Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[LizardWizard]

Wouldn't be surprised if DLC's had negative profits too

If POE 2 was in the negative, they wouldn't be developing console ports. Also something Fig investbackers won't see a dime from.

 

[Nano]

If POE 2 was in the negative, they wouldn't be developing console ports.

If that was the case Underworld Ascendant wouldn't be getting console ports either. It's a matter of contracts, not profits. Pillars 2's console ports were announced before it was released on PC.

 

[LizardWizard]

Pillars 2's console ports were announced before it was released on PC.

Well after POE2 reached its funding goal

 

[Lacrymas]

Since BG1 is about a thousand times better than BG2, it is perfectly reasonable to take inspiration from it.

FTFY.

 

[Desiderius]

So you understand my point then.

I don't. Context matters. Also, fuck you.

Here's your context, dipshit:

Sawyer and his SJW buds are trying to (1) pander to an audience they hold in (2) undue (3) contempt.

I'm doing the opposite on all three counts.

His (and their) livelihood depends on their welcome. Mine doesn't.

 

[Atchodas]

You don't announce a fucking Switch port if you're bleeding money.

Why not ? Thats exactly what they should do and they did

 

[LizardWizard]

400% funding goal, FIG investbackers seeing no profit from console ports or DLC

Playing with house money

 

[Desiderius]

Here's the thing on cartoony.

WoW was cartoony because Warcraft was cartoony and Warcraft was cartoony because Total Annihilation took itself too seriously and everybody got the joke.

By now it's been grandfathered in.

Time for a new joke.

 

[JarlFrank]

Since BG1 is about a thousand times better than BG2, it is perfectly reasonable to take inspiration from it.

FTFY.

Too bad that BG1 is one of the most mediocre games in existence.

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

Fuck Josh Sawyer.

 

[Desiderius]

Sawyer and his SJW buds are trying to (1) pander to an audience they hold in (2) undue (3) contempt.

I'm doing the opposite on all three counts.

His (and their) livelihood depends on their welcome. Mine doesn't.

Where did I lose you KVK? I'm responding to this tweet:

"a lot of players like:

* characters that are more exaggerated/over-the-top/campy/silly.

* weapon/armor/character design that is more exaggerated/fantastic.

* plots that pit good against evil (in one form or another).

* progression systems that are fundamentally easy to break."

- Sawyer frustrated that the RNG hates him.

He's (intentionally?) missing the point about why Deadfire struggled with people like us. We do matter. A lot. Games in this genre I like sell great. Games I don't don't. Whatever the causality doesn't matter much.

Deadfire struggled because the decisions you make ultimately don't matter enough and that was a direct consequence of not understanding his player base in the exact way he continues to misunderstand us in this tweet. And that grows out of the exact same contempt that causes devs to expurgate classic male archetypes and replace them with over-the-top poz and/or Hamlet without the happy ending* shit like Eder's quest line.

* - grats, you got the joke.

 

[LizardWizard]

WoW was cartoony because Warcraft was cartoony and Warcraft was cartoony because Total Annihilation took itself too seriously and everybody got the joke.

Lost Vikings and Warcraft 1/2 were both cartoony. You can blame Metzen and Co.

 

[Tigranes]

Sawyer and his SJW buds are trying to (1) pander to an audience they hold in (2) undue (3) contempt.

I'm doing the opposite on all three counts.

His (and their) livelihood depends on their welcome. Mine doesn't.

Where did I lose you KVK? I'm responding to this tweet:

"a lot of players like:

* characters that are more exaggerated/over-the-top/campy/silly.

* weapon/armor/character design that is more exaggerated/fantastic.

* plots that pit good against evil (in one form or another).

* progression systems that are fundamentally easy to break."

- Sawyer frustrated that the RNG hates him.

He's (intentionally?) missing the point about why Deadfire struggled with people exactly like us. It struggled because the decisions you make ultimately don't matter enough and that was a direct consequence of not understanding his player base in the exact way he continues to misunderstand them in this tweet. And that grows out of the exact same contempt that causes devs to expurgate classic male archetypes and replace them with over-the-top poz and/or Hamlet without the happy ending shit like Eder's quest line.

You... you think hundreds of thousands of non-hardcore RPG customers said "Hey let me look at this new game, cool! Let's wait and do some research about exactly how much choice & consequences there is in this game! ... *several weeks later* ... wow, player testimonies after multiple playthroughs reveal that there isn't enough C&C, fuck I won't be buying this game then!'

I wish.

 

[Roguey]

Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 2 was also a direct sequel that continued the first game's story, but it starts like this:
- some weird creepy dude performs torturous experiments on you
- he tells you that he's doing this because you're the son/daughter of a god
- you have to escape from captivity

It's cool. It tells you the most important plot points (you're a Bhaalspawn, that makes you special and powerful, but also motivates some people to work against you). Short and concise, you know what's going on, the details that don't matter aren't mentioned until they matter. You are introduced to the main antagonist within the first minutes of the game. Nobody throws exposition at you, everything is experienced by your character directly. The only thing you're told is "You're a Bhaalspawn". The torture you are subjected to is shown in a cutscene. You explore Irenicus' lab and pick up notes and books along the way. You exit the lab, there's a fight with cowled wizards who take Imoen in for using magic. Your goal is to get her back and get revenge on Irenicus.

Zero exposition. Only directly experienced plot that gives you an incentive to go forwards.

You're praising a beginning that many people criticize for being too long and even necessitated the creation of a mod just so you could skip it.

 

[Desiderius]

You... you think hundreds of thousands of non-hardcore RPG customers said "Hey let me look at this new game, cool! Let's wait and do some research about exactly how much choice & consequences there is in this game! ... *several weeks later* ... wow, player testimonies after multiple playthroughs reveal that there isn't enough C&C, fuck I won't be buying this game then!'

I wish.

No, we wait for the game to be on sale and/or the bugs to be worked out. I bought Deadfire maybe three months in, P:K six. I'm not usually a powergamer (I ended up that way on P:K because it made my favorite class (Bard) OP as it went about pretty much disproving everything Sawyer is saying here), I wait for the word of mouth to see what to play unless it's a sequel to a game I like. I barely ended up buying Deadfire and played it a decent amount since I like all the subclasses and trying them out. But it was ultimately enough of a disappointment that I didn't give it the word of mouth I have for P:K.

That's the general way influence happens but I think it is also the case that when you make games for your peers you put a lot more into it than when you're trying to make something dumbed down enough for imaginary people you hold in contempt.

Bottom line: people enjoy figuring shit out and being duly rewarded for doing so. Deadfire doesn't do that enough on either end. Big Sellers do.

 

[user]

You... you think hundreds of thousands of non-hardcore RPG customers said "Hey let me look at this new game, cool! Let's wait and do some research about exactly how much choice & consequences there is in this game! ... *several weeks later* ... wow, player testimonies after multiple playthroughs reveal that there isn't enough C&C, fuck I won't be buying this game then!'

I wish.

No, but as others have said, lack of C&C is a pretty legit reason of why a casual whatsoever, even new to the genre, player, may have found the game boring. When the story and gameplay grips you by the balls and makes you care about what you do because, consequences, it is of little importance whether you are casual or hardcore.

 

[Nano]

No, but as others have said, lack of C&C is a pretty legit reason of why a casual whatsoever, even new to the genre, player, may have found the game boring. When story grips you by the balls and makes you care about what you do because, consequences, it is of little importance whether you are casual or hardcore.

Yes, this is why BioWare's and Bethesda's games have always flopped.

 

[Lichtbringer]

In the latest Matt Chat interview George Ziets said that Baldur's Gate 2 holds a very special place in his heart, which is a crass contrast to what Josh has said about the series. Imagine what could have been if George would have directed PoE instead of Josh.

Deadfire was commercial disaster I dont think enough of people actually realise this but Deadfire was such epic fail that they sold themselves to Microsoft

Obsidian was aiming for the D:OS big bucks. Feargus must have had dollar signs in his eyes and beautiful dreams of opening several new studios just like Larian is currently doing... but in the end they just got assimilated by the Borg. Such a shame.

 

[Tigranes]

The average gamer barely finishes games. It also seems unlikely that Deadfire's own narrative/C&C problems influence a difference of hundreds of thousands of sales of Deadfire. People just seem to love projecting their own opinions to say that's exactly why the game must have failed.

The most sensible route is to think that POE1's sales were artificially inflated far beyond the niche by the heady KS/retro boom, and then not only did that pass, many players probably didn't enjoy POE1 enough to want to buy POE2 for a combination of reasons.

 

[Desiderius]

Lost Vikings and Warcraft 1/2 were both cartoony. You can blame Metzen and Co.

Yes, that was my point. I'm not blaming anyone. It was a good joke. Non-autists know when it's time for a new one.

 

[user]

No, but as others have said, lack of C&C is a pretty legit reason of why a casual whatsoever, even new to the genre, player, may have found the game boring. When story grips you by the balls and makes you care about what you do because, consequences, it is of little importance whether you are casual or hardcore.

Yes, this is why BioWare's and Bethesda's games have always flopped.

Depends what you are offering to the audience you want to target and the product you are making. You aren't going for C&C in a typical short attention span mobile game because it is a different kind of animal, but if a crpg lacks C&C, what exactly are you left with?

 

[Desiderius]

No, but as others have said, lack of C&C is a pretty legit reason of why a casual whatsoever, even new to the genre, player, may have found the game boring. When story grips you by the balls and makes you care about what you do because, consequences, it is of little importance whether you are casual or hardcore.

Yes, this is why BioWare's and Bethesda's games have always flopped.

Which games are you talking about, exactly? Big library.

 

[Lacrymas]

You're praising a beginning that many people criticize for being too long and even necessitated the creation of a mod just so you could skip it.

Not only that, but it's routinely criticized* for being one of the worst intros to an RPG even here. It strips you of equipment, forces a canon party, removes any tomes you might have used on the companions and sets off the extremely irrelevant story of SoA.

*By me and Lilura, perhaps someone else too.

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

You're praising a beginning that many people criticize for being too long and even necessitated the creation of a mod just so you could skip it.

Not only that, but it's routinely criticized for being one of the worst intros to an RPG even here. It strips you of equipment, forces a canon party, removes any tomes you might have used on the companions and sets off the extremely irrelevant story of SoA.

Sounds like it's an intro that's pretty good in its narrative aspect, but not so much in the gameplay.

Then again, if you're playing Baldur's Gate 2 solely for the gameplay, then you are a moron and ought to be banned from video games.

 

[LizardWizard]

People mod Irenicus' dungeon because no one wants to play the tutorial for the upteenth time. Which just speaks volumes to how replayable BG2 was.