Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[AwesomeButton]

Dumbfucks cannot into searching the forums: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...s-analysis-thread.121823/page-90#post-5969233

 

[Desiderius]

Can you translate that?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Dumbfucks cannot into searching the forums: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...s-analysis-thread.121823/page-90#post-5969233

Numbers from 2 years ago.
Well, it means the average price is roughly around 30$.
So, if the 1Million units is true.
So 30-9 = 21M
It says Valve's cut = 30% so 14M left to share among whatever shell companies are involved.

Still making money...

P.S. even if you count valve's cut before the production cost valve's cut =10M then 20M -9M(cost) = 11M benefit.

 

[J1M]

Casting every buff before every encounter in IE is normal? Getting out of no-rest location so that you can rest, return, and cast every buff before each encounter in IE is normal? Uh, sure.

Every encounter? No, not necessary.
But whenever you run out of resources? Yes, totally normal.
And knowing that you can, at will, recover your resources means that you'll spend them more freely. Why wouldn't you?
When you do run out of resources differs from person to person, of course, but the point is that rests are effectively unlimited in video games unless specifically restricted by the developers.
And due to that, resources themselves can be considered unlimited for any scale larger than one battle.

The only practical difference between a system with many per-encounter abilities and a system with many per-rest abilities is how often you need to push that sleep button.
In other words, they are basically identical.

Which is also why the argument that ciphers are so much stronger because of the resting is complete nonsense.
Yes, ciphers are stronger than other classes, but it is NOT because of the resting. They are stronger because their resources are infinite within a single encounter (and, honestly, the abilities themselves are just a bit better).

Again, this is definitely in contrast to PnP where the DM won't just let you rest all the time.
And, yes, you can force yourself to do that, too, but then that is your decision and cannot be assumed as the default.

You understand you're missing the point by "from Earth to Alpha Centauri" distance, right? Replace this with whatever. Tapping the sidestep key to slowly peek around corners/obstacles to shoot at enemies before they trigger and complete the game without getting hit. Abusing slow mo mechanics all the time to complete a game without getting hit. Using economy loopholes to get effectively unlimited cash, often from early game, in like 3/4 crpgs that exist. Getting huge number of your skills to maximum in the first location in Wizardry or Morrowind. Do I need to go on? Games can and will be broken, often in idiotic and tedious ways, truly a discovery worth of 2021. It always was and always will be like that. Also, the important part is that when we look at the following groups of people:

1. Oh no! We absolutely cannot have this! I'm not on the spectrum btw.
2. So what, it is what it is. Fun games with rich mechanics and lots of freedom have loopholes. Every game has loopholes.
3. Breaking games and finding ways to do it is fun!

Then I'm willing to bet my left bollock groups 2 and 3 significantly (understatement) outnumber group 1.

You can fight against it, sure. It's just that it's a) a waste of time and I don't think many people actually want this b) wasting time on it introduces a significant risk (again, understatement) of making your game unnecessarily bland/shit/boring. Many such cases!

I agree with most of this and honestly don't know what part of what I said you consider in conflict with this.

Resting seemed like a cheat code so I only did it about half a dozen times in the whole game.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s bizarre. Resting makes you weaker by canceling your buffs. Only reason to Rest is mainly to clear injuries?

 

[AwesomeButton]

It’s bizarre. Resting makes you weaker by canceling your buffs. Only reason to Rest is mainly to clear injuries?

Resting makes you weaker, only if you do it without a prostitute.

 

[Haplo]

Work in the same narrow way and to do the same narrow thing. Once you’ve effortlessly blown out a combat or three things get boring. Games where you can offer a wide variety of angles of attack - and have to - are more interesting.

I think you've been spoiled by Pathfinder. And KotC maybe.
There indeed, apart from normal magic and spell-like effects you have Combat Maneuvers that target CMD, Attacks of Opportunity, bombs, rays and some other obscure mechanics. Great stuff.

But really, other then those, how many games do you know that offer a significantly broader ability/power variety then Deadfire?
You have 4 defenses in Deadfire and you can attack all of them. Different classes specialize in assaulting different defenses (with Deflection obviously being most common, as the typical "martial" defense). Also you can play the debuffing game to majorly reduce enemy defenses (defense reducing weapon modals are borderline OP, certain debuff spells/powers are very potent too). Its not too difficult to drop an enemy defense by 40+ points.

You have single target spells, ray (pulsing) spells, wall spells, aoe spells, aoe pulsing spells. With various CC/debuff effects attached. DOTs. You have multiple debilitations, including the classic Paralyze and Stun, but also milder, that for example disable offensive ability use or prevent engagement.

Personally I have trouble finding computer games with significantly more rich mechanics.

 

[Haplo]

It’s bizarre. Resting makes you weaker by canceling your buffs. Only reason to Rest is mainly to clear injuries?

Well mostly - for me.
It doesn't cancel special buffs if you don't metagame to keep them in the first place. I don't, but certain tactics, particularly in solo-play, rely on that.

But resting does replenish your Empower points. That's +50% resources to spend in a given fight OR potentially one super-powered ability that could maybe change the tides.
Also, it recharges per rest powers of your items. And some of those are mighty potent (like Amira's Wing). Personally I hate items with per rest powers, but well, they stuck as a legacy.

 

[Invictus]

I feel like popping moles.

They make a really satisfying sound when they die in Fallout, don't they?

And the explode pretty nice too! Even a pop gun makes them blow up like they were mad blood and meat filled balloons

 

[the mole]

Work in the same narrow way and to do the same narrow thing. Once you’ve effortlessly blown out a combat or three things get boring. Games where you can offer a wide variety of angles of attack - and have to - are more interesting.

I think you've been spoiled by Pathfinder. And KotC maybe.
There indeed, apart from normal magic and spell-like effects you have Combat Maneuvers that target CMD, Attacks of Opportunity, bombs, rays and some other obscure mechanics. Great stuff.

But really, other then those, how many games do you know that offer a significantly broader ability/power variety then Deadfire?
You have 4 defenses in Deadfire and you can attack all of them. Different classes specialize in assaulting different defenses (with Deflection obviously being most common, as the typical "martial" defense). Also you can play the debuffing game to majorly reduce enemy defenses (defense reducing weapon modals are borderline OP, certain debuff spells/powers are very potent too). Its not too difficult to drop an enemy defense by 40+ points.

You have single target spells, ray (pulsing) spells, wall spells, aoe spells, aoe pulsing spells. With various CC/debuff effects attached. DOTs. You have multiple debilitations, including the classic Paralyze and Stun, but also milder, that for example disable offensive ability use or prevent engagement.

Personally I have trouble finding computer games with significantly more rich mechanics.

I want to try a flail carnage barbarian, maybe dual wield flail and club with both modals and then see how much that softens up enemies

 

[Haplo]

Work in the same narrow way and to do the same narrow thing. Once you’ve effortlessly blown out a combat or three things get boring. Games where you can offer a wide variety of angles of attack - and have to - are more interesting.

I think you've been spoiled by Pathfinder. And KotC maybe.
There indeed, apart from normal magic and spell-like effects you have Combat Maneuvers that target CMD, Attacks of Opportunity, bombs, rays and some other obscure mechanics. Great stuff.

But really, other then those, how many games do you know that offer a significantly broader ability/power variety then Deadfire?
You have 4 defenses in Deadfire and you can attack all of them. Different classes specialize in assaulting different defenses (with Deflection obviously being most common, as the typical "martial" defense). Also you can play the debuffing game to majorly reduce enemy defenses (defense reducing weapon modals are borderline OP, certain debuff spells/powers are very potent too). Its not too difficult to drop an enemy defense by 40+ points.

You have single target spells, ray (pulsing) spells, wall spells, aoe spells, aoe pulsing spells. With various CC/debuff effects attached. DOTs. You have multiple debilitations, including the classic Paralyze and Stun, but also milder, that for example disable offensive ability use or prevent engagement.

Personally I have trouble finding computer games with significantly more rich mechanics.

I want to try a flail carnage barbarian, maybe dual wield flail and club with both modals and then see how much that softens up enemies

In Deadfire Carnage doesn't carry such effects, I'm afraid. The only weapon special that really benefits from carnage is Lord Darryn's Voulge (carnage delivers Static Charges). Also monk Efficient Anguish can cause the primary weapon attack target to be hit by Carnage also. And I think one of Amra greataxe enchants can have a similar effect.

I'd suggest something else to that tune: use a two-handed morningstar with Fortitude debuffing modal instead. With Brute Force you'll eventually target Fortitude instead of Deflection (if lower), so that leads to plenty of crits. Add Spirit Frenzy to also Stagger enemies on hit (another -10 Fortitude) for a juicy -35 Fort on enemies you attack. Absolutely great for a friendly cipher to land his Disintegrates, Amplified Waves and such. Willbreaker morningstar can also debuff enemy Will by up to -25 (with Shaken & 5 stacks) - again, nice for the Cipher and other CC casters.

Would make a decent multiclass with a Fighter I guess - his Mule Kicks and Clear Out moves target Fortitude instead of Deflection.
Or with a Chanter: Long Night's Drink is ANOTHER -14 Fortitude (so -49 Fort now - and attacks target Fort), Their Companion Braved the Horde Alone provides Energized - and Interrupt on crit - not only on weapon attacks, but also on offensive Chant (such as Long Night's Drink) pulses, Spirit Tornado triggers and so on.

Edit: What could work to aoe debuff, would be Barbarian Heart of Fury (SC only, expensive), Ranger Whirling strikes (SC only) or Fighter's Clear Out (SC or MC, but main hand only).

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Overall, part of me hopes MS realizes just how bad Feargus has been behaving over the years, and recognize that he can't be a good little soldier forever under their watch. Eventually, he'll have to go. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I think the single greatest mistake was over-promising classes to milk more money out of the kickstarter crowd. Rather than getting 2-4 class types correct for a brand new system, they over-promised. Each class needed something distinctive to justify its existence, but in doing so caused each class to revolve around poorly contrived gimmicks. There were many such "cart before the horse" design choices that exacerbated each's weaknesses:

• No hard counters = Do the same thing all of the time because acting in your class's narrow specialization is still more effective than trying to do something it cannot.
• No bad builds + No hard counters = Everything sort-of works. Sort-of.
• Being not-D&D while being a facsimile of D&D = Concept crisis.

PoEs base mechanics clearly begged for a classless system, but again--they over promised to git dem dolla dolla bills. Josh's personal preferences also clashed really hard with all of the promises that compromised the system into something few could really appreciate. The entire game ends up as doppelganger, or in PoE parlance, hollow borne.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I mean honestly, I couldn't tell the difference half the time between one class and another. Magic items were all alike, no real crafting fun that I noticed. I mean, what was the difference between priest, wizard, cipher, etc.? A knockdown spell? Some other crap? I dunno. I mean, even the Paladin sub-classes could have had so much more flavor to them.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Wizards shalt only have friendly-fire AoE damage and debuff in a quasai-Vancian manner. Ciphers shalt only single-target damage and control with a gimmicky mana pool. Druids shalt only summon and slightly less AoE damage with no friendly-fire. Priests shall only support and AoE debuff with no friendly-fire. Chanters shall passively do just about any of those things, but so mildly as to have no meaningful impact until most battles are about over anyway. These contrived class gimmicks were made further dissatisfying by the combination of "no bad builds" and "no hard counters". Nothing could ever be seriously effective, but nothing could truly fail either. Many of the debuffs are also milquetoast to begin with, so having them last such a short period wasn't doing them any favors either. The Cipher was something of an exception, because you could actually do things like Paralyze something; however, against anything worth paralyzing, this might last a whole of 1.8 seconds due to the "no hard counters" design influence. That's a narrow window to capitalize on. None of that is satisfying.

While I like RTwP, one of the challenges with designing such a system is that you're eventually going to reduce things to rates over time. If you analyze PoEs classes and abilities as curves on a plot over some arbitrary time period, they kind of make sense. What they don't make, is fun. It's why the game kind of plays like a busy-body MMO. Instead of having cooldowns preventing ability use, you have execution durations that function conversely. It would be fine if these abilities/spells had high impact in the moment they executed, but they don't. They're all balanced to change their curve on the plot over time. Again, a product of "no bad builds" + "no hard counters".

 

[Wulfric Pinewood]

It was a great game, i hope we will see part 3 along with Tyranny 2.

 

[the mole]

I mean honestly, I couldn't tell the difference half the time between one class and another. Magic items were all alike, no real crafting fun that I noticed. I mean, what was the difference between priest, wizard, cipher, etc.? A knockdown spell? Some other crap? I dunno. I mean, even the Paladin sub-classes could have had so much more flavor to them.

priest more buffs, less damaging spells, and the damaging spells you have aren't very useful in general, single target enemy debuffs, friendly buffs, and enemy debuffs
wizard self buffs, aoe attacks effecting all targets but generally more powerful effects
cipher mostly enemy debuffs, and single target drain attribute from enemy to absorb to cipher

 

[the mole]

most people here are just too old to enjoy games, that's fine

your mage can't be all powerful for every single situation and have every spell in the game, although it isn't far off in pillars 1, just choose the caster that best fits your party and move on

 

[the mole]

also debuffs are absurdly powerful in poe 1

so I don't know what game you guys played, you could do things like -30 defenses -30 accuracy on enemies with 2 or 3 spells

pretty sure chanter in poe 1 had chants that passively caused frighten which was like -10 accuracy for enemies, something like that, which many enemies in the game didn't resist, it was a passive you got at like level 5

combine that with increasing your accuracy by 30 and you'll pretty much always crit and they'll always miss

 

[Poseidon00]

PoE2 was good because I could create any character concept I wanted, more or less, similar to 3e. Balance? To heck with that.

 

[Cryomancer]

wizard self buffs, aoe attacks effecting all targets but generally more powerful effects

Wizard fells more like a "generic mmo" wizard, instead of a "infinity engine" wizard. Where are the social spells like charm person? The powerful necromantic spells? Conjuration of demons to do your biding? Divination? Teleportation? Item enchanting spells? Polymorth spells? Disintegration spells?

 

[the mole]

wizard self buffs, aoe attacks effecting all targets but generally more powerful effects

Wizard fells more like a "generic mmo" wizard, instead of a "infinity engine" wizard. Where are the social spells like charm person? The powerful necromantic spells? Conjuration of demons to do your biding? Divination? Teleportation? Item enchanting spells? Polymorth spells? Disintegration spells?

I guess you can't have every spell in the game at once, and you'll have to pick a different character if you want the other spells, bummer

 

[the mole]

nothing is stopping you from picking a wizard, cipher and chanter in the same party, infact they go pretty well together in general

 

[the mole]

wizard self buffs, aoe attacks effecting all targets but generally more powerful effects

Wizard fells more like a "generic mmo" wizard, instead of a "infinity engine" wizard. Where are the social spells like charm person? The powerful necromantic spells? Conjuration of demons to do your biding? Divination? Teleportation? Item enchanting spells? Polymorth spells? Disintegration spells?

name one game that allows your wizard to have all of those spells at the same time

 

[Cryomancer]

name one game that allows your wizard to have all of those spells at the same time

Baldur's Gate 2 and ToB.

You can cast stop time, wish, wail of the banshee, finger of death, animate dead, polymorth, cloudkill, charm person, dominate person, shapechange(...) with a single character. The problem is that Pillars has only lackluster spells. You can't compare cloudkill with "malignant cloud" or wathever the spell is called.

In fact, why anyone would pick alteration or conjuration as a wizard on pillars 2?