Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Alpan]

Reviews happen before players actually decide they like or dislike a game.

Including Steam reviews?

No, of course not, but it's an interesting query. I would think that the number of Steam reviews, especially recent ones, is a good indicator of post-release interest.

 

[Infinitron]

Reviews happen before players actually decide they like or dislike a game.

Including Steam reviews?

No, of course not, but it's an interesting query. I would think that the number of Steam reviews, especially recent ones, is a good indicator of post-release interest.

Heh, I was expecting you to say "Yes" instead of moving the goalposts. I mean, that's what we're talking about here.

There always seemed to be an undercurrent of discontent about the quality of Obsidian's isometric RPGs - Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny, Deadfire. On all the forums (not just RPG Codex but also Something Awful etc) there seemed to be significant numbers of people who thought they were bad and boring. But it just never showed up on Steam. Games get review bombed on Steam all the time - inXile's Torment and Bard's Tale IV got killed - but Obsidian has always managed to avoid this. They shrugged off the Firedorn culture war incident with ease, an event the likes of which would have destroyed lesser companies.

As I've said before, Obsidian's fans really like Obsidian. They can't bring themselves to review bomb their games. You could argue that this is actually hurting Obsidian because it hides necessary criticism from them.

 

[Alpan]

Reviews happen before players actually decide they like or dislike a game.

Including Steam reviews?

No, of course not, but it's an interesting query. I would think that the number of Steam reviews, especially recent ones, is a good indicator of post-release interest.

Heh, I was expecting you to say "Yes" instead of moving the goalposts. I mean, that's what we're talking about here, man.

There always seemed to be an undercurrent of discontent about the quality of Obsidian's isometric RPGs - Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny, Deadfire. On all the forums (not just RPG Codex but also Something Awful etc) there seemed to be significant numbers of people who thought they were bad and boring. But it just never showed up on Steam. Games get review bombed on Steam all the time - inXile's Torment and Bard's Tale IV got killed - but Obsidian has always managed to avoid this. They shrugged off the Firedorn culture war incident with ease, an event the likes of which would have destroyed lesser companies.

As I've said before, Obsidian's fans really like Obsidian. They can't bring themselves to review bomb their games. You could argue that this is actually hurting Obsidian because it hides necessary criticism from them.

I didn't mean to move the goalposts or engage in some other verbal gymnastics or rhetorical trick, if that's what you were wondering. When I said "reviews" in my original post I was going off critic scores because that seemed to be the main metric Sawyer was considering -- I simply wasn't thinking about Steam reviews because of the way game sales usually happen (i.e. heavily frontloaded and more dependent on critic reviews than user reviews).

As for your point, I broadly agree, but I am not sure I see how Obsidian having really dedicated fans actually prevent negative scores from appearing. There is indeed an undercurrent of discontent, but from what I have seen that usually translates to ennui, apathy, or feeling "meh" which usually isn't enough to induce someone to write a positive or negative review. Obsidian has always had a reserve of goodwill among players, so with them it's generally been a theme of not living up to their potential.

 

[Prime Junta]

As I've said before, Obsidian's fans really like Obsidian. They can't bring themselves to review bomb their games. You could argue that this is actually hurting Obsidian because it hides necessary criticism from them.

As an ex-fan I agree.

The thing with Obsidian was that they were making inspired but flawed games, differently from everyone else who were making boring but competent games. They gave the vibe that they tried. They kept trying, kept coming close to true greatness, kept just falling short of it, with the sole and highly notable exception of FONV. I for one was willing to give them a lot of slack as long as I felt that they kept trying.

Deadfire, I think, was the turning point. It still has some of that old Obsidian feel to it, and sorry bros but a lot of it is thanks to Josh -- notably the colonial scenario autism and factions. However it also has a lot of nu-Obsidian: the romances, the Mary Sue companions, the shoehorned-in epicness disconnected from the autism, major mechanical changes made in the name of accessibility.

With TOW they've ditched the very thing that made them attractive and different. Now they're just another studio making things for the monies, with barely any creative ambitions left.

 

[Butter]

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

 

[Jezal_k23]

I think one thing they'd need to do is go 3D like DOS2. I don't think most dasual gamers really want the hand painted backgrounds and being unable to rotate the camera.

 

[Wunderbar]

Reviews happen before players actually decide they like or dislike a game.

Including Steam reviews?

if the game doesn't have some controversy behind it, and it's not a buggy piece of shit, then it will get positive reviews on steam.

 

[Butter]

I think one thing they'd need to do is go 3D like DOS2. I don't think most dasual gamers really want the hand painted backgrounds and being unable to move the camera.

Ironically one of the things that I hated about D:OS. Every 10 seconds you have to adjust the camera so you can even see what you're doing. The advantage of fixed camera angle is the level designers have to actually design.

 

[fantadomat]

extinct IE style crap

of which dragon age is a spiritual successor......lol you are retarded.

 

[Elex]

Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which generally had lower review scores than Deadfire, sold better than Deadfire

Jesus.

Anyway the reason is obvious. The first game was actually bad. Most people who bought it never even came close to finishing it. Why would they buy the sequel?

It also confirm that i am right.

 

[Prime Junta]

Anyway the reason is obvious. The first game was actually bad. Most people who bought it never even came close to finishing it. Why would they buy the sequel?

Completion rates for most cRPGs are around 10%. Pillars' wasn't any worse than average.

 

[Morkar Left]

PoE 1 art direction was great, PoE 2 looks similar. I have bought PoE2 but haven't even installed it so far. Mostly because I haven't even finished PoE 1.

Though let's make this a rant over PoE1 to explain why I didn't play PoE2. Why I haven't finished that? Well I thought it started great but then fall apart quickly. The world is inconsitent for me (climate zones, no geographical overview of the world and its countires, trying too hard to do the opposite of what people expect, providing backgrounds for your pc without having background information about the country he's coming from, general inconsistent world with magic and souls). The story is too dark for a BG-style fantasy game. And people like to explore in rpgs. PoE didn't really provide that feel imo.

They just tried to cramp into too much influences into one product. Despite the tabletop system Planescape Torment and BG don't have much in common. PoE tried to match both games instead for a strong direction which game to prefer. And they tried too much to copy the D&D system instead of doing more on their own (a skill based system would have been good).

The story where YOU have to decide how your former self pc acted and felt in his former life without knowing absolutely nothing about that past - it's intenetionally kept a mystery - felt really awkward and strange. I felt a complete disconnect from these scenes. It would have been better to just show the scenes instead of making it interactive.

But what killed my excitement was the ridiculous easy difficulty in the mainstory when entering Defiance Bay. And about difficulty; I'm experienced but not a grognard or munchkin. Pathfinder as an example has a too high difficulty in the beginning (just from the encounter design alone) imo.

I heard PoE 2 is even easier than the first. Plus it's a continuous story from the first one without being able to import at least the main chars stats (because system changed again on a huge scale and generally it would be overpowered). I don't really like this. Better to go with a complete new char then. Continuing stories only make sense to me in rpgs when you get to keep your char build (some taking away on the side is ok for changing rules and difficulty).

And the 3s this and 1s that special powers which all kind of sucked (not even going into the silly ability distributions and all that). Still after years (?) of patching it seems it became kind of "fun". At least enough that I want to finish it some day. But I still get distracted from other games all the time e.g. for rpgs Star Traders, Kingdom Come and lately Pathfinder.

Long story short, there's no point in starting PoE 2 when you haven't finished 1 first imho.

 

[user]

https://youtu.be/7LDEiqzd1GA?t=2281

If a rl DM went on rambling like that I'd punch him in the face

 

[Atchodas]

As I've said before, Obsidian's fans really like Obsidian. They can't bring themselves to review bomb their games. You could argue that this is actually hurting Obsidian because it hides necessary criticism from them.

This is so true, even at this point there is a thread about Deadfire vs Kingmaker in obsidian forums and local fanboys will do whatever it takes to portray Deadfire as some epic masterpiece when they know themselves game was kinda shit and it didn't sell at all. Meanwhile Kingmaker is masterpiece (compared to competition, mainly derpfire) but they are trashing it every chance they get

 

[Jezal_k23]

Well, sales don't represent quality at all. So that is a moot point.

 

[Serious_Business]

Holy shit this man is loosing it. Holding is head in shame and regret, trying to "explain his failure", doing introspection exercises on "how things could have been better". What is this, relationship trauma? You gonna be a better man next time? You're definitively going to think about her feelings next time, aren't you? Get the fuck outta here. I guess you could say that there's something sympathetic about it - it could be seen as "better" than him just sticking to his vision and defending it despite the criticism and the... low sales. But that's it, he had no vision and if the game had sold well, he wouldn't care about the criticism. He's just admitting that he was trying to make a product that sells, and it didn't sell. What the difference with D:OS2 and Kingmaker? Well, these guys didn't expect their games to sell. And they did. It's the "success story" : they took a risk ; he didn't. Big fucking deal, huh? Just make a game that you think you'd have fun playing, I don't know. There's just no joy in this fucker. He's "analyzing the fun factor". In retrospect, it was obvious that these "resurrection of the crpg genre" projects were creatively bankrupt from the start. You can't just try to recreate something from another era, that's always bound to feel fake and kitsch. Of course there's going to be an audience that wants the same old tired shit, but then don't expect for it to sell well. Fucking hell, writing this crap I've been thinking of the PoE experience, the trash mobs, the insufferable character system, the inane reproduction of second edition dnd, the tedious writing, and I have nausea. I played this game 7 times and it definitively is shit. Can't wait to start it up again tonight!!!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

ll. What the difference with D:OS2 and Kingmaker?

A large portion of people buying these games want a traditional fantasy setting.

 

[Daedalos]

As I've said before, Obsidian's fans really like Obsidian. They can't bring themselves to review bomb their games. You could argue that this is actually hurting Obsidian because it hides necessary criticism from them.

As an ex-fan I agree.

The thing with Obsidian was that they were making inspired but flawed games, differently from everyone else who were making boring but competent games. They gave the vibe that they tried. They kept trying, kept coming close to true greatness, kept just falling short of it, with the sole and highly notable exception of FONV. I for one was willing to give them a lot of slack as long as I felt that they kept trying.

Deadfire, I think, was the turning point. It still has some of that old Obsidian feel to it, and sorry bros but a lot of it is thanks to Josh -- notably the colonial scenario autism and factions. However it also has a lot of nu-Obsidian: the romances, the Mary Sue companions, the shoehorned-in epicness disconnected from the autism, major mechanical changes made in the name of accessibility.

With TOW they've ditched the very thing that made them attractive and different. Now they're just another studio making things for the monies, with barely any creative ambitions left.

Harsh words, my friend. I don't disagree mostly, but damn. Disappointment really creates some bitter people (me included)

 

[Shadenuat]

a lot of players like:

* characters that are more exaggerated/over-the-top/campy/silly.

* weapon/armor/character design that is more exaggerated/fantastic.

* plots that pit good against evil (in one form or another).

* progression systems that are fundamentally easy to break.

Still didn't break him enough, still blames dumb shit on players.
Kingdom Come has no first three points and is loved by players.

 

[user]

Well, sales don't represent quality at all. So that is a moot point.

Quality IS one of the factors that help with sales.

 

[Atchodas]

major mechanical changes made in the name of accessibility.

Penetration and Damage Reduction systems shows the opposite tho, you cant penetrate reliably even when you min max

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Game is fine but it hit the unknowable, bad luck impossible to tell what went wrong invisible wall. Just wrong place wrong time, no one will ever decode the mystery.

 

[Atchodas]

Well, sales don't represent quality at all. So that is a moot point.

of course it does cRPG is niche market, games sells mostly by word of mouth, you make game like Deadfire and word of mouth is that its shit = less sales.

 

[Prime Junta]

word of mouth is that its shit

I don't think the word of mouth was that it's shit. More like "eh, it's okay I guess." That does not drive a lot of viral sales.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

No use trying to figure it out either. It happens occasionally in media and other things. Occasionally you do everything right and it still fails. Keep your head up Josh!