Jing would still have to give up a few years of his life to learn it. Orthodox sect or not, these master-student relationship is not taken lightly. What your master says, goes. Menial tasks for your master is part and parcel of it. Isn't this what you wanted to avoid in the first place by nixing the orthodox sect?

In the wuxia world, the experienced ones can always tell what sect you belong to by your kung fu....and if you even give out the slightest whiff of non-orthodox - whether it's friendship, master, kungfu, they will give you the side-eye and if you ever need to get into the orthodox sect, it will be almost impossible because of your non-orthodox taint. You will be shunned. How are you going to undertake Shun's mission instruction if you're locked out of the orthodox sect, so to speak?

 

[Bloodshifter]

C>B>E

The lady was a former slave/spurred lover and a survivor of an attack involving fire.

 

[Kashmir Slippers]

I am willing to switch to B.

I just don't think that E is a good choice right now. The Prince told us to do him a favor. There isn't a big chance that we will find what we are looking for by just wandering around. While it is possible that we happen to stumble upon the correct thing right off the bat, it seems much more likely that we waste a lot of time before we get anywhere.

As for the unorthodoxy. I think we should at least get a base in an established, useful fighting style than trying to make one from scratch. Nothing is stopping us from trying to make new moves or trying out own thing later, but seeing as the Prince is telling us to infiltrate the pugilistic world to find information, it seems stupid to make the vast majority of our potential targets look down on us and not trust us from the get go. We are brash, but not stupid and loyal above all else. We have already done a really dumb thing in letting the Prince get hurt in our fight, so we should try to tow the line a bit and see if we can win back some favor and give him a reason to pardon us.

 

[Tigranes]

B.

This isn't Disney and we won't meet the evil dudes that easily, and I think everyone underestimates what kind of imprint unorthodoxy can have in this kind of setting. It's not a Western knight novel where being a bit off your rocker is all OK because it's just like A Knight's Tale (yes, that terrible abomination from a historical perspective, which is my point).

Consider: the ability to act cunningly and in unorthodox ways is something every orthodox-trained fighter possesses; the ability to act orthodox and reap its benefits is something no unorthodox-trained fighter will have.

 

[Nevill]

You seem to be looking for a specific sort of character though. Pragmatic idealist that balances everything in his approach?

Pragmatic in a way he fights, idealistic in a sense of what he fights for, yes. Basically, this:

I'm thinking of an honourable but independent ronin helping the downtrodden or a something similar (and a secret agent of the Prince of course)

It is a good thing we had to leave the Palace - it is not our forte, as Huluzi said, and sooner or later we would be run over because of our reluctance to squash some innocent shmoe on our way to the top. Goat Adjutant, on the other hand, wouldn't have had the problem with that by the sound of it.

We have already done a really dumb thing in letting the Prince get hurt in our fight, so we should try to tow the line a bit and see if we can win back some favor and give him a reason to pardon us.

We never lost favor with the prince. He trusts us like nobody else, and will pardon us the moment he ascends the throne. And winning favours with the rest of the palace clique is meaningless.

 

[treave]

Pragmatic in a way he fights, idealistic in a sense of what he fights for, yes. Basically, this:

It is a good thing we had to leave the Palace - it is not our forte, as Huluzi said, and sooner or later we would be run over because of our reluctance to squash some innocent shmoe on our way to the top. Goat Adjutant, on the other hand, wouldn't have had the problem with that by the sound of it.

Hm, this is worth exploring further. I should be able to make the boundaries between orthodox and unorthodox clearer with these examples.

Assuming that his ideals are to protect the weak and fight evil... How far would that pragmatism extend? Would he be willing to poison an evil, during bandit beyond his ability to defeat by force of arms, for example? Would he assassinate a corrupt but court-appointed magistrate who is oppressing the populace? Would he take an extremely powerful villain's daughter hostage as bait for a trap, though he means the girl no harm? Will he go for weak points like the eyes and crotches in battle? Is he willing to ambush, to sneak, to fight without giving the other a fair chance?

All of these actions would be considered unorthodox. Any orthodox character seen attempting these would be rebuked. Repeat offenders would become considered unorthodox, regardless of their ideals.

Uh, also I don't think being cynical and skeptical of people automatically makes you a cold-hearted plot-loving power-hungry dick who will sacrifice everything on the altar of loyalty or power or whatever it is that's in vogue for the discerning schemer. Diogenes (the Cynic) didn't try to manipulate his way to the top of Athens. Neither did he make a habit of kicking kittens, as far as I know.

 

[Nevill]

Well that's the whole problem, Jing is a 14 year old hormonal kid who has been brought up in the palace. Kid is prideful and hotheaded as a 14 year old kid can be, and his opponents are definitely way more street smart than him. He would definitely come to a bad end seeing as he's the type that cannot bear to lose to anyone. If he had more substance rather than hot air, I wouldn't be worried about choosing E for him.

I know, I know. You are absolutely correct. But I am still willing to risk it. We have some control over his decisions, after all.

Yes, there is ALWAYS a lone old master (if he is a wuxia master, he's most probably a heretic. Heretics usually mean he lost control of his inner energy and he's gone cuckoo, violent, OR his kungfu is deemed to be too unorthodox) to teach you, but do you think they do it for free? You would still have to be apprenticed to him, follow his rules and strict obedience if he is going to teach you his martial arts. And Jing would still have to give up a few years of his life to learn it. Orthodox sect or not, these master-student relationship is not taken lightly. What your master says, goes. Menial tasks for your master is part and parcel of it. Isn't this what you wanted to avoid in the first place by nixing the orthodox sect?

Not exactly. I wanted to avoid being indebted to some sect. They guard their secrets closely and would not let us out easily, yet we will need to leave in 4-6 years at most. With the current setup, we are free to go whenever we wish. Does not mean we can come back, obviously.

Training involves hard work and obedience - there is no way around that wherever you go.

In the wuxia world, the experienced ones can always tell what sect you belong to by your kung fu....and if you even give out the slightest whiff of non-orthodox - whether it's friendship, master, kungfu, they will give you the side-eye and if you ever need to get into the orthodox sect, it will be almost impossible because of your non-orthodox taint. You will be shunned. How are you going to undertake Shun's mission instruction if you're locked out of the orthodox sect, so to speak?

Not by infiltrating them from the inside, that much is clear. Still, the orthodox world is a tight and cramped place, and the outside world is much bigger. I am sure opportunities to learn information one way or the other will present themselves if we actively seek them out. The assassin the prince was worried about did not belong to an orthodox sect either.

Uh, also I don't think being cynical and skeptical of people automatically makes you a plotting power-hungry dick who will sacrifice everything on the altar of loyalty or power or whatever it is that's in vogue for the discerning schemer.

What does it matter to a cynic if some unlucky shmuck suffers in his wake? Such is the nature of the world. He may not be power hungry, but he has no reason to be compassionate.

Assuming that his ideals are to protect the weak and fight evil... How far would that pragmatism extend? Would he be willing to poison an evil, during bandit beyond his ability to defeat by force of arms, for example? Would he assassinate a corrupt but court-appointed magistrate who is oppressing the populace? Would he take an extremely powerful villain's daughter hostage as bait for a trap, though he means the girl no harm? Will he go for weak points like the eyes and crotches in battle?

Pretty far, if the situation warrants it. Yes. Highly probable (though will assasination change anything? such matters are rarely settled by fighting). Possibly (too many factors to list). Yes (though, as I said, I don't want to maim people casually).

 

[treave]

Why would a cynic care to climb to the top of an institution he distrusts, let alone sacrifice others in a climb he likely sees as pointless?

 

[Nevill]

Why would a cynic care to climb to the top of an institution he distrusts, let alone sacrifice others in his climb?

I said that he may not be power hungry and might not have any desire to move up the ladder. But he does not want to find himself at the bottom either, because the bottom is in the pigsty. And there would be plenty of those who would gently push us towards this direction, given that we have so much influence on a crown prince. He would have to struggle just to keep himself afloat. And some bystanders are bound to be caught in the midst of it all.

Besides, we are (were) the prince's right-hand man. Does not get much closer to the top than that.

Perhaps "on our way to the top" was the wrong way to phrase it. I meant that there are many who would want to manipulate the prince, and thus would desire to get rid of us. Jing does not sound like he is cut for these sort of fights, but a Goat Adjutant would be impassionate enough to maneuver through the minefield, and would not pay much heed to human sacrifices.

All of these actions would be considered unorthodox. Any orthodox character seen attempting these would be rebuked. Repeat offenders would become considered unorthodox, regardless of their ideals.

This is one of the reasons I am going with E.

 

[treave]

I said that he may not be power hungry and might not have any desire to move up the ladder. But he does not want to find himself at the bottom either, because the bottom is in the pigsty. And there would be plenty of those who would gently push us towards this direction, given that we have so much influence on a crown prince. He would have to struggle just to keep himself afloat. And some bystanders are bound to be caught in the midst of it all.

Besides, we are (were) the prince's right-hand man. Does not go much closer to the top than that.

Well, given that this is a CYOA, the Codex votes as it wishes. The behavior I said above may not apply at all. Had we played the goat, there is also nothing stopping voters from attempting to do the best they can by others. Making a cynic lose some cynicism is possible after all, and is yet another type of story. Perhaps a heart-warming one.

Just like with the Tiger and his recklessness. A character that only has one type of response to occurrences may be entertaining, but things don't have to be that way if the voters find it undesirable.

I will try to allow the choices to shape the character even if he may not start off as a blank slate.

 

[Nevill]

Hm, well, it started with sacrificing innocents on the way to the top. Dropping to the bottom could be another matter, though I find it unlikely that a cynical person so jaded that he accepts his horrible luck as a fundamental law of his life will resist a gradual slide into insignificance in a palace he dislikes with any amount of fervour.

I don't find climbing to the top and staying at the top all that different, really. Either way, there are bound to be casualties - court intrigues spare no one, as Huluzi may attest to.

And as long as the Adjutant is loyal to the prince, he would want to advise him. As long as he advises him, he is significant. I doubt there is an easy way out of this.

I will try to allow the choices to shape the character even if he may not start off as a blank slate.

I know. This is one of my greatest fears with E.

 

[treave]

If the guy is a cynic that cares for no one except possibly the prince, what other innocent could they use as leverage in their games? They would know his personality, that he doesn't give a shit about most people. They would know he wouldn't care. Why do they try it to pull him down, then? I'm assuming you're imagining something along the lines of save the innocent and lose something. The people who set up the trap must be somehow convinced he cares enough to fall for it.

Now, if he cared for someone enough that they think it'd work, then he is no longer such a total cynic and can safely make a selfless choice without being out of character, no?

I mean, assuming the guy isn't the one preparing the plot in the first place. But if that's the case all the blame lies on the Codex for choosing to do so.

 

[Baltika9]

Uh, question: how will anyone know Jing is in fact The Adjutant? Did Shun go around introducing his bro to the whole of China, down to the last robber and beggar? I just don't see how they'd know.

 

[treave]

Uh, question: how will anyone know Jing is in fact The Adjutant? Did Shun go around introducing his bro to the whole of China, down to the last robber and beggar? I just don't see how they'd know.

Uh, how'd they know? I mean, I don't see where this issue crops up. Not even the sects would be aware. Well, most of them. But he is carrying that admission letter. It could give something away. Should they know how to read.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm sorry, but it just seems like you come up with all these reasons not to vote/think the way you do, then you push them aside with some thoughts and predictions which have far, far less substance. E.g. the idea that we would be stuck to a sect like a dog on a leash after 4-6 years is clearly not the way this LP will go and treave has already hinted as such. You perceive all the disadvantages to being unorthodox then say you want to try it because at least we can still make some decisions - well with that argument choosing anything would work. I'm also skeptical about the argument that an unorthodox life is better in every way significantly than the orthodox for information, because sometimes you need to run in more orthodox circles to get close to things and learn stuff. There are going to be informational pros and cons to both sides.

And yeah, all the stuff about the Prince and our nature as Adjutant should probably take a back seat for the next little while, what's important in this decision is how we want to start making our way in the world. And going straight to banditry and weirdos is not my cup of tea given the reason I stated above: orthodox men can always resort to individual unorthodox acts, unorthodox men can never reclaim the instruments of orthodoxy.

 

[Nevill]

One thing though, if the guy is a cynic that cares for no one except possibly the prince, what other innocent could they use as leverage in their games? They would know his personality. They would know he wouldn't care. Why do they try it to pull him down, then? I'm assuming you're imagining something along the lines of save the innocent and lose something. The people who set up the trap must be somehow convinced he cares enough to fall for it.

I was thinking more about shifting the blame onto someone if you are framed for something and you have no way to prove your innocence. Let someone else take the fall. Use someone as your unwitting pawn or lose something. There are many ways to screw unsuspecting people over.

Uh, question: how will anyone know Jing is in fact The Adjutant? Did Shun go around introducing his bro to the whole of China, down to the last robber and beggar? I just don't see how they'd know.

Where does this question come from? Who is stating otherwise?

 

[treave]

I was thinking more about shifting the blame onto someone if you are framed for something and you have no way to prove your innocence. Let someone else take the fall. Use someone as your unwitting pawn or lose something. There are many ways to screw unsuspecting people over.

Well, that will definitely be a conscious choice by the voters. The Tiger will encounter similar dilemmas too, especially if he wants to be pragmatic. So if it comes back to the question: is the Goat Adjutant going to actively sacrifice people to save his own skin, the answer has to be, ask the Codex, they're the ones who will pick. I can think of excuses why a cynic might not bother, and you can do the same for why he would, but I figure arguing over the Goat further doesn't give any insights for the current choice.

 

[Nevill]

I'm sorry, but it just seems like you come up with all these reasons not to vote/think the way you do, then you push them aside with some thoughts and predictions which have far, far less substance.

B is playing it safe. There are reasons for that.
E is taking a risk. What reasons you expect behind taking a gamble? You either do, or you don't.
Personally, I am fine with either.

E.g. the idea that we would be stuck to a sect like a dog on a leash after 4-6 years is clearly not the way this LP will go and treave has already hinted as such.

You missed "at most". Obviously, we might leave much sooner. That actually makes the argument MORE, rather then LESS, convincing. And treave implied that leaving a sect won't be trivial.

You perceive all the disadvantages to being unorthodox then say you want to try it because at least we can still make some decisions - well with that argument choosing anything would work.

We are not in a do or die situation right now. We choose how to develop our character. Anything WILL work.

Well, that will definitely be a conscious choice by the voters. The Tiger will encounter similar dilemmas too, especially if he wants to be pragmatic.

When the choice is "sacrifice an innocent, or BAD END" (shift the false blame or accept the blame and go down the ladder), it isn't much of a choice. Not that you do it often, though I raged hard when the Earth was reduced to ashes over Senya's refusal to compromise his integrity, even in a virtual environment. Granted, that wasn't a BAD END, which made it even worse.

 

[Tigranes]

What reasons you expect behind taking a gamble? You either do, or you don't.

Huh? Anyone who gambles without a reason is no more than a madman. You take a gamble when it's worth it by whatever means of calculation. It just seems to me that many E-votes are coming from "We wanna be cool ronin style free do-whatever drunken fightah boom shit yeah". Not that 'cool' is a bad reason for a vote in a Codex CYOA, but I'd personally prefer we experience some orthodox life too before going full EXTREME.

Anyway, yeah, if your point is that we should just choose whatever we think is coolest, then I've said my piece and so have you. We'll see how the votes fall.

 

[Baltika9]

Just got confused in all this goat-talk, I thought Nevill was saying the the Adjutant will be in danger of being taken advantage of by unsavory types because he's the Prince's confidante. Which begged the question"how would they know? Anyway, back to the real argument.

E.g. the idea that we would be stuck to a sect like a dog on a leash after 4-6 years is clearly not the way this LP will go and treave has already hinted as such.

As for being stuck with the sect you choose, I wouldn't worry too much about not having the freedom to wander. You get some leeway after a couple years. All the senior students do. Of course, E will give you a wider view of the world from the start.

And there you go, we will be confined to a monastery until the Master thinks we're mature enough to wander by ourselves. Here's what we'll encounter in a monastery: youngs r-tards like us that don't know any better, mid-rung students jockeying for their Master's favor and one-upping their competition, and senior students that honestly just want to GTFO and do their own shit for a while. And "The Master" who minds his own business and the prosperity of his school, and really shouldn't be displeased. If we're lucky, we'll get the hands-on type. Honestly, I think there's better stuff to do than train under a system's yoke and deal with Student Kwan-Fhat smuggling in sweets against policy and Student Wang getting frisky with the local maids in his times out.

Huh? Anyone who gambles without a reason is no more than a madman. You take a gamble when it's worth it by whatever means of calculation. It just seems to me that many E-votes are coming from "We wanna be cool ronin style free do-whatever drunken fightah boom shit yeah". Not that 'cool' is a bad reason for a vote in a Codex CYOA, but I'd personally prefer we experience some orthodox life too before going full EXTREME.

Oh Tigranes, you surly old goat, you.
Actually, not quite

Not really, no. The problem is that you may only be able to pick up one or two orthodox techniques easily from wandering pugilists. Most of what you learn will probably be unorthodox, given that you aren't in a proper school. This means that your fighting style will reflect that, and the moment you begin building your reputation, you will be regarded as unorthodox. Not to mention the people you hang out with will be unorthodox, and as a fourteen year old, you can be impressionable. I figure it will take a few chapters of non-stop do-gooding to demonstrate that you are a straightforward, upright fella. And no snarking to the orthodox sect people, always proper respect.

It will be much harder to get an orthodox reputation if you don't join a sect and follow their rules. If you do, you can just coast on their reputation since, for example, when people see Wudang disciples, they expect them to be rather stand-up folks.

Both sides have the other open to them. In fact, we can always use the letter to get into a monastery later, if we feel the need to. It's just that we can't really fight creatively without being unorthodox, all of this

Assuming that his ideals are to protect the weak and fight evil... How far would that pragmatism extend? Would he be willing to poison an evil, during bandit beyond his ability to defeat by force of arms, for example? Would he assassinate a corrupt but court-appointed magistrate who is oppressing the populace? Would he take an extremely powerful villain's daughter hostage as bait for a trap, though he means the girl no harm? Will he go for weak points like the eyes and crotches in battle? Is he willing to ambush, to sneak, to fight without giving the other a fair chance?

All of these actions would be considered unorthodox. Any orthodox character seen attempting these would be rebuked. Repeat offenders would become considered unorthodox, regardless of their ideals.

is unorthodox, why deny ourselves an advantage like that in the future? And I'm not arguing for E to get 'sploshuns an' sheeit, it's the fact that we'll have to adventure around the world, meet interesting characters, investigate shit on our own and track down our techniques on our own is what really attracts me. I don't need a stinkin' quest compass, thank you very much.
Think of us as being an government agent with carte blanche to act as we will, as long as it is within the interests of the state in the long run, except we're completely on our own.

I just don't think that E is a good choice right now. The Prince told us to do him a favor. There isn't a big chance that we will find what we are looking for by just wandering around. While it is possible that we happen to stumble upon the correct thing right off the bat, it seems much more likely that we waste a lot of time before we get anywhere.

Dude, the orthodox sects that have an understanding with the court aren't the enemy here, it's their unorthodox counterparts that are, and even then, not all of them.

Well that's the whole problem, Jing is a 14 year old hormonal kid who has been brought up in the palace. Kid is prideful and hotheaded as a 14 year old kid can be, and his opponents are definitely way more street smart than him. He would definitely come to a bad end seeing as he's the type that cannot bear to lose to anyone. If he had more substance rather than hot air, I wouldn't be worried about choosing E for him.

We can assume that Shun would send his bro out into world with a bagful of money, but, what happens if he loses his money? Pick-pocketed, or robbed, or even cheated by some con woman? Is he going to work as a dishwasher in the local inn? or beg on the street corner? He's too prideful to do that. Is he going to steal food to survive? Isn't he way toooooo honorable and honest to do that? Being well-brought up and all that? Remember how ticked off he was when he thought his match with Yunxi was rigged. Kid is oozing fairplay from every pore.

You're really not accounting for one thing here, bro: this is a treave LP, we ultimately have the authority on how our character develops. treave always gives us the opportunity to change him, it's up to us to decide whether or not we want to and how to change him (which is why I participate in his LPs in the first place). Not street-smart enough? Teach him some, through experience. Too honorable for your tastes? Act with more cunning (I'm not going for poisons, though, that's not my cup of tea).

but how can we decide which ones will have the best synergy if we don't have something to synergize with?

Well, we do have stealth already, we can start with that as our base and add things on from there.

Edit: He is getting off very lightly for dereliction of duty, to be fair. He returned expecting torture and ultimately death. Servants have been killed outright for lesser reasons. His nature have combined with his upbringing to create a personality that will break the rules to do what he thinks is right yet kneel and accept the punishment willingly for breaking said rules.

A promising masochist, in other words.

Yeah, I want to break him out of that. Loyalty and TRUE BRO are all well and good, but self flagellation isn't.

 

[Tigranes]

Oh Tigranes, you surly old goat, you.

Why, thank you. I've held a love of goats ever since I was a young lad, when I chanced across: