Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2, Temple of Elemental Evil & Silent Storm Retrospectives

[PrettyDeadman]

Dark Sun should be a gream game to do retrospective too, as well as KOTC. In the end of ss article you talked about a yawning gap between toee,ja2 and ss, but those to fit right in with toee.

 

[Lilura]

Will you do other Silent Storm games? At least one of the issues you had with the original (sector inventory) was adressed. Also, different campaign means different balance of pk (introduced at different time).

Maybe. There is only so much time in a day, and I'm just one person.

Hopefully this will enourage you to do a retrospective of another crpg masterpiece from the same auteurs - Pathfinder:Kingmaker.

Sorry, I only cover Renaissance/API era games. I'm not like other commentators that want to cover everything. I wholly dislike generalist commentary and generalist gaming. Also, I don't want to attract such a fanbase to my blog.

Dark Sun should be a gream game to do retrospective too

There is no way Dark Sun fits in with ToEE. Besides, it's a Golden Age RPG and those don't fall within my coverage range or suit my agenda.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

There is no way Dark Sun fits in with ToEE. Besides, it's a Golden Age RPG and those don't fall within my coverage range or suit my agenda.

Dark Sun fits right in with TOEE (one of the few isometric turn based dnd games), but also with BG, since first Baldur's Gates is just stripped down and popamolified (rtwp) version of Dark Sun. From graphics and UI perspective Dark Sun is of the same era as BG (graphics and ui usability are relatively modern in that game). Dark Sun is not as mechanically complex as TOEE and not as content rich as BG, but it is still a towering achievment in crpg development.
But thanks for response! Hopefully some day you will have time for those games.

 

[Roguey]

Another retrospective has been posted; this one on Silent Storm:

Contrast https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...e-grognards-thread.94135/page-40#post-4291160

As I mentioned, there's very little reason to go around collecting everything in SS because you're always going to be well-stocked at base regardless.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Another retrospective has been posted; this one on Silent Storm:

Contrast https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...e-grognards-thread.94135/page-40#post-4291160

As I mentioned, there's very little reason to go around collecting everything in SS because you're always going to be well-stocked at base regardless.

Why don't you start your own blog like Lilura?
CRPGAdict covers the golden age, Lilura does renaissance (aka silver age), but the brown age (age of decline, age of popamole) is left unattended. Would you be up to the task?

 

[Roguey]

Why don't you start your own blog like Lilura?
CRPGAdict covers the golden age, Lilura does renaissance (aka silver age), but the brown age (age of decline, age of popamole) is left unattended. Would you be up to the task?

I don't believe I can be authoritative enough.

I do intend to play Stygian twice (first with a combat gangster, then with a stealthy/pacifist actor) for the upcoming review attempt. But to actually blog about it, I feel like I'd have to explore every permutation (e.g. magic and crafting builds) which I have little interest in.

 

[Surf Solar]

For some reason I could never get into Silent Storm even though it should be right up my alley in terms of gameplay. It just lacks the quirkiness of JA2 and I strongly prefer 2d spritework to 3d in my isometric games.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Are the clowns who own the IP still making browser-game trash with it?

They released Jagged Alliance: Rage last year.
It was actually mechanically tolerable. Kinda puzzley sneaking game with ok gunplay and levels that have some actual height differences.
Pity that there's also idiotic drugged super soldiers.

Our hopes lie with End State

There's also this unannounced project that's going to do Laos during second Indo-china war.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

collecting everything in SS because you're always going to be well-stocked at base regardless.

Sentinels was better in this regard.

 

[Lilura]

CRPGAdict covers the golden age, Lilura does renaissance (aka silver age), but the brown age (age of decline, age of popamole) is left unattended.

No one wants to cover the "Brown Age" because it isn't prestigious.

But I think the Renaissance far exceeds the so-called Golden Age in terms of prestigiousness.

For example, from that entombed and largely forgotten era, you were only able to cite one game that you thought fitted in with ToEE, JA2 and SS. And the citation is a comparitively weak one.

You can't post 130 write-ups on Dark Sun: Shattered Lands. But you can for many Renaissance-era RPGs.

 

[Lilura]

For some reason I could never get into Silent Storm even though it should be right up my alley in terms of gameplay. It just lacks the quirkiness of JA2

Odd that you cite "quirkiness" as that word, when used without qualification, borders on having a negative connotation in my book. I don't care what the dictionaries say. Call someone or someone's work "quirky", and see how they take it.

What Silent Storm lacks, which Jagged Alliance 2 has, is a seamlessly integrated strategy mode, role-playing reactivity, contiguous non-linear overworld and abundant examples of masterclass coding and designwork that hasn't been matched in 20 years, and may not ever be.

I strongly prefer 2d spritework to 3d in my isometric games.

Me, too. But 3D does facilitate extensions that would be difficult or time-consuming to code/design/draw/animate in an isometric viewport.

 

[Surf Solar]

Odd that you cite "quirkiness" as that word, when used without qualification, borders on having a negative connotation in my book. I don't care what the dictionaries say. Call someone or someone's work "quirky", and see how they take it.

Not a native speaker so that happens from time to time, the word doesn't have a negative connotation to me. Not sure what other word I could have chosen, JA2 is more coherent and feels more 'complete' in its entirety?

What Silent Storm lacks, which Jagged Alliance 2 has, is a seamlessly integrated strategy mode, role-playing reactivity, contiguous non-linear overworld and abundant examples of masterclass coding and designwork that hasn't been matched in 20 years, and may not ever be.

100% agree.

Me, too. But 3D does facilitate extensions that would be difficult or time-consuming to code/design/draw/animate in an isometric viewport.

Yeah it's usually the time consuming part that makes developers prefer realtime rendering over sprite work. Imo going the extra mile really pays off in the end though.

 

[Modron]

What Silent Storm lacks, which Jagged Alliance 2 has, is a seamlessly integrated strategy mode, role-playing reactivity, contiguous non-linear overworld and abundant examples of masterclass coding and designwork that hasn't been matched in 20 years, and may not ever be.

Did you ever play Hammer and Sickle Lilura? If not you should rectify that, it's a criminally overlooked gem even here on the codex. I feel like I have personally asked every codexer at this point if they have played it and the answer is sadly near 99% no.

 

[Surf Solar]

What Silent Storm lacks, which Jagged Alliance 2 has, is a seamlessly integrated strategy mode, role-playing reactivity, contiguous non-linear overworld and abundant examples of masterclass coding and designwork that hasn't been matched in 20 years, and may not ever be.

Did you ever play Hammer and Sickle Lilura? If not you should rectify that, it's a criminally overlooked gem even here on the codex. I feel like I have personally asked every codexer at this point if they have played it and the answer is sadly near 99% no.

Wasnt that the game where you get these weird power armor things near the end?

 

[Lilura]

Yeah it's usually the time consuming part that makes developers prefer realtime rendering over sprite work. Imo going the extra mile really pays off in the end though.

Problem is, JA2 has two levels of verticality and Silent Storm represents seven levels in its campaign (there is probably no limit; I think skyscrapers would be possible).

So while with coding wizardry it would be possible in 2D, it would be extremely difficult I think.

Difficult as well, would be the detail in destructiblity. JA2 is very limited there. In Silent Storm, we can blow a hole in the ceiling and then hoist ourselves up into an attic. Any part of that ceiling, not just the allocated part.

And yes, JA2's spritework is second-to-none in the genre, but imagine trying to code pseudo-ragdoll physics for a sprite that slides down the stairs after being shot... or imagine a 2D animator drawing all those frames?

Just for BG2 to have dual-wielding involved thousands of extra animation frames (that's why they omitted it from BG1). And we know how basic Infinity Engine animations are. JA2's go well beyond that; there is no comparison.

 

[Surf Solar]

7 levels of verticality is seriously impressive, wow. How often is it used in the campaign though, say your squad is besieging a tall building, enemies shoot out of it from several stories/windows? I'll have to replay that one as this indeed sounds awesome.

And yep I know about the amount of work on sprites from firsthand (some fallout modding), nowadays you can use scripts to batch convert frame files, but it is still a buttload of work when you think about this tedious stuff instead of making the next cool animation and slap it on your 3d model pretty effortlessly.

Anyway, looking forward to the next parts, I'll probably re install silent storm as well. Thanks

 

[Lilura]

7 levels is only used once, at the end. And it's not a complex structure. Mostly it's just 3, 4 or 5 levels for complex structures (like factories and manors with lots of placeables). But it's seamless transition through them (no area-loading). And they're destructible.

Wouldn't mind seeing a medieval version of Silent Storm. Hard to believe there were never many modders for the game, but I think lots of people had trouble with the toolset and modding tools.

Imagine if this game had modding community like Warband or Aurora do...

 

[PrettyDeadman]

I've made a character as a dedication to Lilura.
Lawful Good alignment with mad voice personality.
She is a Sylvian Sorcerer with a smiladron pet who represents numerous followers on Lilura blog.
Asimar race is an alusion to Asian race.
The stats are supposed to represent Lilura's personality:
Adequate strength and less than adequate dexterity/finess of Lilura's arguments.
High Charisma is ability to speak with absolute authority on any subject. High constitution is the ability to shrug being called on your bullshit with ease but also an endurance to post 130 write-ups on the same game over the years.
Low int and wisdom are chosen to roleplay wrongfully believing Dark Sun:Shatter Land is not in the same league as as TOEE or BG.

 

[Roguey]

No one wants to cover the "Brown Age" because it isn't prestigious.

This sounds like a challenge but I still have no interest in mastering any kind of game, even ones I like.

Additionally, the RPGs from 2005?-present can be so different from one another that it'd be bizarre to have a blog that focuses on all of them.

 

[Surf Solar]

Roguey strikes me more as the guy/gal that gives insanely random/detailed but interesting sidenotes and anectdotes from when the games were developed. Together with Lilura and maybe someone going insane on technical details and that blog would for sure get legendary. Dunno, atleast I would like to read that combination.


So, please do that?


Also, Lilura please mention the music and sfx especially in a part of your blog please!

May xep624 be with you...

 

[laclongquan]

When you drive verticality to that level it's seriously demanding to calculate bullet vectors. The game could get slower in old rigs.

Aaaaanyway, while last battlefield, the silo-like map is several levels and representative of the game's design, it's not the only map like that.

Bauer''s Headquarter has two level of dungeons (prisons) and 5 level of buildings. People are rarely standing at the prison base and shoot upward (because rifle's power is seriously reduced at that distance) but it's there.

German Factory where you can loot some PKs. It has two level of dungeons, 3 level of buildings, with one level of the highest roof. Again, you rarely stand at the extreme range to shoot, and the factory building design hide that height, but the levels are there.

That Swiss Factory with two level of dungeons and 4 level of buildings, 1 level of roof. The one that you need to open the underground gate to enter next stage of the game which we count as second map instead of same map, which we then need to hit unconscious the boss in unique PK.

That Swiss map is interesting in that if you play hard and fast you can actually destroy the building to crash on the dungeons.

 

[Lilura]

No one wants to cover the "Brown Age" because it isn't prestigious.

This sounds like a challenge but I still have no interest in mastering any kind of game, even ones I like.

I didn't know you liked any RPGs, tbh.

Additionally, the RPGs from 2005?-present can be so different from one another that it'd be bizarre to have a blog that focuses on all of them.

I wouldn't know because I don't keep up to date with new releases. Very occasionally I may skim 'Dex newsposts but I put current gen megathreads and forums on ignore whenever they pop up.

Roguey strikes me more as the guy/gal that gives insanely random/detailed but interesting sidenotes and anectdotes from when the games were developed. Together with Lilura and maybe someone going insane on technical details and that blog would for sure get legendary. Dunno, atleast I would like to read that combination.

I actually recruited a few guest writers at one stage. A few drafts were even written, but nothing was published. What happened was, one of the guest writers pissed me off so I removed not just that person but the others, too. I mean, if one starts going against my narrative then others may as well. Then, I went full purge-mode and deleted 100s of comments from the blog.

Basically, I work best alone.

Also, Lilura please mention the music and sfx especially in a part of your blog please!

Do you mean generally or for a particular game?

May xep624 be with you...

6341 2444 2114 2444 is always with me.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

CRPGAdict covers the golden age, Lilura does renaissance (aka silver age)

Renaissance was the widely used term for the Kickstarter Era RPGs before Lilura confused the discourse by force meme-ing her own terms into existence.

 

[Lilura]

Renaissance was the widely used term for the Kickstarter Era RPGs before Lilura confused the discourse by force meme-ing her own terms into existence.

In point of fact, I appropriated "Renaissance" from BioWare marketing's claim of having "sparked a role-playing Renaissance" with Baldur's Gate. It predates the degenerate Kickstarter era.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

one starts going against my narrative t

kek