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Let's Play VtM: Night Empire

a cut of domestic sheep prime

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AA

Guys, B for the first choice leaves Tony totally unprotected. No matter what, Tony needs either Cripps or Vogler or both nearby or else someone will probably sneak up and take him down while they are busy.

edit: Oh, and the malk is a waste of time. IIRC, last time someone (Turkov) tried to strike a deal with her, she screwed up the plan on a whim.
 

laclongquan

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YO yo~ Turcov is a dumb Ventrue, that's what it prove. He got out of Russia's coming Time of Trouble way ahead. Sure, the spectacular failure of his plan is awesome to behold, but its basic premise is flawed in nature. The conflicts were reaching crescendo that I see no way Kindreds can fix them. Even assassinating Lenin and other leaders of Bolshevik would just exacerbate the problems. Let's assume that his plan come true and he was coming to be Tsar family's advisor... Well oops, top of the list MOST WANTED DEAD.

He is too dumb to see how profitable he come out of a Malk deal. Anthony Sommers, on the other hand, is not so. He like his existence, so he certainly will agree that Live to scheme another day is a desirable outcome of that situation. And he has certainly made full use of opportunities Malkavian madness threw his way.
 

oscar

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NZ
A - Overcoming (or addressing) cowardice seems pretty important for Anthony's psyche and humanity
A - As said, this is a direct threat to us. The others are only broad threats to the Camarilla.
 

Storyfag

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B is potential friendly high level ally, considering our past experience with Malk.

By Caine, you are retarded. Or simply merely alien. Considering our past experience with Malkavians, we should be extremely happy if she won't begrudge us Donnie's death. She might know more of our role in it than anyone else... or she might not. That's the danger of trafficking with Malks.
 

Smashing Axe

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Divinity: Original Sin
Agreed with Oscar. If we don't deal with Mandrake, we may even become a target for these hunters. Direct threats first.

As someone mentioned before, turning the hunters against the Sabbat would be pretty amazing. Operate through kine contacts? After locating both the bases of the Sabbat and Hunters, capture one of their order, dominate/ghoul him, and feed him with information about Sabbat vampires. Continue to use him as an agent to feed info about more Sabbat locations, perhaps keeping Archon appraised of our actions. Is the Society of Leopold at all aware of the intricasies of vampire society, or do they approach them as the stereotypical evil hollywood vampire?
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

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Is the Society of Leopold at all aware of the intricasies of vampire society, or do they approach them as the stereotypical evil hollywood vampire?
That depends of their rank within the organization. Most are the equivalent of Sabbat shovelheads, others know a lot through "saved" ex-ghouls and kindred that are kept captive (under constant torture, bad part of being immortal). Either way, don't understimate them, they're very good at killing vampires.
 

laclongquan

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B is potential friendly high level ally, considering our past experience with Malk.

By Caine, you are retarded. Or simply merely alien. Considering our past experience with Malkavians, we should be extremely happy if she won't begrudge us Donnie's death. She might know more of our role in it than anyone else... or she might not. That's the danger of trafficking with Malks.

You sure you dont have a drop of Malkavian blood in your vein? What was Donnie to her? He's an US Kindred, she's on this side of ocean. For another, Donnie went into that ambush with willing heart and minds. He himself planned and excuted our near death experience. He has noone to blame for his result.
 

CappenVarra

phase-based phantasmist
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I have one word for you: Malkavian Madness Network (yes it's one word in malk logic). You never know what a Malk knows or doesn't know, that's the whole point. But whatever, I think we will visit the Pell Mell Queen, just not yet - we have more pressing concerns to take care of, and running to grab the hem of her bloodied skirt as soon as she shows up in town is not an option. She's a potentially useful tool, and will be approached as such, not a damn panacea that will make the bad hunters/sabbat/rival barons go away by malk magic in space...

Shovelheads are simple. A) would go a long way towards Anthony being less of a "better part of valor" guy, and has character development potential. However, it's not the kind of character development we want. As far as letting Vogler do it, that's stupid as well. If he wants to be Prince (and not a Sheriff or a Scourge), he needs to learn to behave less like a grunt and more like a power you do not fuck with. And that's taking into account that we don't really want him to be the bestest prince ever - a guy who runs after random shovelheads with saliva running down his lolling tongue can forget princedom and go hunt lupines with suicidal Lasombra. Cripps is the only one we can afford to send, and I might be willing to send him alone - a few shovelheads shouldn't bother him, or he has no business being our bodyguard. And finally, what is the point of capturing a shovelhead or ten? Do you think they really know anything valuable, useful or non-retarded? And if they do, it's not just a bunch of sabbatards but a trap, and one only a blind Brujah would fall into. So, except for random bonding with present company and a chance to boost our manly, rugged and completely non-cowardly ego, the situation has no gains worth pursuing - and it has a nice truckload of possible losses involved.

Second choice is more complicated, but as has been noted, Mandrake is the most direct threat to Anthony individually. And of course it's all related and ties in nicely - Mandrake is heavily hinted to be a prank by our fellow barons, but it's also a Masquerade leak and Hunter-magnet. By taking it on, we're working all three threat angles at the same time. And, it could give us a nice angle to use in solving all three of them. The way to take care of such a leak is to find out who is pulling the strings and turning the pointy end of their own asset against them. It doesn't matter if a fucktard baron is feeding Mandrake info to get back at Anthony for having had worn a more tasteful tie at that one Camarilla hug session or whatever - a newspaper publishing whatever info an unquestionable higher-up tells them is an asset we could use - with just a bit of redirection, we can turn Mandrake into a laser sight pointing Huntards and other assorted troubles at targets of our choosing (instead of us). Without any untoward Masquerade breaches, and with a gentlemanly restraint, of course.

The Huntards could be straight i.e. the voices told them to kill the big bad monsters, and the Archon just happens to be the biggest monster they could see from under their beds - so they decided to follow him. If this is the case, if they happen to cross paths with Sabbat, they will gladly take a break from Archon-stalking and cleanse the big bad monsters in front of them - say what you will about Sabbat, but they make convenient and obvious monsters, and straight Hunters will stick to them like flies - if they are given the opportunity. And if some of them are Martyrs or whatever, it is still preferable that they attempt to hug and understand the Sabbat instead of wasting our time. On the other hand, the Church is Lasombra country, and a smart elder who could pull their strings without them realizing it... would be a bro worth diablerizing. Either way, the way to deal with them is to find out more and pull their strings, not head-on confrontation. Also, if the Inner Circle is not pleased at London at the moment, imagine the joy they will feel if the Archon somehow manages to get himself ashed in our city. Doesn't it warm the very cockles of your heart?

P.S. headache, cannot be bothered to edit post to comprehensibility.
 

laclongquan

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That is because you need to learn to love shorter paragraphs.

One, the shovelheads.
--C is safe but nonprofit and potentially very embarrassing. Some shovelheads put graffiti on the fucking wall of our fucking residence and we let SOME of them live? I know, Anthony can afford to ignore the sniggers, though it would do damage to our standing. BUT Vogler can afford nothing of the sort. He's not the most favored candicate, so he need all the reputation he can get (if we want to lower his, it can wait after he's Prince).
--And as Lambchop19 said B is most dangerous as he stays alone, easy target.
--But the biggest reason for A is that we do want to do job properly, so we use full force at that moment. No use standing back. Beside, it's just some shovelheads. Anthony is not that big a pussy to let them get away with this bullshit. He's a big pussy, yeah, but not that big.

Two, on the newspaper, okay, CappenVarra . You sold me on A. Solve the Threats, Trace the Backer, AND capture a new media tool. Fuck yeah.

Official Vote: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA====AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

EDIT: and if we get caught at the office by Scotland Yard I can only say greed do us in.
 

Esquilax

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laclongquan: Huh? People will laugh at us because some kids sprayed graffiti on our wall? Nobody gives a fuck about that, dude. Shovelheads gonna shovelhead and all that.

Yeah so maybe we should have done something about the Sabbath huh Esquilax?

I stand by that decision - and as I mentioned before, we knew that they were going to come after us in retribution for Angelos sooner or later. They aren't bold enough at this stage to attack us at our home, so they're trying to draw Anthony out. Basically, I see this going one of two ways:

1) We capture a shovelhead and whatever info they give is useless. If they're halfway competent, whoever Embraced these guys isn't going to be peeking their heads out and giving these guys any info that can be traced back to them with much certainty. If they're just a bunch of dickheads that decided it would be a good idea to attack a Baron deep in Cammie territory, then they don't have any info that's worth knowing.
2) It turns out to be an ambush and these shovelheads are more dangerous than they appear. Perhaps unlikely, but possible. The potential for something really bad happening (i.e. getting captured, Cripps dying and us being left without a bodyguard) is obvious.

If they eventually get bolder and attack is in our own home, that's what we have our secret entrance for. Hopefully by then we'll have a few nasty surprises set up for our would-be assassins by then too (we have to start thinking about fortifying Witanhurst/setting up a mithraeum soon). And if the Sabbat organize a force that is powerful enough to attack us in our own homes, then those Kindred will definitely be able to give us something useful. As I've stated before, our plan with the Sabbat should be for them to reveal themselves to us, not the other way around. All we've got here are a bunch of expendable footsoldiers.

Anyways, I think that the people voting for A are getting greedy here and they think that they can get a big score with a minimal amount of effort. Yeah, sure, sometimes that's possible, but I highly doubt that this is the case here. Just as importantly, attacking random shovelheads is not the way that a Prince is to conduct himself. Vogler impressed me in his interaction with the Archon, but seriously - we have to tell him to knock this shit off.

I'm all for character development and getting Anthony to be a more manly bro, but I just don't see this situation having much in the way of practical benefit. If character development is your reasoning for voting A, as oscar did, then that's cool and it makes sense, but I don't think we're going to get anything more than that out of it. Maybe a little bit of respect from Cripps who probably wouldn't have expected us to get our hands dirty.

tl;dr If you vote for A, vote for character development reasons, not for a potential info gold mine. I doubt we're getting shit from these shovelheads.

As for the second choice, I'm down for getting to the bottom of this Mandrake business. Yes, it could be a red herring, but it's a possible red herring that could be used to embarrass and discredit us in front of the Archon. If this is Turcov's ploy, then he knows that he can make us look foolish by using Mandrake against us. If we can't show that it's a hoax, we're in deep shit.

Alternatively, if it's a journalist who is too snoopy for his own good - well, we've just found ourselves a very useful new ghoul who is a great potential information network. If it's just an average Joe, then it's likely Hunters have also read his column for any possible leads on local vampires. If we can subvert Mandrake, it will be a cunning way of using our enemy's own information sources against them.

Lastly, there is also the possibility that Mandrake is a Hunter or in the employ of Hunters himself. The fact that the article was authorized by the editor seems to indicate that Mandrake at least has some sort of pull that would be inconsistent with him being an "average Joe". If that's the case, then we've found an excellent lead to the Hunters that we would have been looking for in D regardless.

That being said, A is definitely riskier than D. With D, we know for sure that we're making progress on determining the Hunter threat. With A, we don't quite know whether we're wasting our time on a red herring, or if it'll turn out to be extremely useful.

C) Return to the estate. The shovelheads won’t be able to hang around much longer before dawn.
A) Contact the editor of the paper that ran the Mandrake story.
 

laclongquan

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Well yeah. Chasing Sabbat with full force to accomplish several reasons, not just for gather Sabbat info (but I still hope for that, by the way). Vogler and Cribbs bonding. Do the job properly. Hope for char development, though the hope is small, not as good as intel. Pay back.

But, i dont think Mandrake pushed by Hunters. Doesnt seem their style. They would have strike directly at Sommers, him being the least conspicuous person they can interrogate, during one of his forays into Whitehall or charity ball. This seems like a standard "shaking the tree to see what falls down" modern tactic by a Scotland Yard detective, not authorized by official authority. IF they are official sanctioned there would be more footprints than this and Horn could have discovered.
 

Random Word

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MCA Project: Eternity
Perhaps the rogue Metro Detective is using the mysterious powers of the VASE - recovered from the trash and taped back together - to control the editor?
 
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Project: Eternity
Even though I have been endorsing reactive actions lately, I am not really comfortable with how passive Anthony is being. Certainly Anthony has proven himself to be the master of the defensive game while he prepares for the fatal thrust, but atm he seems to be just reacting without having an overarching plan.

In the short term, let’s talk about these shovelheads. I see them as one of three things:

a) A ploy designed to test our defenses. In that case the best reaction is to not react at all. They are not a threat, and we would keep our true strength hidden.
b) The witting or unwitting bait to a trap. In this case, leaving them alone is also a wise plan since chasing after them, in whole or part, would be falling into their trap.
c) They are shovelheads being shovelheads. In this case chasing after them will our team a chance to flex our muscles and perhaps build a bit of character or street cred by capturing/destroying some Sabbat.

This makes the wisest short term play to leave them alone, since chasing after them gives little real benefit and has some reasonably serious risks, and besides, engaging in a foot chase is hardly monocle enough for Anthony

However, strictly short term thinking may be a strategic mistake.

What does Anthony want? Well in the short term, he wants to keep his barony, and in the longer term, he wants increased power in London (and at least parts of him want to engage in a cannibalistic murder spree).

What tools does he have?
· There are his kine connections. He is working on developing them, but they are somewhat tangential to this circumstance.
· He has a vampire murder squad (VMS). They are trained, but not blooded. However, they will lose much of their effectiveness as soon as they are exposed, and could even be spun to become a liability if used incorrectly.
· He has Edgar. Edgar is working his magic on the Archon
· He has the Vogel. However, besides the fact that he is a Nazi and much more clever than any Gangrel should be, what does Anthony really know about him?

Although reacting to events and minimizing weaknesses are a key part of survival, Anthony needs to also work on developing his strengths and deciding how to use them. I submit that Anthony does not even know the full extent of his strengths, let alone how to use them.

This circumstance gives an excellent opportunity to start developing strengths. For starters, we should dominate these shovelheads to stand still so that Anthony and the wrecking crew can easily approach and capture one or both of them alive. If they cannot be dominated, either fate was not with him (Anthony is pretty high generation and may not be able to hold them), or they were more than just run-of-the-mill shovelheads, and it is a good idea not to chase after them into a trap anyway. Although this does reveal Anthony’s dominate skill, knowing that a particular Ventrue can dominate is like knowing that a particular cat will claw you for no reason; i.e. not a big surprise.

Well, let’s say we capture one or both of these Sabbat alive, what will they know? Well, if we can capture them easily, then they probably don’t know much. However, they might know something. Either the location of their nest, or at least what propaganda the Sabbat is currently spreading. The latter information is good “know your enemy” stuff, and the former is probably a trap.

I would certainly not send Anthony to an unknown Sabbat den. He would probably be blown up with a bunch of incendiaries (Angelo). But Anthony does happen to know someone who is stealthy, good at fighting, and not particularly trustworthy…../looks at Cripes. If we don’t get the location of their den, then Anthony can figure out what to do, but if it he does, Cripes can scout out a nice easy starter mission for the VMS before they start facing Lasombra flesh crafting.

In the meantime, without his bodyguard (who is probably recording for the Nosferatu anyway) Anthony can have a good sit down and heart to heart with Vogel. If things work out right, Anthony will be working with/for Vogel for decades, if not hundreds of years. It would be awfully nice to know what kind of respect/trust bond can develop. Not only can Anthony finally sit down and design a strategy, but after an entire evening of Bro-date/job interview, he should have a better idea of Vogel’s character and an opinion of the likelihood of betrayal of one or both parties.

So my vote is:
A) Go after them, but smartly…use dominate to avoid having to chase their sorry asses (or run into a trap)
Then:
E) Summit else. We send Cripes to explore and try to recon the den if we find it, but regardless we need to spend at least a night plotting strategy with Vogel so we know where we stand and where we are going. In the event we do find someplace to use the VMS, we need to (P)hone Fellows so that he has some buy in on sending the team out. We REALLY don’t want Edgar thinking that we are cutting him out of the loop or fucking with his team.
 

Kz3r0

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Considering how many people don't like passivity, how about testing our ghoul squad against some Sabbat's den, this however should appear as work of hunters not as our doing, now that the Archon has been attacked this line of action is much safer.
 

Random Word

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MCA Project: Eternity
You haven't proposed a plan - your plan is to have Sommers sit down and make a plan for us. You claim you're interested in the long game, but you're ignoring two long term existential threats to Sommers and the London Camarilla respectively in order to prioritize investigation of a pack of shovelheads with spray paint. Getting to know Vogler is all well and good, but we ought to secure the smaller victory of holding our barony before we work on the larger victory of propping up a friendly prince. It won't matter if Vogler is the favoured choice for Prince if the Archon is killed by hunters or we're the target of a major Masquerade violation - in the former case Venice will come down hard on us and restructure everything, in the latter we become politically toxic if we don't get an opportunity to appreciate the picturesque sunrise over the Thames.
 
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Project: Eternity
Kz3r0

That what I have endorsed, but only if we can be smart about it. The den should be thoroughly scouted and known before we send the ghoul squad, AKA VMS in to crack some skulls. There are what, 4 squaddies and a captain? Not enough to be able to accept really any losses if we can avoid it.

Also, it is possible that Vogel and Anthony have spent quite a bit of time together and I either missed it or it was implicitly described and I did not pick up on it. If that is the case and the collective feels we know Vogel well enough, then I will change my mind.
 
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Project: Eternity
Random, actually I want Anthony to sit down and have US make a plan for him. Right now there is a lot of reacting and not much planning on how we want to get there. I don't think the Archon is under an immediate threat (i.e. in the next three nights), nor do I think that us sitting and keeping our heads down sets us up for a major masquerade violation. The aside with the shovelheads is just that, an aside. Either we get them easily and spend an hour or two getting information before we toss em outside to get a suntan or they get away and we call it a night.

So far, aside from a plan to diablerize all of London, I have not seen any real planning as far as how we intend to go about our long term goals. The plan to sit down is so that there is a role-playing reason to say that yes, Anthony has a good read on Vogel, and yes, they are on the same page for strategy. If that is already done (via whitespace between the updates) then that is ok, but it bothers me to see Anthony reacting instead of acting.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Maybe this will help us decide on a course of action...

Current list of threats - prioritize them as you see fit:
  1. Tony is in danger of losing Whitehall.
  2. The archon said he needs a scapegoat and, as things stand currently, it'll be Tony.
  3. The sabat know where Tony lives and have attacked.
  4. Mandrake situation threatens to expose Tony - possibly weakening his relations with his kine connections and/or causing a masquerade violation that could be politically disastrous.
  5. Turkov wants Fellows and has successfully separated us from him - he may or may not also want to separate us from all our allies too.
  6. We're backing Vogler and he doesn't stand much of a chance right now.

Anything I got wrong or missed?

For me it goes:
2,1,4,3,6,5
 

Running Fox

Educated
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Holy crap. Whats with the combat voters? Am I in the wrong thread?

aa fox
aa lambch
aa oscar
aa smaxe
aa lac
ae cgr
ad strfag
bd excid
ca cappen
ca rand
ca esqui
cb kzero
 

Gondolin

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I vote C on the first question. Don't we have anything better to do this night?

On the second question, I'm not sure what to vote. It's either A or D so far.
 
Unwanted

Kalin

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CA

No need for Sommers to get his hands dirty. Rather, the ghoul team ought to be utilised for some appropriate punitive expeditions.
 

laclongquan

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Well, Computer Gamer Refugee make a nice point about Sabbat knows about our residence. IF we let them do as they please and those bloody shovelheads go home unchased, the higher-ups will know for sure and certain is that we dont have enough combat power to spare for a chase. Or not enough balls to chase. Either way, expect a major frontal assault after this as the first move to retake the central.
On the other hand, if we chase after them full force and let no one escape, higher-ups Sabbat will guess that yes, that location is Tony's home, and yes, the defense of that place is pretty strong and effectively repulsed their first recon. They will attack elsewhere in search of weaker prey.
CHASE make more sense by the minutes.
 

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