Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2, Temple of Elemental Evil & Silent Storm Retrospectives

[Lonely Vazdru]

I'm not an authority on XCOM (though I could be).

That's Lilura, alright.

 

[Chippy]

playing my games in chronological order

That's silly because there is too much garbage to sift through. For example, of the 255 RPGs listed in my Renaissance write-up ('96-2010), only a handful are worth a damn.

I'm trying to capture something. Like when you don't do something for a while, and it seems more vibrant when you do - I realised years ago that playing the IE games and Fallout 2death was making me a bit tone deaf/institutionalised to them. So I looked at my total library of games (took out the shit ones) and set about playing all of them in order. I did it once already and it took about 3 years. Going without playing a rennaissance game for 3 years, and then going back to it is pretty cool. I've also got another reason for doing it, but I'm not gonna tell becasue you might steal my idea.

Sometimes it's an advantage of not having a blog.

 

[Lilura]

octavius This may comes as a surprise to you, but CRPG Addict and I cover different eras.

I cover the Renaissance and he covers the vastly inferior so-called Golden Age. The games from the "Golden Age" are all but entombed and forgotten; they are barely played by anyone other than him. That's because they haven't aged well (jank) and don't run natively on current gen PCs anymore. Usually we need DOSBox, WinUAE or some specific form of emulation. On the other hand, Renaissance RPGs are still played, have active communties, and generally run natively on current gen hardware and operating systems.

Also, he generally posts one write-up for one game whereas I post between 10-100 and beyond for one game.

He's a broad generalist commentator whereas I focus like a laser-beam on the greatest of all-time.

He doesn't post in-depth analyses, statistical breakdowns on THAC0, ApR and other mechanics. I do.

See the difference?

For him, the games are archaeological discoveries; a dredging up of fossils and historical curiousities to exhibit to an audience most of whom will never play them. They go to his museum and take a gander, but they won't play them. The title menus look good in screencaps don't they, but let's see the game in motion, oh that waving scrolling that makes us nauseous, those tiny sprites that can barely be seen, that 4 color palette that gives us eye cancer; let's see its UI functioning; let's hear that mono chiptune that pierces our ears... no thanks!

 

[octavius]

octavius This may comes as a surprise to you, but CRPG Addict and I cover different eras.

I cover the Renaissance and he covers the vastly inferior so-called Golden Age. The games from the "Golden Age" are all but entombed and forgotten; they are barely played by anyone other than him. That's because they haven't aged well (jank) and don't run natively on current gen PCs anymore. Usually we need DOSBox, WinUAE or some specific form of emulation. On the other hand, Renaissance RPGs are still played, have active communties, and generally run natively on current gen hardware and operating systems.

Also, he generally posts one write-up for one game whereas I post between 10-100 and beyond for one game.

He's a broad generalist commentator whereas I focus like a laser-beam on the greatest of all-time.

He doesn't post in-depth analyses, statistical breakdowns on THAC0, ApR and other mechanics. I do.

See the difference?

For him, the games are archaeological discoveries; a dredging up of fossils and historical curiousities to exhibit to an audience most of whom will never play them. They go to his museum and take a gander, but they won't play them. They look good in little screencaps, but let's see it move, oh that waving scrolling that makes us nauseous, those tiny sprites can barely be seen, that 4 color palette that gives us eye cancer; let's see its UI functioning; let's hear that mono chiptune that pierces our ears... no thanks!

The Addict covers all eras, but by the very nature of his project and for temporal reasons he's currently in the Golden Age.

Anyway, I wasn't comparing you with him.
But if I should, one could say he goes where very few have gone before, while you trod the well worn path of least resistance. Both have it's uses, and I'm sure he enjoys his blog as much as you do yours. And he gets much more interesting comments, including from developers, some of which are even regulars, while you cater for the servile who pose no threat to your authority (or else...welcome to the Memory Hole).

 

[Lilura]

Anyway, I wasn't comparing you with him.

The implications of your posts (present and past) have been that he's more dedicated. Or better. Or something irrelevant like that. Well, maybe he is. He's got 10 times as many posts as I have, and has been blogging for three times as long. I don't care. I'm nothing like him and my commentary's nothing like his in form or in content.

But if I should, one could say he goes where very few have gone before, while you trod the well worn path of least resistance. Both have it's uses, and I'm sure he enjoys his blog as much as you do yours. And he gets much more interesting comments, including from developers, some of which are even regulars, while you cater for the servile who pose no threat to your authority (or else...welcome to the Memory Hole).

Most Golden Age developers are retired. What do creators do when they retire? Most of them are interested in their legacy: even wise people lay fame to the side last. Nothing wrong with that.

I've said it over and over again, though, I'm not interested in what developers think of their own games. All that matters is the game itself; what we play. That's criticism. The history of the game, the developer's anecdote -- it doesn't matter. The game is numero uno.

I think you underrate some of my write-ups, but that's fine. I've never been in this to make friends (though I have made a few).

 

[Lilura]

The Addict covers all eras, but by the very nature of his project and for temporal reasons he's currently in the Golden Age.

you trod the well worn path of least resistance.

Oh, and specifically in relation to this, yeah, so what happens when the addict gets to the likes of Infinity, Aurora and Electron; ToEE and JA2? Guess he's going to be trodding a path I've already worn into a veritable goat-track or even knee-deep ditch (300+ write-ups). At that point, will you level the same criticism at him or let him off Scott-free because a few devs posted anecdotes in his comments section?

 

[Jacob]

Lilura are you going to do a write up on Arcanum?

Yes, but I won't cover its story because I'm not a storyfag. I'll focus on its reactivity. I'd like to cover Age of Decadence, too. Probably the only "current gen" RPG worth a damn.

What's the problem with the more well-receivee current gen RPG, like Underrail?

 

[Lilura]

What's the problem with the more well-receivee current gen RPG, like Underrail?

My review is here. But basically, it's a cheap Fallout knock-off, it's got an unartistic smartphone UI, long loadtimes, slow walkspeed, poor dialogue, and it lacks many of the bells and whistles that RPGs 20 years precedent had (Fallout, Arcanum and Jagged Alliance 2). It's your typical amateur impression of the greats.

But what really annoyed me was how the dev just brushed aside complaints of the slow walkspeed. I utterly abhor slow-paced current gen RPGs.

 

[octavius]

The implications of your posts (present and past) have been that he's more dedicated. Or better. Or something irrelevant like that. Well, maybe he is. He's got 10 times as many posts as I have, and has been blogging for three times as long. I don't care. I'm nothing like him and my commentary's nothing like his in form or in content.

You seem to care.
Anyway, to be fair I think your approach is saner and safer. After all he has to play some games he obviously hates. But replaying the same games over and over is not very fun in the long run either. I had a period I used to do that. For me playing games chronologically has worked out great. I'm not "forced" to play game I don't like, and I've now played many great games I would otherwise have missed.
I'm now in the Renaissance era, and messing with DOSBox or even worse - WinUAE - is not very tempting now, but it was no problem when I was in Golden Age mode.

Most Golden Age developers are retired. What do creators do when they retire? Most of them are interested in their legacy: even wise people lay fame to the side last. Nothing wrong with that.

I've said it over and over again, though, I'm not interested in what developers think of their own games. All that matters is the game itself; what we play. That's criticism. The history of the game, the developer's anecdote -- it doesn't matter. The game is numero uno.

I have to disagree on that. I think it's interesting to know where the developers came from, and all kinds of trivia about their game that you would never know otherwise. Also a guy like Corey Cole has lots of interesting comments about the game industry in general.

I think you underrate some of my write-ups, but that's fine. I've never been in this to make friends (though I have made a few).

I have not rated your write-ups.
But your blog is not one I follow regularly, both because I can't comment freely and because it's too detailed and focused. To me it has more value to be used as a reference, so I did check it out while playing JA2 (very incomplete at the time) and the BG games, but as a "daily newspaper" CRPG Addict's blog is much more interesting.

 

[Jacob]

What's the problem with the more well-receivee current gen RPG, like Underrail?

My review is here. But basically, it's a cheap Fallout knock-off, it's got an unartistic smartphone UI, long loadtimes, slow walkspeed, poor dialogue, and it lacks many of the bells and whistles that RPGs 20 years precedent had (Fallout, Arcanum and Jagged Alliance 2). It's your typical amateur impression of the greats.

But what really annoyed me was how the dev just brushed aside complaints of the slow walkspeed. I utterly abhor slow-paced current gen RPGs.

I don't disagree. Underrail is a slog. I think the new gen era might have the burden to make the game long because long playtime is in high demand these days. Not that a long game is necessarily bad, but in their attempts to create a long game they ended up making games that feels slow. Meanwhile with the actual greats repeated playthrough feels much faster. But I think mixing more tactical combat with Fallout style RPG has merits and ended up being a game that is more than a "cheap Fallout knock-off"

 

[Lilura]

But your blog is not one I follow regularly, both because I can't comment freely and because it's too detailed and focused.

Anyone can comment, but yes, not freely, if by freely you mean opposing the blog's narrative/agenda or throwing in some snarky or trollish remark. That's fine on public forums like the 'Dex, where it's commonplace and even celebrated, but not on a private blog. You walk into someone's house and start criticizing their values, see what happens to you.

The Addict doesn't have a solid standpoint that he digs into and doesn't deviate from. Most of the games he's playing for the first time so he doesn't care if someone unfairly criticizes Golden Age RPG #56 because he just moves on to the next. He has no horse in the race.

But let's say he grew up with an RPG, has played it on and off for 20 years, has posted 130 write-ups for it and built his blog on it, and suddenly commenters start hurling insults his way as they attempt to devalue its legacy based on degenerate current gen fads, trends and "sensibilities"?

That's the difference.

The Addict is a chronicler and generalist commentator that buzzes from one game to the next. He doesn't live the games like many Renaissance veterans have. As a generalist, he's an expert on none of them. It's just, "Look at this curiousity, and now, look at this one." And his audience follows him around, making the odd observation of their own. How quaint.

To me it has more value to be used as a reference, so I did check it out while playing JA2 (very incomplete at the time) and the BG games, but as a "daily newspaper" CRPG Addict's blog is much more interesting.

Yes, because he chops and changes so much. As a rule he doesn't write multipart retrospectives, he doesn't write pro-tip analyses, and he doesn't crusade to uphold legacies.

My blog isn't a follow me cheersquad blog. Its traffic comes from specific organic searches: people searching for concrete information and answers. No one goes to my blog wondering what curiousity is going to be shown to them next. It's either they want a specific answer or they're checking to see if Part XII has been posted.

 

[CaffeineConquistador]

TL;DR is CRPGAddict is a relatable human and Lilura is an unapologetic turbo sperg douche.

 

[Lilura]

The Addict covers all eras

Not yet he hasn't. You are crediting him for something he hasn't come remotely close to doing yet.

 

[CaffeineConquistador]

Now mind you, I do respect the “fuck’em all attitude”.

 

[Roguey]

TL;DR is CRPGAddict is a relatable human and Lilura is an unapologetic turbo sperg douche.

I'll take the sperg who's 100% about games over the neurotypical who interrupts his crpg blog to shill his political candidate of choice.

 

[Jason Liang]

Hey Lilura what about Darkest Dungeon

 

[Jason Liang]

So what you're saying is, PS:T deserves to be rated above Fallout, Fallout 2 and Arcanum?

PS:T doesn't even deserve to be in the top 10.

This is what a proper agenda-based top 10 looks like:

1. Jagged Alliance 2
2. Fallout
3. Arcanum
4. Fallout 2
5. Temple of Elemental Evil
6. Icewind Dale
7. Icewind Dale 2
8. Baldur's Gate
9. Mask of the Betrayer
10. Wizardry 8

I count 4 games with shit combat on that list, none of which deserve top 10, and neither does BG1.

JA2 is not an RPG. Tres desolee.

This is the first time I've known that you prefer BG1 to BG2. Would like to know your reasoning.

 

[Lilura]

This is the first time I've known that you prefer BG1 to BG2. Would like to know your reasoning.

BG vs. BG2.

That post has garnered a shit-ton of views and generated big-league butthurt. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[Jason Liang]

sigh someone summarize Lilura's argument for me as her blog was banned by the CCP.

Also Lilura please vote in the Troika poll, thanks!

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Tres desolee.

Désolée ? Tits or GTFO !

 

[Jason Liang]

Tres desolee.

Désolée ? Tits or GTFO !

Cest dommage!

 

[Syme]

sigh someone summarize Lilura's argument for me as her blog was banned by the CCP.!

Probably faster to just copy & paste the entire page. Let's see if this works:

Spoiler

Baldur's Gate vs. Baldur's Gate 2
(BG1 vs. BG2)

Note to self: Add in Prologue comparison: lengthy, unskippable and tiresomely over-wrought BG2 prologue of Chateau Irenicus versus the almost entirely skippable BG prologue of Candlekeep.

Update: Second half of the post is about playing BG in the BG2 engine, which is what degenerates prefer.

You might find it odd to find a post highlighting the changes and additions made in BioWare's sequel to Baldur's Gate; that is Shadows of Amn and the Throne of Bhaal expansion. Afterall, not only is the Bhaalspawn Saga on the verge of being two decades old, but it's also undergone some serious modding in that time (see here for BG and here for BG2).

So, the question is, does anyone care anymore about the differences between the original BG and its original sequel?

Well, I'd like to think such a subject can still garner interest among veterans and newbies alike, and it's not as if write-ups preexist detailing such changes and additions. Furthermore, this post seeks to evaluate whether they were good or bad for the Bhaalspawn Saga, in addition to simply enumerating them.

So let's get to it, shall we?

Wait. Let's begin with a conclusion that will no doubt annoy the BG2 fanboys and munchkins: BG > BG2. Low level AD&D campaigns are by that very fact superior to mid-point/epic ones. BG is about open-world exploration and survival whereas BG2 is about bulldozing the opposition, from the Chateau to the Throne. BG did almost everything better. Moreover, the campaign was developed in parallel with the engine, making it by far the greater technical and organisational achievement by then-fledgling developer, BioWare.

BG2 recycled so much from BG (as sequels often do) [1], but it didn't add very much of substance. And for those coming off BG, it was a disappointment. It whisked you away to prison, took almost all of your gear from you as a result, arbitrarily enforced a "canon party" and killed off some companions and wrote immersion-breaking dialogue for others, such as "I remember you; aren't you dead?" Spent the three Wisdom Tomes on Jaheira? Well, they're wiped.

[1] Some rando forum scrub once cited the wall trap in Spellhold as being a great feature of BG2. Unbeknownst to this rando forum scrub, the wall trap was first added in Durlag's Tower of BG:TotSC.

Basically, BioWare didn't respect the choices made by the player in the original. Instead, their preference was to wipe the slate clean and funnel the player down a linear path of cutscene after cutscene and intrusive banter after intrusive banter in order to appeal to a new audience over the one that got them to where they were in the first place.

The only people that think BG2 > BG are the newbies who began with BG2, which is sort of like watching Empire Strikes Back before the first Star Wars, or reading Two Towers before the Fellowship (the Bhaalspawn Saga is officially a trilogy, with ToB being its third installment). Don't listen to the idiots on buzzfeeds who recommend newbies skip BG and go straight to BG2. Again, only idiots that played BG2 first would make such a puerile, senseless and wholly misguided recommendation.

And yes, I would have rewritten the main plot of the campaign. BG2 would have started in the Cloud Peaks (south of Nashkel) and had the party journeying to Athkatla in Amn. Let's not pretend that it would have been difficult to make a grand campaign wherein the player was never kidnapped by Irenicus. The SoA plot is little more than a marathon-length diversion from the real story: that of the Bhaalspawn, Bhaal-lore and the Prophecy of Alaundo. And ToB is just an epic banality, a rush-job.

People go on about Mage duels in BG2; well, BG invented them. The duel with Davaeorn is still my fave Mage duel in the Saga, not only due to the limitations imposed by low level parties, but also because he employs pre-buffing (to avoid being backstabbed) and Dimension Door (in order to teleport about). Most BG2 mages are just standing around unbuffed, waiting for a chunking, and BG2 cut out Dimension Door due to its sequence-breaking potential. So now - if they survive the backstab opener (which they won't unless they're stoneskinned, which is rare) - Mages just stand there like idiots casting spells; they have almost no mobility of their own; they go invisible with Shadow Door and reappear in the exact same spot because they want you to give them that chunking. Sad. Even Dark Side did more for spellcaster mobility. Oh, and The Grey Clan proved that you can employ contingencies in BG, too.

I'll end with a little thing, but it's important to me. The sound effects are far superior in BG as well. The sound of steel-on-steel or dagger into flesh. The chunking sounds. All are much more impacting to the ear. It sounds like a battle. A flail is a ball and chain, right? So when you swing it, you can hear the chain. Not in BG2, though. In BG, you can hear the drawing back of a bow. Not in BG2, though. In BG, you can hear the chain links of your armor rustling as you move around. Not in BG2, though. BG2 couldn't even get the little things right. And all the little things add up, as this post shows.

Ok, let's go through the changes and additions made by BG2:

• Fundamental Campaign Design. BioWare's representation of the city of Athkatla, the country of Amn, and the exotic locales that stretch out beyond the bounds of civilization (and beneath it), is perhaps without peer. The sprawling Shadows of Amn world map speaks for itself.


.
An undeniable highlight - indeed, the prime virtue - of the campaign is how its second and third chapters offer non-linear exploration of a quest-dense urban hub, Athkatla, but the Prologue aka "Chateau Irenicus", Chapter One, and Chapters Four to Seven are comparatively linear affairs, as is the Throne of Bhaal expansion campaign.

There's that word: linear. Both BG and BG2 have linear stories but the former's world is much more open for exploration purposes. The world map is realistic in its layout (contiguous), in that you move from one area to another, in the required direction, in order to get to your destination, all the while under the threat of waylay and fatigue. It feels more like a journey, an adventure. It feels like the Fellowship. In BG2, you just click the map marker and get dropped off to your destination as if by teleportation; rare scripted waylay aside, you don't work to get there. In fact, it's exactly like Oblivion's fast travel and that's not an exaggeration in the slightest.

Thus, BG is superior in campaign design but it's hard to deny Athkatla as a crowning achievement of quest-dense exploration, isn't it? But then, Baldur's Gate city was just as impressive for its time (as anyone who played it when it came out knows), and once you finally reached the city, after all the exploration in the wilderness, it was just as overwhelming how the campaign shifted into an entirely new phase, yet still let you explore the wilderness whenever you wanted to.



You had to find the sidequests in BG (sometimes through rumors at the inn, sometimes there was no lead at all) but in BG2 sidequests found you. Not that BG didn't have its fair share of force-talking and hand-holding, but in BG2 Charnames couldn't walk around Athkatla for 10 seconds without being spoon-fed by quest-givers and irrelevant retards. It was intrusive and tiresome. Sidequests were even forced upon you by way of scripted waylays.

Also, Athkatla's areas don't even line up structurally. Try and picture Athkatla - as a whole - in your mind. You can't, because it's just a haphazard mish-mash with no thought gone into it. The map reflects that. Look above. See how the districts don't line up? Athkatla's areas are chambered, and completely separate, with no link to or suggestion of the others. Just like the whole campaign.

Nothing is gradual in BG2. It's just, you're here now. Now, you're here. From forest to desert, just like that. Again, no sense of landscape or of journeying.

Oh look, it's an actual city with full continuity and logic:




ARs extracted and spliced together by Yours Truly

Logically, a sewer system runs beneath Baldur's Gate. But only the Temple district of Athkatla needs a sewer system, seemingly. In fact, there is only one non-obvious link in Athkalta: the one that takes you from Mekrath's lair to the Docks.

• Wilderness Area Design. BG2 is bereft of barren wilderness areas: 8 of the 11 Amnish outskirts areas are forests; 11 of the 11 are situated in woodland areas. On the other hand, BG hosts one dozen barren areas, not just forests. Also, many of BG's areas feature height-mapped terrain which not only adds visual variety but can also be employed for tactical purposes. There are almost no examples of height-mapped terrain in the BG2 wilderness; mostly, it's dead-flat.

Examples of barren areas in BG. Note the height-mapping on the left and right.



More examples of height-mapped terrain:



• Reactivity. The sequel added more in the way of gender-, alignment-, stat-, class- and race-based reactivity, though it's still disappointing how little of it exists in the Bhaalspawn Saga. For example, evil Charnames will get the choice of poisoning the Druid Grove or not, which won't be an option for Good or Neutral Charnames. And another example: Charname Thieves won't be able to join Bodhi against the Shadow Thieves in respect to the Guild War. And that's about it. There are almost no stat-checks in dialogue and most of the Charisma-based ones were devalued by gifting the player a ring that sets their Charisma to 18 in Chapter One, which is just stupid.

Original BG reactivity has been covered in multiple posts, beginning here.

• Races, Classes & Kits. (My recent class write-up is here). Here is what BG2 added:

• One new Race: Half-orc.
• Three new base Classes: Sorcerer, Barbarian & Monk.
• One new Specialist Mage: Wild Mage.
• 21 Kits aka Prestige Classes: For Fighter we have Berserker, Wizard Slayer, Kensai; for Ranger Archer, Stalker, Beastmaster; for Paladin Cavalier, Inquisitor, Undead Hunter; for Cleric Priest of Talos, of Helm, of Lathander; for Druid Totemic Druid, Shapeshifter, Avenger; for Thief Assassin, Bounty Hunter, Swashbuckler; and for Bard Blade, Jester, Skald.

The question is: Does this or does this not constitute a good addition to the Bhaalspawn Saga? Overall, I'd answer in the affirmative but you could certainly omit quite a few of the above and nothing of value would be lost. What does the Sorcerer add that Mage doesn't already cover, for example - other than an easier solo wank? [1] Barbarian is way cooler than Berserker. What on earth are Wizard Slayer and Inquisitor doing in BG? They are useless and OP garbage, respectively - and boring as hell to play. The Druid and Cleric PRCs are almost wholly dross, too.
[1] It's not so much the extra spells you get to cast per day (that's actually meaningless to the rest-spamming solo player of a Sorc) but rather over-leveling yourself and having natural access to high level key spells the scrolls for which aren't available to Mages until much later in the campaign; the campaign not balanced relative to the spell range at your disposal. Any fool can solo a Sorc; it just takes foreknowledge of what the key spells are. And then, cast them over and over again at key points.

My other problem with prestige/new classes is how they are implemented: the fact that they are selectable at first level makes little sense and renders the base classes redundant. Short of obvious dual-classing requirements, why be a stock Fighter when you can be a Barbarian? Why be a Paladin when you can be a Cavalier or Undead Hunter? In fact, why be anything BASIC when you can be PRESTIGIOUS? There really is little reason, and it would have been better if PRCs were classes that you worked towards, as in NWN, but I guess the Infinity Engine wasn't quite up to the task and BioWare did the best they could at the time.

Of course, in most cases, adding PRCs, extra base classes and the extra race to the original Baldur's Gate, completely imbalances a campaign whose combat encounters were not designed with the additions in mind, but that's a problem for EE, Tutu and BGT retards to wallow in, and original game balance will forever elude them until they play the original as it was intended by BioWare.

Not to put too finer point on it, but what kind of RETARD eschews an original experience as intended by the original devs in favor of mods and remakes shat out 10 years later by a developer who doesn't know Jack about game balance, disrespected BG with their fan fiction-level drivel, and removed original artwork just because it didn't fit their current gen "sensibilities"? I write off anyone who prefers the "enhanced" version over the original; they are screened out from expressing their bad taste on my blog.

• The experience point cap (XP cap) has been increased from the humble 89,000 (BG) and 161,000 (TotSC) to the epic 2,950,000 for Shadows of Amn, taking the party to 17th-23rd level depending on their class. However, the Throne of Bhaal expansion further increases the XP cap to a whopping 8,000,000, meaning that Fighters, Barbarians, Clerics, Monks, Thieves and Bards can expect to reach 40th level, Paladins and Rangers 34th, and Mages, Sorcerers and Druids 31st. Essentially, Godhood.

A lot of people are against epic-level campaigns because they get pretty crazy (I prefer low level ones, too), but let's face it: the plot takes Charname to Godhood so the XP cap must as well. The prime issue with the XP cap is that SoA characters may end up over-leveled due to ToB increasing the XP cap for SoA in addition. As is the case with almost every expansion ever made for an RPG, the devs forget about game balance for the original campaign itself.

• The companion pool has been reduced from 25 to 17; however, the companions are more fleshed out and offer more in the way of banters, interjections and personal quests. In a few cases romance is an option, too. In fact, constantly being interrupted by the petty concerns of companions can grow a little tiresome for people who just want to play the game. About to face off against a red dragon in its lair? Put that on hold: Aerie wants to cry on your shoulder about the loss of her wings; this currently takes priority over dodging dragonsbreath. The banters are ridiculously intrusive and way over the top.

Note that the deeper companion pool of BG facilitates themed parties. There are far more party composition options in BG. Veterans can also accept the "chunking" of a couple of companions, knowing that there will be other companions to fill in for them later on. +8 companions makes a big difference in this mode of play. For more info on companions refer to the Party Composition & Companions section in Part III of my in-depth retrospective.

I prefer more companions with less waffle but I acknowledge I'm in the minority in this respect, even among veterans. I wouldn't care if romances were never a thing: in the first place, it was the fans writing their own that "inspired" BioWare to include them officially for the sequel - and RPGs were never the same again, as can clearly be seen by anyone who has eyes that can see, with the proliferation of what are essentially relationship sims that have little in common with the likes of classic Baldur's Gate and Fallout.




• The spell ranges have been increased from 46 divine and 72 arcane spells to 126 divine and 200 arcane spells. To top it off, you now have access to Contingencies, Triggers and Sequencers. Arcane spells already scribed to your spellbook are also eraseable; that is, if you have reached your "spells scribable per circle limit" (modified by INT) you may erase one of your (less useful) spells and memorize another, more useful one, in its place. Moreover, scribing spell scrolls to your spellbook now results in experience point rewards based on the level of the scroll. Along with the erase feature and the fact that there are some merchants who sell scrolls in infinite quantities, this is opens up potential for abuse (though it is mindlessly repetitive so I doubt many players are going to engage in it).

For more info on the basics of Arcane & Divine spellcasting, please refer to their respective sections in Part II and IV of my in-depth retrospective.

—Mirror Image no longer protects against all damage until every illusion has been dispersed. Now, there is a chance you will be hit.

Despite the amount of deadweight in the circles and the OP nature of spells in general, I'm all for more spells that facilitate experimentation and mix up encounter outcomes. I mean, a strong argument could be made that BG2 offers the most interesting spellcasting duels in the genre, and a lot of that has to do with its expanded arcane and divine repertoire.

Some BG2 enemies can instantly fire spell triggers/contingencies of their own such as the Mage-only "Tattoo of Power". These are unavailable to the player, and are triggered by scripts. Demons, Beholders and certain epic enemies also instantly fire abilities from scripts, and can do so infinitely (Death gaze, Beholder rays, and even conventional spells). None of these are limited to casting times.

• Summoning Cap. Remember how in BG you could summon armies of skeletons, animals & monsters? Well, with the notable exception of Wild Surges and obvious exploits, summons are now capped at just five units. To make up for that a couple of summon spells scale with caster level such as Animate Dead & Spider Spawn. Plus, you can gate in demonic and celestial juggernauts such as pitfiends and planetars, and summon powerful minions such as mord swords, invisible stalkers and elemental princes.


While a lot less fun it's obviously a good idea to limit the number of summons, especially when you have the likes of a Planetar at your disposal flaunting a Silver Sword that inflicts on-hit vorpal at 6 ApR. Of course, Wild Mages and exploits will allow you to break through the BG2 cap, anyway.

• Find Familiar. This first circle arcane spell allows Charname-only Mages, Sorcerers and Bards to summon an alignment-flavored familiar with a few tricks up its sleeve such as scouting and utility skills. In addition its master receives a one-off and permanent HP bonus equal to 50% of the familiar's HPs. A Pseudo Dragon, for example, will grant you +12 HPs if summoned in SoA and +24 HPs if summoned in ToB. I advise keeping the familiar tucked away in your backpack because your spellcaster incurs a permanent one-point penalty to Constitution if it dies.—Sorcerers should cast Find Familiar from a scroll rather than wasting a choice on it.

A pretty token addition to the Saga, aren't they? Most people just summon their Familiar for the one-off HP boost, keep it tucked away in their backpack so that it doesn't die, and then forget about it.

• Rest Until Healed (optional). Rest to have your HP pool fully replenished AND be cured of poison and disease (which is absurd).

A degenerate, newbie feature that reduces the need for clerics and consumable use. As such, I'm totally against it, optional or not.

• Max HPs on level up & 100% spell-scribing success (optional). Simply reduce the difficulty to below Core.

Two more degenerate options that should not be options. You're basically writing off the main function of Potions of Genius in respect to the latter. Learn to buff and learn to deal with failure; it's part of the game and its balance.

Many people pretend they are too hardcore to take advantage of the above two options, but secretly do anyway.

• Dual-classing to and from Specialists is banned. Remember how you could dual-class Imoen to Conjurer or Xzar to Cleric assuming you gave him a Tome of Understanding? Well, you can't do that anymore. Flavorless Generalists, only.

A side-effect of adding PRCs is that now players are deprived of a Core AD&D rule that they got used to in BG. Retarded.

• Inventory management has been reduced with the addition of containers; namely, Scroll Cases, Gem Bags, quivers, and even a Bag of Holding. Calling up Inventory mode pauses the game by default though this may be toggled in baldur.ini.

I don't like Bags of Holding because they trivialize the encumbrance mechanic and inventory management. If you can't carry it with the additional inventory slots of six party members then you don't deserve to have it. Either sell some stuff off or do without. Plus, items placed in a Bag of Holding are largely forgotten and who can find anything in them, anyway?

• Archery is not all-powerful. Elemental arrows have been nerfed; most notably, the Acid Arrows are down to 1d3 from 2d6. Detonation Arrows and Arrows of Dispelling are rare, too. Quivers for arrows and bolts are double-capacity.
Refer to the Archery section in Part II of my in-depth retrospective for the many reasons why archery was OP in Baldur's Gate.
—Budding archers are going to want to choose the Archer kit and get their hands on the Tuigan bow or Sling of Seeking as quickly as possible.

I don't see a need for nerfing arrows, but I'm not overly fussed by it because archery is still fun and effective.

• Class-based Strongholds. Each base class has access to a stronghold upon completion of a certain quest, each of which offer a series of quests that are unrelated to the main quest. These are ok for shits n gigs and a bit of extra cash flow, but not much else.

Yep, these are basically mini-games that are not integrated meaningfully into the plot, and so I wouldn't care if they never existed, just like everything else in BG2 that is tacked-on (familiars, kits, romances, strongholds, HLAs). That said, the Mage stronghold at least nets you an ADHW scroll and a second Ring of Wizardry (the other one is found as part of Jaheira's personal quest).

• Expanded Crafting. Most players are on the lookout for components that may be forged into extremely powerful items by Cromwell in SoA and Cespenar in ToB. BG offered crafting in the form of Taerom Thunderhammer being able to forge you Ankheg Armor from an Ankheg Shell. That was it, and that was enough.

Does Crom/Cesp crafting really add anything of substance? Might as well just appropriately itemize the item in question instead of making the player hang on to bits and bobs and jump through annoying dialogue hoops during the forging process. Crafted items are better rewarded through quests that add lore and context to the components, as opposed to just randomly littering the campaign with them. For example, no reason is given as to why an enemy is holding one half of a mythical item, other than he, she or it is epic. Retarded.

• Utility Experience Points. As if quest and kill experience point rewards were not enough, experience points are now also dished out for opening locks, disarming traps and scribing spell scrolls to your spellbook. The last one can REALLY add up and tilt the balance in your favor in the early going. Spell-scribing is also open to abuse: find stacks of spell scrolls and Memorize, Erase, Rinse repeat. (Some merchants sell infinite quantities of high-level spell scrolls.)

uXP is ok, though I would have significantly increased the XP for disarming traps and picking locks in order to add more value to having a Thief in the party; BG2 devalued Thieves in a variety of ways. How? By not making traps deadly enough, by allowing the arcane repertoire to replace thief skills to a large degree, and by making almost every lock physically breakable (every plot-critical lock is definitely bash-able with solid Str scores which all warriors will have).

• Weapon Proficiencies & Styles. General proficiencies have been removed and replaced with specific entries; f.e, there is no longer a Large Sword proficiency. Instead, Large Sword is broken up into Longsword, Bastard Sword, Katana, Scimitar & Two-handed Sword.

To me, this makes little sense and adds nothing to the Saga's balance: the weapons are not so different as to require separate training; not in a fantasy RPG such as this, which also does not itemize all weapons fairly, as NWN does. It's a completely unnecessary change.

• Weapon Styles have also been added, the most powerful of which is the Two Weapon Style aka dual-wielding, which when combined with +ApR weapons and Improved Haste bestows an epic attack rate almost straight out of the blocks. Also, the proficiency table has been nerfed.

I didn't like how the proficiency table was nerfed: Fighters are cheated out of Grandmastery in BG and when they finally get it in BG2, it's nerfed? This caused me to become butthurt. I would much rather a campaign balanced for True Grandmastery rather than fail with all this +ApR nonsense.

Let's think about it: there is no reason for 10 ApR. The BG max of 5 ApR is enough. The animations look correct at 5 ApR and and their accompanying weapon sounds are not lost (the sound of drawing a bowstring, the sound of the chain and ball on a flail). It would have been better to simply itemize more powerful weapons, and keep the ApR at 5. 10 ApR is just munckinism.

BioWare's BG2 weapon balance is completely out of whack and I wonder what they were smoking when they coded them. Thankfully, mods are capable of bringing it all back to the way it was in BG.

• High Level Abilities: At epic levels (usually around 3,000,000 total XP) each base class gains their own HLA pool to make selections from during the level-up process.

There are 43 HLAs in total. Some of them are obscenely OP, others are of questionable utility, and others yet are utterly uninspiring and indeed useless. HLAs feel tacked on because they are.

• Extra Thief Skills. Stealth has been separated into Hide in Shadows & Move Silently skills. In addition two very powerful skills have been added: Detect Illusion & Set Traps.
For a rundown on the basics please refer to the Stealth & Theft section in Part II of my in-depth retrospective.

Not against the added skills, though it seems pointless to break Stealth in two (even if that's as per AD&D rules - BioWare broke a lot of rules, anyway).

• Epic foes. Tired of gibberlings, xvarts, tasloi and kobolds? Well, you will be excited to learn that the sequel introduces goblins and orcs from Icewind Dale! Hah! But you will also be pitted against dragons, demons, devils, giants, golems, illithid, beholders, drow, vamps, high level mages and liches! Prepare to be tormented by an epic repertoire of enemy abilities such as dragon-fear and wing-buffet, demi-lich Imprisonment, mindflayer psionics, Mage Time Stop and Level Drain. Luckily, your spells, items and HLAs will see you through.

• Extremely powerful items. (My recent weapon write-up is here). Keep an eye out for items that confer blanket immunities; that is, when equipped they bestow (f.e) mind shield or freedom status. Also be on the lookout for weapons with on-hit elemental damage (to bypass Stoneskin) and on-hit negative status effects. The Flail of Ages & Celestial Fury are prime examples: their respective Slow & Stun effects are devastating and bypass MR. The flail does not even allow a saving throw, meaning there is no way for the enemy to resist its crippling Slowing effect.

Demi-gods need to wield godly weapons and have access to godly items, but BG2 still went way overboard. The Robe of Vecna being available in Chapter One is a prime example, in that it gives you an unfair advantage over every rival spellcaster in the campaign, one that you didn't even have to work for beyond getting some cash-flow going. Baldur's Gate had far superior itemization balance, overall; for example, it felt rewarding to find that Large Shield +2 deep down in Durlag's Tower.

• Overworld waylays. YOU HAVE BEEN WAYLAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF. Unlike BG which drew randomly from preset pools of potentially lethal arrangements, area-transition ambushes are entirely scripted, and largely benign, in BG2. Waylays in both Athkatla and its outskirts are not so much about offering up a challenge as they are about giving the player gold, several arcane scrolls and a magical weapon such as Arbane. And even a highly rewarding quest.

BG waylays included Ogre Mages, Basilisks and Wyverns. Repeat after me: Basilisks. In fact, between the The Lion's Way and Friendly Arm Inn, it is possible for first-level Charnames to be waylaid by several archer-bandits sporting 2 ApR each. BG2 waylays are a joke compared to this.

• Improved Pathing Routine. While still not perfect it's a damn sight better than what it was in Baldur's Gate. All units benefit from a movement speed increase, too.

A great and welcome enchancement to the Infinity Engine, though it does weaken ranged attacks a bit.

• Mega-Dungeons. The differences between Durlag's Tower and Watcher's Keep have already been highlighted by me in The Tower vs. the Keep. In short, the Tower shits on the Keep.

• Lore Descriptions. Compare a humble +3 weapon lore description (BG) with an epic +5 weapon lore description (BG2).

◦ World's Edge (SW2H07, two-handed sword, BG: TotSC): THAC0 +3, 1d10 +3 slashing.
This is a legendary weapon of heroic proportions, especially among the far-northern tribes of barbarians. Champion after champion has wielded this blade against countless enemies, and the blood it has spilled could fill a small sea. History will not admit that such a blade could be forged and each consecutive owner seems to tie its origin to whatever creation myth they believe. The most grandiose of these tales is that of a great chieftain who sailed to the cliffs that supposedly bordered the world. There he reached into the void, and his will shaped the blade from nothing. Whatever the truth, in the right hands this sword is a fearsome thing.

◦ Gram the Sword of Grief (SW2H17 [basic], SW2H18, [upgraded], two-handed sword [craft], BG2: ToB).

◦ THAC0 +5, 1d10 +5 slashing, on-hit 10% chance of 2d12 poison.
This is one of the many weapons of the great hero Siegfried. The blade is particularly sharp and well balanced, and in a certain light one can see the faint image of a serpent within the hilt.
◦ THAC0 +5, 1d10 +5 slashing, on-hit 10% chance of 2d12 poison, on-hit Level Drain save vs. death at -5, 5% MR.
Siegfried's fearsome blade is even more powerful with the Heart of the Damned set into its pommel.


It's not that you can easily make Gram sound better than WE; BioWare just should have put more effort in. Literally any twaddler could churn out that Gram "lore" (if you want to call it that). Foebane, Blackrazor, Angurvadal and Usuno's Blade have two-sentence lore descriptions. Two-sentence lore decriptions for epic ToB wields. Now, compare Varscona (a +2 longsword from BG):

Blades of this type were long used by Sharran priests during the sacrificial rites of "Feast of the Moon" ceremonies. Legends say that, when she passed on, the remains of this sword's wielder were mummified and the blade was placed within her chest as a symbol of power. In the first stage of a long forgotten ritual, she was to have been exhumed in a season, born again in some new form. Unfortunately, cult wars killed the few that knew of her existence; her tomb became a prison where she was forgotten, and there she developed a rage that bordered on insanity. Her grave was eventually found, but it was deserted and gave no indication of her whereabouts. Some venture to say that her anger was so concentrated, she became one with the very blade of her weapon. Regardless, after hundreds of years surrounded by constant hate, the sword harvested a power of its own. It is now exceedingly deadly in combat.

BG2 even gives Celestial Fury — the best longblade in the IE games — a generic katana description.

What this comes down to: laziness. Not that lifting lore from AD&D sourcebooks is hard work, but at least it's authentic.

• User Interface. The numerous changes and additions to the UI have been already been covered in Part I of my User Interface Evolution series of posts. Basically, BG2 added to UI functionality but its UI is aesthetically inferior to the original. Here's an excerpt:

Paperdoll comparison: If you think the one on the right looks better than the one on the left then you have appalling aesthetic taste. For the sequel BioWare actually reduced the paperdoll's size and made it blurry. The Helm of Balduran looks pathetic and the large shield looks just awful. You know, there is a reason why the One Pixel Productions mod exists: it's because the sequel's paperdolls and character sprites are shit.



Advantages/Disadvantages to playing Baldur's Gate in the BG2 engine (Tutu, BGT, EE):

advantage / disadvantage / Lilura-approved / Lilura-disapproved


Note that I don't consider all of the advantages to be positives; in fact, almost all of them are negatives and original game balance forever eludes those who play BG in the BG2 engine; so much so, that I would go as far as to say that you have not played the real BG as the devs intended it to be if you have only played Tutu, BGT or EE.

Optional Rest Until Healed, Max HPs on level up & 100% spell-scribing success. Newbie features that many people pretend they're too hardcore to use but secretly do anyway. The first clearly devalues clerical and potion healing post-battle, and the second and third are accessed by simply reducing game difficulty while leveling up/scribing spells. Max HPs means an obviously easier time of it and 100% SSS devalues high intelligence (e.g, Gnome 19) and potion of genius. The difference between successfully scribing your first Web, Sleep and Blindness scroll and not, is big.
Experience cap. It's removed in Tutu. Whee! (Not sure about BGT.) That said, short of farming, you are unlikely to level to a point far beyond the 161,000 XP cap of TotSC with a party of six. Soloists will, though.
Increased spell ranges + Find Familiar. The low level BG2 spells are indeed itemized and available to Sorcs (e.g., Minor Sequencer). In addition, Charname Bards, Mages and Sorcs have access to Familiars that flaunt powerful spell-like abilities, resistances, immunities and skills; for example: Polymorph Self, Invisibility 10' Radius, 50% MR, 100% ER, 1 HP per round regeneration, 2 ApR and up to 24 HPs (a Familiar has almost double the HPs of your first lvl Fighter). Yeah, I don't need to say anything else.
Increased movement speed. Enables your melee guys to close in on spellcasters and archers much more quickly. I don't need to explain why that is advantageous, do I?
+1 race, +3 classes, +1 specialist kit, +21 kits (more for EE). Half-orc Barbs can Rage for 25 strength almost straight out of the blocks (Rage stacks with DUHM). That's a huge THAC0 and dmg bonus compared to the max you can start with in vanilla, which is 18/00 (which you have a 1% chance to roll). Both Barbs and Zerks get powerful blanket immunities that protect against lethal negative status effects. Sorcs don't have to find spell scrolls and get to cast their spells more times per day. So yeah, many of the kits are incredibly powerful. How about mage-killer Inquisitor? Or how about a fucking werewolf that inflicts 1d12 per hit and is immune to normal weapons... in BG?
Extra companions and quests (EE only). Access to more companions only makes things easier. Dorn is an upgraded Minsc (stronger and with better abilities) and Baeloth is more powerful than even Edwin (more spell slots per day, Drow MR).
Player-Leveled PCs (EE only). The ability to recruit a companion mid-game (max lvl-scale is 32,000) and assign their proficiencies and skills at each level is clearly advantageous to putting up with sub-optimal scaling tiers for companions in the vanilla game.
Extra thief skills. While Stealth is broken up into Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, the advantages granted by Detect Illusion and Set Snares far outstrip that disadvantage. Illusions are now of trivial concern.
Poison and disease cured by resting. EE probably addressed this, but I doubt Tutu or BGT did because you can definitely cure both negative status effects by resting in vanilla BG2.
Expanded proficiency table. Breaking up weapon groupings makes things harder, but don't forget the Weapon Style proficiencies that were added: dual-wielding and two-handed grant +ApR and +crits. Clearly, an advantage. Also, don't believe anyone who says dual-wielding is not powerful in BG: I soloed SCS Tutu with Drizzt dual-blades.
Utility XP from thieving/scribing. From memory, UEP has been cut down, or can be modded down, but it's still an advantage to get extra experience points for picking locks, disarming traps and scribing spells.
High Mastery in Chargen (****). Even with the nerfed grandmastery table this is still an advantage. Not sure if EE unnerfs GM.
Ammo stacks doubled. Pretty minor but it cuts down on inventory management and makes ranged combat more attractive (as does the ability to bulk-buy ammo).
Maxed mob spawns. Vanilla spawns are scaled to party size and level but Tutu spawns are maxed, which means you don't get one gibberling on that first map with Elminster, but rather five or six. At first, this may seem difficult. But really, just tank, fire your bow and cast Sleep. And that means increased wealth and XP progression that ends up making the campaign too easy, too early. BGT might be the same but definitely not EE. I noticed that timed spawns have been excluded in Tutu. I wonder if they are in EE..
Magic Resistance does not ward against friendly arcane and divine spells. Another clear advantage that goes against original dev intention of game balance (MR was supposed to be both a blessing and a curse). It means you can buff or heal an MR-resistant party member and they won't resist the spell.
Summons capped to five units. This is probably the single biggest disadvantage, at least, for those who abuse summons. Original-game summons are uncapped, meaning you could summon tons of undead, monsters and animals. Actually, Tutu features uncapped summons. Not sure about BGT and EE.
Nerfed elemental ammo. Acid and fire arrows have been nerfed; the acid from 2d6 to 1d3. Clearly, a disadvantage.
Less powerful Mirror Image. Buffed with this spell, there is still a chance you will be hit. In BG you can't be hit until every single image is dispersed. Then again, it effects enemy mages, too.
Improved pathing routine. Is IPR advantageous or disadvantageous? When you take into account the ease with which one can exploit bad pathing, I'd say the latter. However, for those who don't abuse limited nodes IPR is clearly advantageous. Why? Simply because your combat units are more likely to actually go where you tell them to go, rather than getting stuck on each other or bumping into each other and taking off in the opposite direction.

While some of the above can be modded into Tutu and BGT, it still isn't BG: the BG2 engine just made too many changes to mod them all back to the way they should be.




Best Arcane (Mage) Spells - Baldur's Gate & Baldur's Gate 2

Best Classes - Baldur's Gate & Baldur's Gate 2

Best Weapons - Baldur's Gate & Baldur's Gate 2

BG2: Fighter/Mage/Thief vs. Fighter/Mage/Cleric

BG2: Kensai & Berserker/Mage Dual-Class vs. Fighter/(Illusionist)Mage Multi-Class
BG2: Ranger/Cleric Dual-Classing Guide: Archer/Cleric and Stalker/Cleric

Baldur's Gate Index

EoP


Posted 28th August 2017 by Lilura1
Labels: Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 2 BG > BG2

 

[Jason Liang]

...

VANILLA (non SCS) BG1 is not the challenge that Lilura thinks it is, if her main jab at BG2 is that it's too monty haul well BG1 is ridiculously monty haul as well tyvm. I mean, isn't that the entire point of Durlag's Tower.

 

[Lilura]

Another retrospective has been posted; this one on Silent Storm:

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Will you do other Silent Storm games? At least one of the issues you had with the original (sector inventory) was adressed. Also, different campaign means different balance of pk (introduced at different time).

Silent Storm is, without a doubt, an immortal masterpiece. Hopefully this will enourage you to do a retrospective of another crpg masterpiece from the same auteurs - Pathfinder:Kingmaker.