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Incline Josh Sawyer appreciation station

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
3,036
I don't think Pentiment did very well financially, it got some good reviews but almost no one else talked about it, sales must have been abysmal.
~152.4 k by VG Insights
~152.7 k by PlayTracker
~243.0 k by Gamalytic
~260.0 k by SteamSpy

That's pretty good for what it is, especially since it's also on gamepass.
A 150-200k sales is pretty bad for a game that was in development for 4+ years and had a decently sized team, even getting assistance from Microsoft after they acquired Obsidian. Indie games routinely sell more than that.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,709
A 150-200k sales is pretty bad for a game that was in development for 4+ years and had a decently sized team, even getting assistance from Microsoft after they acquired Obsidian. Indie games routinely sell more than that.
Pentiment's core team was 13 people (scaling up from an initial two). Sawyer compared it to Night in the Woods which was released in 2017.
~329.0 k by Gamalytic
~514.7 k by VG Insights
~846.9 k by PlayTracker
~1.17 M by SteamSpy

What do you think a narrative adventure made by up to a baker's dozen would have to sell to be successful? Here's what a pro said:

Whatever Schafer was communicating, fans adored it. Monkey Island sold “north of 100,000, far south of 1 million,” Grossman says. “Back in those days, a few hundred thousand was a giant smash hit.”
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
3,036
What do you think a narrative adventure made by up to a baker's dozen would have to sell to be successful? Here's what a pro said:

Whatever Schafer was communicating, fans adored it. Monkey Island sold “north of 100,000, far south of 1 million,” Grossman says. “Back in those days, a few hundred thousand was a giant smash hit.”
Emphasis on "back in those days." The Secret of Monkey Island came out 34 years ago. It took about a year to develop, not 4+ years like Pentiment. It was also more of an actual game than Pentiment, with an inventory and verb system, things which Pentiment lacks.

This pre-release interview with Sawyer specifically says it's been in development for 4 years. And Pentiment wouldn't release until half a year later.

https://www.ign.com/articles/what-is-obsidian-pentiment

Pentiment's core team was 13 people.
Not according to the credits. I noticed 3 different people are credited for "Particle Beam" for some reason, which suggests development wasn't terribly efficient.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/194426/pentiment/credits/windows/
 
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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
36,709
Not according to the credits. I noticed 3 different people are credited for "Particle Beam" for some reason, which suggests development wasn't terribly efficient.
Particle Beam were contractors obviously. Cost cutting.

Sawyer's adamant the core team at Obsidian ended up at 13, he wouldn't pull that number out of the air.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,623
I don't think Pentiment did very well financially, it got some good reviews but almost no one else talked about it, sales must have been abysmal.
~152.4 k by VG Insights
~152.7 k by PlayTracker
~243.0 k by Gamalytic
~260.0 k by SteamSpy

That's pretty good for what it is, especially since it's also on gamepass.
A 150-200k sales is pretty bad for a game that was in development for 4+ years and had a decently sized team, even getting assistance from Microsoft after they acquired Obsidian. Indie games routinely sell more than that.
What do you think a narrative adventure made by up to a baker's dozen would have to sell to be successful? Here's what a pro said:
Well, let's math it... Started with Sawyer and Kennedy, Obsidian art director, then grew to 13 people during development [1], let's lowball it to an average 60K a head [2] over 4 years, round it down to a cool $3 million, plus studio overheads and marketing, could go upwards of $3.5 million. The game's RRP is apparently twenty bucks, take that most generous 260K units from SteamSpy, that's $5.2 million minus Gabe's 30% cut, you get $3.6 million revenue. This is all rough speculation but, yeah, it probably didn't do gangbusters.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,709
This is all rough speculation but, yeah, it probably didn't do gangbusters.
Would require more precise math since 4 years is an overstatement:
A game that shipped? 3 years (Pentiment): 9 months in pre-production and ~27 months in development

Sawyer also claims the budget was so low that MS didn't care if it made money or not https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1706353632952848531
I don't have any numbers but I'm going to assume that more people played it through Game Pass and since the game was relatively low budget, its financial performance wasn't really important, tbh.

By 'company-wise' I meant you and the devs who made the game: did you have an X number of copies purchased (Not GP) that made you think: "we don't have to reach this, but if we do, it would be neat"?
No.
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
8,619
The existence of GamePass lets them go full copium every time one of their projects shits the bed. "Hey, it probably got some people to try out GamePass. You can't easily quantify that revenue!"
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
7,790
You guys are overthinking this. Pentiment was probably made on rev-share agreements and hiring contractors on Fiverr.

:smug:
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,623
Would require more precise math since 4 years is an overstatement:
A game that shipped? 3 years (Pentiment): 9 months in pre-production and ~27 months in development
Sawyer also claims the budget was so low that MS didn't care if it made money or not https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1706353632952848531
Sawyer's full 200K plus as little as 50K for Kennedy (since she's presumably doing other things) for 3 years, plus the other 11 staff at a low average of 60K each for two years - that's $2m plus your overheads (studio, VO, marketing etc.), upwards of $2.5m versus that optimistic $3.6m take. I'm not saying the thing flopped, just that I doubt it made Feargus break for an early Christmas. That tracks with Microsoft not giving a shit, a couple hundred grand up or down won't even bleep their radar, not on an asset like Obsidian which has bigger fish to fry for 'em.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
686
Sawyer also claims the budget was so low that MS didn't care if it made money or not https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1706353632952848531

"I don't have any numbers" and "relatively low budget" speaks volumes already. Sawyer is a creative and people like him usually leave all the money stuff to Feargus. So whether or not MS is happy about the game's performance is something he probably has no insight into.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,210
Location
Azores Islands
Sawyer also claims the budget was so low that MS didn't care if it made money or not https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1706353632952848531

"I don't have any numbers" and "relatively low budget" speaks volumes already. Sawyer is a creative and people like him usually leave all the money stuff to Feargus. So whether or not MS is happy about the game's performance is something he probably has no insight into.

So it was a vanity project to shut up Sawyer, his bosses couldn't care less if it made money or not as long as it kept Sawyer happy...

My question is why? What does Sawyer bring to the company to justify the trouble and expense to keep him around?
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
36,709
My question is why? What does Sawyer bring to the company to justify the trouble and expense to keep him around?
The success of Fallout New Vegas gave him a lot of clout. Pillars of Eternity (the first one) kept up that rep. Deadfire's long tail eventually vindicated his choices. Pentiment's critical success justifies its existence.

Also Feargus likes him and he rewards his friends.
 

flushfire

Augur
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
782
To be fair to Pentiment, basing off reviews and player count on Steam alone, it seems to have done decently compared to other narrative RPGs that came after Disco Elysium. It's got nothing on Disco's stats sure, but compare it to something like Sovereign Syndicate which apparently had a $1M budget and has just 158 peak players. Pentiment has similar stats to Sir Brante & Citizen Sleeper, and better than Gamedec, Roadwarden & Beautiful Desolation. Disco looks like a miracle compared to these games, nothing seems to have come close since.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
686
Sawyer also claims the budget was so low that MS didn't care if it made money or not https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1706353632952848531

"I don't have any numbers" and "relatively low budget" speaks volumes already. Sawyer is a creative and people like him usually leave all the money stuff to Feargus. So whether or not MS is happy about the game's performance is something he probably has no insight into.

So it was a vanity project to shut up Sawyer, his bosses couldn't care less if it made money or not as long as it kept Sawyer happy...

My question is why? What does Sawyer bring to the company to justify the trouble and expense to keep him around?

Sawyer cut back his involvement in Avowed and you can see the end result.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Josh likes working on stuff he likes, so I don't see him being all that much involved in Avowed.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Josh likes working on stuff he likes
Time to go indie then. Maybe he should become another stretch goal in kickstarter projects.
It's a carrot and stick question. If I know Paramo and Patel are leads, and Josh gets announced as a KS goal, I'm pulling out the wallet.

On the other hand I would back a KS goal that excludes Paramo and Patel from a project. See, there is value in them as well.
 
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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,709
Time to go indie then. Maybe he should become another stretch goal in kickstarter projects.

That would not give him a $210k/year salary. If he ever leaves Obsidian, he'll take the Avellone career path of being a high priced contractor/consultant (until cancellation).
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Josh doesn't have the clout Avellone has. Sawyer is only known on niche RPG forums for weirdos, so who is going to be excited if he's a kickstarter goal?
 

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