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Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

Desiderius

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Read this thread maybe?
It's all microissues that most gamers don't care about. I'm like Josh, I'm just not seeing the big red flags that would have caused a massive flop. But then again, was it a massive flop even if it sold better than Tyranny?

It was insultingly easy, unpopulated, stats didn’t matter, hamhanded Poz. All the things people with two brain cells to rub together care about.

You don’t get those people behind you, your game isn’t selling.
 

Butter

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Read this thread maybe?
It's all microissues that most gamers don't care about. I'm like Josh, I'm just not seeing the big red flags that would have caused a massive flop. But then again, was it a massive flop even if it sold better than Tyranny?
I'm sure it cost more to produce than Tyranny did. I honestly think the reason Deadfire sold so poorly comes entirely down to PoE having a weak opening. The game does such a bad job of enticing players into its world, most casuals never stuck with it. Then they were supposed to be excited about a direct sequel to the game they didn't finish?
 

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It was insultingly easy, unpopulated, stats didn’t matter, hamhanded Poz. All the things people with two brain cells to rub together care about.

You don’t get those people behind you, your game isn’t selling.

I still don't see those as having a major impact in sales.

I'm sure it cost more to produce than Tyranny did. I honestly think the reason Deadfire sold so poorly comes entirely down to PoE having a weak opening. The game does such a bad job of enticing players into its world, most casuals never stuck with it. Then they were supposed to be excited about a direct sequel to the game they didn't finish?

Junta already explained that PoE1 falls within the average completion rate of CRPGs. I think the first game sold better partly because of the massive Kickstarter hype.
 

Tenebris

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They probably shouldn't have had it be a direct sequel. Have you play as a character from Yezuha maybe. It would mesh well with the stranger in an unfamiliar land people tend to like so much. Instead they had you play as the Watcher again and made every decision in the first game not matter at all. I remember Josh hyping up the consequences on what you did with Thaos' soul and all we got was a line of dialogue in Beast of Winter. Not to mention pretty much every other decision had little to no impact. It's like they wanted Deadfire to be both a sequel and a stand alone game which made it shit in both departments.
 

Butter

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Junta already explained that PoE1 falls within the average completion rate of CRPGs. I think the first game sold better partly because of the massive Kickstarter hype.
Most cRPGs have comparable completion rates, but most cRPGs can't justify direct sequels, even with decent sales. Deadfire could have been moderately successful if it had been constructed and marketed as a separate adventure within the PoE setting.
 

Desiderius

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I don't think it's impossible at all. Some shortcomings are glaring even. I think that blaming the wrong time and place is placing one's head in the sand./

Like what shortcomings that would exactly have drastically affected sales? The game reviewed extremely well at 88% on metacritic. Even Josh can't figure out why, how would a few over ambitious Codexers know?

Ok, don't blame me for the wall of text and that won't be nearly enough.

This is a huge topic. It's not about what anyone says. Yes, tastes, trends etc also play a role but if you deconstruct anything enough, you can also make logical/factual observations. For example, when people talk about C&C. What is the number of skill checks or decisions in the game? How many of them affect something that actually changes gameplay to a meaningfully deterministic point, for the player's experience? Now check that again comparing it to P:K. How important is C&C even, in crpgs? Who knows, right. Or story - what makes good literature? Succint but elegantly descriptive storytelling or painfully descriptive storytelling using a ton of fancy thesaurus adjectives at every other sentence?


The above is hardly considered deconstruction ofc - it is a huge topic after all - and you can call it biased because it's more about general impressions, but let's take a simpler example that none may care about, but it does indicates some interesting things about the rest of the game - the ship "mini-game", excluding any interface issues:

-How is the mini-game's "gameplay loop" affecting the main game? Meaning: How are ship upgrades or crew actually affecting the main game? Does the game make you care enough about aqcuiring them? Do you actually need to, given that the only area you can't traverse is the last and even there it's scripted that you get a ship? Are a couple of captain bounties enough of an incentive?
-How is the main game's loop affecting the mini-game? Is the game's economy such, that ship upgrades are something you don't "just click", but rather care about, or struggle to get? Is special crew recruiting something engaging, or again, something you "just click a few times"?

And it's not only about gameplay, because engaging gameplay also supports RP and immersion. Do the above have anything to do with tastes? Doesn't matter if anyone likes the mini-game or not or whether it should have been in the game. It's irrelevant. The fact is they threw a bunch of assets in a place and don't use them properly. What does this have to do with the actual game? I think they do exactly the same in many occasions. Another simple isolated example of an occasion like that is "empty islands". Islands, e.g. with a single area and a bounty boss. Barely any RP, any skill checks, any C&C. Do you really think that's "nitpicking"? And then you see P:K sprinkling them almost everywhere.


Whatever one may be creating, creator's prejudice is a bitch. When you pour your soul into something having a specific mindset, it's hard to change that mindset when criticizing it. Plus the game wasn't a disaster or anything so that you can pinpoint something that "drastically" affected sales - it was a pretty decent game, so that makes it much harder to pinpoint what went wrong with it.

So. So. So this.

Make shit matter. People will figure it out then and enjoy figuring it out then tell people how much they enjoyed it. Those people will then buy your games.

You’ve got nothing to lose but your snobbery, Josh.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
a lot of players like:

* characters that are more exaggerated/over-the-top/campy/silly.

* weapon/armor/character design that is more exaggerated/fantastic.

* plots that pit good against evil (in one form or another).

* progression systems that are fundamentally easy to break.
Still didn't break him enough, still blames dumb shit on players.
Kingdom Come has no first three points and is loved by players.

I really don’t think you can compare a text heavy isometric RPG to a cinematic action RPG because what counts against one doesn’t necessarily count against the other. Your characters can get away with being a lot more toned-down if the player can see their faces. In isometric you’re relying entirely on the text, so muted, realistic NPCs are not memorable. I still remember way too many of the barks from the infinity engine games, I remember no barks from POE or Deadfire.

Plus, you’re wrong about Kingdom Come. It had plenty of over the top characters who got lots of screen time like Hans and father Godwin. And while the main quest ultimately gets more complicated, most of the game is about defending Bohemia against a foreign invasion and an attempted usurpation—it doesn’t get more straightforwardly good versus evil than that. I mean, Jesus, you watch the Hungarians burn your home town to the ground and slaughter your parents in an extended cutscene near the beginning. Even if it’s not strictly good vs evil, Kingdom Come has a very strong sense of us vs them, which is the same thing from the player’s perspective.

Beyond everything else, a game set in a war zone is inherently more interesting than a game set in a precariously balanced region with competing factions that are nevertheless not in open conflict. Imagine New Vegas if the legion and NCR were at peace with Mr. House trying to mediate. That’s the faction setup in Deadfire and it’s a lot less engaging.
 

Lacrymas

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I'm sure it cost more to produce than Tyranny did. I honestly think the reason Deadfire sold so poorly comes entirely down to PoE having a weak opening. The game does such a bad job of enticing players into its world, most casuals never stuck with it. Then they were supposed to be excited about a direct sequel to the game they didn't finish?
It's not entirely down to that, but it is a huge, I'd say even gigantic factor. Only 25% of the playerbase managed to get to Defiance Bay and, maybe not so surprisingly, PoE2 sold only 25% of PoE1's copies. I don't think the game gets better after getting to Defiance Bay, though, quite the contrary, it gets progressively worse. I theorize that a lot of the sold copies of PoE2 were because of the expectation for improvement.
 

Atchodas

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Plus the game wasn't a disaster or anything

But it was a disaster, FIG investors are not even getting 40% back from their shares, Deadfire was commercial disaster I dont think enough of people actually realise this but Deadfire was such epic fail that they sold themselves to Microsoft
 

Desiderius

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It's all true except for the mechanics part, most people didn't like it either. But it's PoE1 which was dissapointing in the first place, PoE2 consensus among both users and press was it's good if you want more PoE and it was bought mostly by people who wanted more.

I liked PoE a great deal. Reminded me of BG 1. BG 2 built on all that was good in BG 1 and gave the players more of it than they could imagine.

Deadfire less.
 

user

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Plus the game wasn't a disaster or anything

But it was a disaster, FIG investors are not even getting 40% back from their shares, Deadfire was commercial disaster I dont think enough of people actually realise this but Deadfire was such epic fail that they sold themselves to Microsoft

Well, yes but also no, strictly speaking. Financial flop due to its expectations/budget perhaps, but certainly not the PR disaster, or the kind of disaster that would put a company under (which happens quite often).
 

Desiderius

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What he is saying is absolutely vestigial. There are all types of aesthetics that have sold well, whether those are realistic, dark, silly, abstract, cubic (Minecraft). I don't like that he's blaming the audience when even a cursory glance at the evidence and the more serious discussions around this topic reveal fundamental problems with the way the game was made. While developers do have very little control over the preferences of the audience, a good game can and does sway those preferences into its favor. Not to mention that as a niche genre, he shouldn't look at "a lot of players" but at his target audience. They would be passionate enough after that to convince others to try it (like D:OS2).

Strong disagree. He’s not blaming the player base. His whole point is that he doesn’t understand some very crucial things about the player base, although he knows that his own tastes are idiosyncratic.

If anything I feel like he’s been reading this thread. It’s not the be-all end-all, but when a game’s tone bores the shit out of players how can that not hurt its sales? Aside from a few highly visible parts of the main quest, most of the content in POE and Deadfire feels like Sawyer was telling his writers, “make it more grounded and realistic,” which translates to mundane and boring.

Sawyer’s low-key aesthetic was definitely a problem. It might not be fatal to a dungeon crawl, but when you’re dealing with text heavy isometric CRPGs this stuff needs to be engaging and Sawyer is allergic to the shit that normally gets people engaged. He was the right guy to direct a 3D Fallout title, but the wrong guy to direct POE or Deadfire.

No, when he throws up his hands and says “Oh well, guess people just like stupid, cartoony shit” he’s exactly blaming the player base.

People put up with stupid cartoony shit if the underlying game is good, but the stupid cartoony shit is a product of current devs coming from a class that holds regular people, including gamers, in contempt.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Plus the game wasn't a disaster or anything

But it was a disaster, FIG investors are not even getting 40% back from their shares, Deadfire was commercial disaster I dont think enough of people actually realise this but Deadfire was such epic fail that they sold themselves to Microsoft

Well, yes but also no, strictly speaking. Financial flop due to its expectations/budget perhaps, but certainly not the PR disaster, or the kind of disaster that would put a company under (which happens quite often).

Financial disasters are precisely the kind of disasters that cause companies to go under. You can have a beloved brand, it won’t stop you from going bankrupt if management allocates resources poorly and loses massive sums of money. That’s what they did with Deadfire—they lit their POE windfall on fire.

I suspect Obsidian had to sell itself to someone to come up with the cash to finish The Outer Worlds. It wouldn’t be the first time that Feargus allegedly filched money from a publisher backed project to fund a Pillars game.
 

Desiderius

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The game reviewed extremely well, so why would word of mouth be only 'eh it's okay'?

Because game reviewers are retards and hired on that basis so they don’t write anything the people who pay them don’t want them to.
 

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or the kind of disaster that would put a company under

it was exactly the kind of disaster to put company under Microsoft boot

Financial disasters are precisely the kind of disasters that cause companies to go under. You can have a beloved brand, it won’t stop you from going bankrupt if management allocates resources poorly and loses massive sums of money. That’s what they did with Deadfire—they lit their POE windfall on fire.

I suspect Obsidian had to sell itself to someone to come up with the cash to finish The Outer Worlds. It wouldn’t be the first time that Feargus allegedly filched money from a publisher backed project to fund a Pillars game.

I agree, but when a company wants to invest in something, it does more than just look into its latest fiscal year. Reputation can be distilled into money too. At least someone wants to invest in them and they don't have to euthanize it just yet. Whether that ends up being worse than euthanization, remains to be seen.
 

Trashos

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Josh seems to have lost the plot completely.

Are there any people who think "Wow, PoE1/PoE2 is so fucking great! Wow, this game is so cool!" INSIDE FUCKING OBSIDIAN? The games are not good, because you never tried to make them good. (And because you have gathered a lot of talentless people at the company too, but this is besides the point I am making right now.)

Josh tried to sell out by ticking checkboxes. That almost never works, it takes insane amounts of luck. Since you don't already have the winning formula, what you need is talented people who will actually enjoy impressing the casuals and the retards. Those are the people who will come up with the ideas that casuals and retards will find awesome.

Instead, pirates and a wondering God was slapped on a New Vegas-like faction-based setting. Even New Vegas would have been a laughing stock, if you had done this to it.
 

Roguey

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That is not something that I get to decide, but I do think that the relatively low sales of Deadfire mean that if we consider making another Pillars game in this style, we’re going to have to re-examine the entire format of the game.

Current projects at Obsidian:
Outer Worlds DLC, presumably led by Cain/Boyarsky (if they're not already starting pre-production on the sequel)
Parkerrim, Chris Parker's Skyrim
Sawyer Elysium, some no-combat thing directed by Josh Sawyer
Mystery project that went into development in January 2019, directed by Matt Perez, an area designer for Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire
Edit: I forgot the mystery Adam Brennecke project. Lot of projects going on here.

Seems risky to start two brand new things at once (three if you're counting Sawyer's likely-low-budget thing, four counting Brennecke's), so Perez is probably on the heavily-reexamined PoE 3. I predict multiplayer (in addition to retaining rtwp/turn-based modes). Gotta beat D:OS at any cost.

Additionally, as mentioned earlier in the thread, the original Pillars must have done something right given the number of new and old people still playing it. As of this moment:

Pillars of Eternity: 1104 in-game
Tyranny: 269
Divinity: Original Sin: Enhanced Edition: 1177
Divinity: Original Sin (Classic): 52
Wasteland 2 - Original Cut: 37
Wasteland 2 - Director's Cut: 348 (they're both labeled as Director's Cut on the Steam Database, this fooled me)
Tides of Numenera: 61 (surprised this is higher than Wasteland 2 tbh)
Bard's Tale IV: 20
Bard's Tale IV: Director's Cut: 62
Shadowrun: 68
Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut: 110
Shadowrun: Hong Kong: 111
Might and Magic X: 49
Blackguards: 49
Blackguards 2: 23

Most people have moved on from the Crowdfunded Renaissance-era, but not from PoE and D:OS, they're still going decently strong. Seems to me like regardless of this forum's feelings about it, it still has a positive reputation. :)
 
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Lacrymas

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Instead, pirates and a wondering God was slapped on a New Vegas-like faction-based setting.
This sounds awesome, though. Just not in the way they did it.
Pillars of Eternity: 1104 in-game
I don't think PoE1 is disgustingly bad*, so I'm not surprised it still retains some players
Might and Magic X: 49
Such a shame.


* 90% of base game is, but if you don't think about it and play it only for the combat, along with tempered expectations and a lot of compromises, you can squeeze some enjoyment out of the whole thing, with White March being an essential component.
 
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