Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Prime Junta]

Her entire dialogue is lore dumps about a place that you never visit and that has no relevance to the story.

No it's not. You can talk to her about her home and she answers your questions about it. But she does not go off on long-winded unprompted irrelevant explanations. It's lore delivery done well.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

No, acktually is. Games are our literature, for better or for worse, and great lit isn't written by committee. Trying to do so is a guarantee that it will fit together poorly.

Then we need to settle for much smaller games than we have now. There's no way something as big as, say, either of the Pillars games could have been written by a single author.

Also collaborative literature is also literature, and it does not necessarily mean writing by committee. Nor does it mean the strict vertical command structures Chris so loves. Collaboration really is a thing. Collaborative writing is a little bit like playing a tabletop RPG – sure, there's a DM, but the players riff off him and each other. Imagine something like that, except you're producing a text rather than an experience.

I'd rather have smaller games that are interesting to play through than long games that are a chore to play. I'll take Undertale and Age of Decadence over PoE anytime.

 

[Akratus]

The 3 characters I know that Josh has written are Pallegina, New Vegas Chief Hanlon, and Honest Hearts Joshua Graham.

Also Arcade Gannon.

Ah, yes, Arcade was decent. He was gay but I didn't mind it at all. Good work there.

And he's not Veronica. God I hate that character. The only part of New Vegas that I didn't like.
"Thanks for taking a chance on a naive young girl--"
SKIP SKIP SKIP FOR GOD'S SAKE SHUT UP

 

[Prime Junta]

I'd rather have smaller games that are interesting to play through than long games that are a chore to play. I'll take Undertale and Age of Decadence over PoE anytime.

Same, but I'd take a bigger game that's well written, coherent, and not a chore to play above those. They do happen from time to time. Witcher 3 had its problems but writing or lack of coherence in it wasn't among them.

 

[Desiderius]

not fuckable

She has a family, so you're not quite getting there biologically. The idea that she'd leave her kids behind to go on some spirit quest isn't exactly endearing. I wasn't going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good tho. Same with Linzi.

 

[Prime Junta]

She has a family, so you're not quite getting there biologically.

I mean, fuckable by the player, as in, written and/or described as a desirable sex or romance object (with or without actual sex or romance).

 

[Lacrymas]

Then we need to settle for much smaller games than we have now. There's no way something as big as, say, either of the Pillars games could have been written by a single author.

Also collaborative literature is also literature, and it does not necessarily mean writing by committee. Nor does it mean the strict vertical command structures Chris so loves. Collaboration really is a thing. Collaborative writing is a little bit like playing a tabletop RPG – sure, there's a DM, but the players riff off him and each other. Imagine something like that, except you're producing a text rather than an experience.

There is a pronounced love of the Great Man theory within not only public spaces, but also academic spheres, so the disdain towards collaborative creative endeavors is understandable on that ground. Usually conservatives love it because they can blame the individual for a problem which is societal. Like Desiderius pointed out, even the Bible was written by like 40 people with different political agendas (this is not a hot take before anyone jumps on me, this is written in the preface of basically every modern Bible), so it's not true that nothing "high" can come from collaborative effort. People like to point to musical pieces, novels, paintings when talking about this, but they neglect to cover comic books, films or video games, which are predominantly not a one-man job.

 

[S.torch]

. Like Desiderius pointed out, even the Bible was written by like 40 people

The Bible is not one book. Is a compilation of various books.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Also collaborative literature is also literature, and it does not necessarily mean writing by committee. Nor does it mean the strict vertical command structures Chris so loves. Collaboration really is a thing. Collaborative writing is a little bit like playing a tabletop RPG – sure, there's a DM, but the players riff off him and each other. Imagine something like that, except you're producing a text rather than an experience.

If you want to make games like ZA/UM, you need an organization like ZA/UM. It doesn’t work when the CEO will happily step into the middle of any dispute and side with his cronies.

Chris was advocating for vertical command structures at organizations like Obsidian that are going to be vertical no matter what. His only experience of more horizontal structures is as a sham—of course he has no time for them. Having clear lines of formal authority is definitely better than a system of favoritism where Feargus’ buddies get to make all the decisions regardless of where they fall in the hierarchy (or whether their ideas are any good).

The narrative lead on Pillars was a prick who’s notorious for not playing well with others (and for driving away many of Obsisian’s most talented writers!). I doubt Fenstermaker had much interest in fostering a collaborative environment. He probably would’ve been pissed if Chris started showing up at every meeting: “Feargus, tell Avellone to stop looking over my shoulder!”

 

[Prime Junta]

I can understand where he's coming from. That doesn't make him right however.

As to a collaborative environment, yeah sure maybe, but I think it's obvious that the other writers did collaborate with each other. Their stuff coheres, Chris's doesn't. In other words I'm not taking Chris's May of Rage story at face value, at all. The man is practically a butthurt singularity, whatever he says is bound to be massively one-sided.

 

[Viata]

- He prefers TB combat
- He prefers classless systems
- He prefers low-fantasy, grounded, historical or history-based settings

I would love this game if it existed. Sawyer would have me at TB and classless alone.

This. I was thinking "Why I hate this faggot again?" and then I saw this:

 

[Junmarko]

Ah, yes, Arcade was decent. He was gay but I didn't mind it at all. Good work there.

Arcade was bent? Wow, I didn't even notice. Good writing.

 

[Prime Junta]

This. I was thinking "Why I hate this faggot again?" and then I saw this:

If Josh ever gets to make his dream game the Codex might actually like it. As likely as not it'd turn out mind-numbingly dull though.

--> I think Josh would make a great DM. He's really good at the nuts and bolts of world-building, and would make a great straight man fending off all the crazy, zany, heroic, and stupid shit the players come up with.

 

[Lacrymas]

I can understand where he's coming from. That doesn't make him right however.

As to a collaborative environment, yeah sure maybe, but I think it's obvious that the other writers did collaborate with each other. Their stuff coheres, Chris's doesn't. In other words I'm not taking Chris's May of Rage story at face value, at all. The man is practically a butthurt singularity, whatever he says is bound to be massively one-sided.

The entirety of PoE is incoherent in terms of writing, though. The only coherence between the companions is their subdued tone, which Durance and GM are an exception of and it can be argued that Durance is actually more coherent with the world and its events than the other people. And he tells a more engaging story, one which we want to be a part of. GM tries that too, I guess, but she's too overdone.

 

[Desiderius]

This. I was thinking "Why I hate this faggot again?" and then I saw this:

If Josh ever gets to make his dream game the Codex might actually like it. As likely as not it'd turn out mind-numbingly dull though.

--> I think Josh would make a great DM. He's really good at the nuts and bolts of world-building, and would make a great straight man fending off all the crazy, zany, heroic, and stupid shit the players come up with.

Uh, that’s Deadfire.

Baby with bath water.

 

[Prime Junta]

Uh, that’s Deadfire.

Baby with bath water.

Hell no, Deadfire is even further removed from his dream game. Even more epic, even more classes, even less grounded, even more finely tuned to a meticulously researched and completely misguided idea of what players want.

 

[Desiderius]

. Like Desiderius pointed out, even the Bible was written by like 40 people

The Bible is not one book. Is a compilation of various books.

And yet the KJV forms a coherent whole where the NRSV (which had a lead for each book - some great men and women, can vouch first hand) does not.

Poetry v. Prose.

 

[Prime Junta]

Hey that’s a cool idea, let’s rate holy books. I rate the Bible a strong 6/10.

 

[Desiderius]

Uh, that’s Deadfire.

Baby with bath water.

Hell no, Deadfire is even further removed from his dream game. Even more epic, even more classes, even less grounded, even more finely tuned to a meticulously researched and completely misguided idea of what players want.

Yeah, whatever.

Anti-heroic tragedy is square peg, round hole.

 

[Desiderius]

Hey that’s a cool idea, let’s rate holy books. I rate the Bible a strong 6/10.

Holy books are, as it happened, books.

Same topic you were on about. Septuagint and KJV are famous (and rare) examples of collaborative writing done well. If you want to strike them out you’re cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Lacrymas]

Hey that’s a cool idea, let’s rate holy books. I rate the Bible a strong 6/10.

I like the Bible, I met/bonded with one of my best friends when I forced him to read me passages from it at a birthday party we were both at.

 

[Roguey]

I'm not sure why people don't like her, maybe because she's fairly low-key and a woman but not fuckable

Um https://www.deviantart.com/bbmmn/art/Sagani-619256926

 

[Prime Junta]

I'm not sure why people don't like her, maybe because she's fairly low-key and a woman but not fuckable

Um https://www.deviantart.com/bbmmn/art/Sagani-619256926

I'd expect there's fap material about Lady Webb out there somewhere, Rule 34 and all that. She's still not written as a potential waifu.

 

[Lacrymas]

Um https://www.deviantart.com/bbmmn/art/Sagani-619256926

She looks like a 12-year-old boy here, so

 

[S.torch]

Hey that’s a cool idea, let’s rate holy books. I rate the Bible a strong 6/10.

Holy books are, as it happened, books.

Same topic you were on about. Septuagint and KJV are famous (and rare) examples of collaborative writing done well. If you want to strike them out you’re cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The Bible shouldn't be translated to be "coherent". Is a Holy Book, not juvenile fiction. This comparison is totally out of place.