How powerful is the "whole" Nameless One?

[Lesifoere]

Those modules were written by a barely-literate moron (no really, it's like the dude didn't quite understand English), so I'm hoping he cited them as examples of shitty mods.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Yeah, I actually thought you were referring specifically to them. I played them when I was about thirteen and had barely heard of PS:T and they still grossly offended me.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

IIRC, there's something that now lets paladins (and possibly fighters?) "mark" targets for tanking, and bring in some kind of aggro mechanic.

IIRC, Mark simply gives some kind of attack penalty (-1 or -2 or something) for trying to attack targets other then the fighter. IE even if a monster gets next to a mage, if a fighter is smacking him around from behind he still finds it a bit harder to focus on the mage then if the fighter wasn't there. I haven't seen any blatantly stupid skills that force enemies to attack your fighter or anything. I'm not an expert or anything though, mayhap there is some set of rules in the DM manual for monster actions that prefer certain targets or w/e.

 

[dolio]

Sooo, wait? They give melee based combatants spell like abilities. Cleve I could get behind, most of the other fighter feats were all melee or ranged based. All were purely physical, but giving them a mark IE, something that is probably RPed like "HEY SHOOTZ DAT TING." and confers a spell like debuff on the target, is fucking retarded. I need to pick up some 4ed books, if only for the sense of betrayal I'd get.

Well, apparently I got rid of the books I had... procured. So I can't give a definitive answer.

However, the purpose of defenders is to take hits, and discourage enemies from attacking the other characters. To do this, when they hit an enemy with one of their powers (I think; perhaps not all powers do this), that enemy becomes marked. And if the marked enemy attacks someone other than the fighter, something happens to it, like it takes damage, or has a decreased chance to hit, or the defender can get an improved hit on it. In 3rd edition, attacks of opportunity were supposed to accomplish this, but I guess they decided those weren't enough (they're still in).

I don't have the descriptions of the stuff here, though, so I can't give you examples of what they sound like. Most of the fighter "powers" sound pretty martial, though. Cleave is one power, where if you hit your target, you also get to hit an adjacent target. There's a tripping attack power. Etc. I don't know which of these mark enemies.

I think a bigger problem with the mechanics (although the above may contribute), at least early on, was that a lot of the classes didn't 'feel' very different to play. For instance, wizards have the same sort of collection of at-will, encounter and daily powers as a fighter, and a cleric, and .... If your wizard takes magic missile, he'll spend much of his time plinking away as a ranged guy with that. There's also a cleric ability, "lance of faith," that's a ranged plinking power. The difference between the two are probably range and possibly bonus damage to undead for the cleric version. You get more differentiating abilities in the limited-use powers, but you have kind of a limited selection of those, compared to spells of previous editions.

If I had to compare it to something, I'd say that it's sort of styled on the wizards from Warcraft 2. Although that's probably an overstatement. But there's no longer any reason to equip a wizard with a crossbow to poke guys when he's not casting spells; he has a magical poking power instead.

I've heard that newer books have reduced some of the feelings of similarity between all the classes, but this stuff kind of put me off.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

TNO is over level 9000 in all classes but he is still small time compared to big players in hells. In later levels power in DnD comes from worship not only from character power.

Who would be more powerful than TNO? Seriously, no character in D&D has max levels in everything, much less any of the lords of the nine or the demon princes, which have only small cult followings by their very nature. After all, archdevils and demon princes are usually considered demigods tops. Even Asmodeus pales compared to those kind of stats. Only a very few true gods are bound to planes in the way that the archdevils/demon princes are, and even then it's usually because their form IS the plane(such as Chanteau being THE land itself that everything takes place on in FR, etc).

 

[Insane Psychic]

IIRC, there's something that now lets paladins (and possibly fighters?) "mark" targets for tanking, and bring in some kind of aggro mechanic.

IIRC, Mark simply gives some kind of attack penalty (-1 or -2 or something) for trying to attack targets other then the fighter. IE even if a monster gets next to a mage, if a fighter is smacking him around from behind he still finds it a bit harder to focus on the mage then if the fighter wasn't there. I haven't seen any blatantly stupid skills that force enemies to attack your fighter or anything. I'm not an expert or anything though, mayhap there is some set of rules in the DM manual for monster actions that prefer certain targets or w/e.

If I recall correctly, fighter marks, give a free attack for the fighter if he's able to attack the target (and the marked creature attacks someone else, of course), and the paladin mark gives a couple of points of damage if the target attacks someone else.

Still: Lame, and that's without starting on the ridiculous magic item system, healing system and the whole "Balance at all costs"

 

[Hobo Elf]

The problem with this discussion is that D&D mechanics are not represented well in fluff and lore and vice versa. That has always been a problem with D&D.

 

[Mackerel]

TNO is over level 9000 in all classes but he is still small time compared to big players in hells. In later levels power in DnD comes from worship not only from character power.

Who would be more powerful than TNO? Seriously, no character in D&D has max levels in everything, much less any of the lords of the nine or the demon princes, which have only small cult followings by their very nature. After all, archdevils and demon princes are usually considered demigods tops. Even Asmodeus pales compared to those kind of stats. Only a very few true gods are bound to planes in the way that the archdevils/demon princes are, and even then it's usually because their form IS the plane(such as Chanteau being THE land itself that everything takes place on in FR, etc).

Asmodeus is a greater power, at least in second edition.

 

[Johannes]

How are gods portrayed in Planescape, and what's their relationship with the demons/devils/angels/etc.? Don't reallyremember hearing anything about the usual D6D deities in PS:T and don't have a hobby of reading D&D fluff, so somebody enlighten me.

 

[Heresiarch]

original incarnation tore down the wall of the faithless

or maybe he killed Ao

The original one is a DM?

 

[MicoSelva]

For those wondering about the original crime and the incarnations, here is a manuscript about what we can learn of the history of the Nameless One from all the info available in the game:

-manuscript-

Hey, thanks for that. Good read.

 

[alkeides]

The design document actually said something about an ending where TNO makes a truce with TTO to stop killing him and leaving each other in peace for all eternity. This wasn't implemented in the final game AFAIK but I think it makes sense since TNO doesn't know the full story until he meets the original incarnation although some might find that a bit of an anticlimax.

 

[Delirius]

TNO vs Naruto

who would win

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The design document actually said something about an ending where TNO makes a truce with TTO to stop killing him and leaving each other in peace for all eternity. This wasn't implemented in the final game AFAIK but I think it makes sense since TNO doesn't know the full story until he meets the original incarnation although some might find that a bit of an anticlimax.

That would actually be a pretty cool ending. TNO's main mission was to find out who he was. After he unlocked his past memories from Pharod's sphere and talking with TTO he doesn't really have much of a reason to merge with TTO assuming he doesn't care about penance for the first incarnation's crime. I suppose that could be considered an 'evil' leaning ending, since TNO would be avoiding the punishment, though whether it is really immoral at all to do so is an interesting question.

 

[Sceptic]

That would actually be a pretty cool ending. TNO's main mission was to find out who he was.

At first, yes. But after he finds out his mind is literally falling apart, that becomes the thing to fix. Making this deal with TTO means he's condemned himself to lose his mind. On a more thematic level, I disliked that ending when I read about it, and was glad it was left out, because it completely breaks the mood of the game, and especially of the Fortress. The entire end game sequence is bittersweet, and then having TNO resurrect everyone and leaves with friends and harem in tow? it's... too happy. If there's one CRPG where the happy ending really doesn't fit, it's PST.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

He finds out his mind is literally falling apart

It's... too happy

If anything I think that would be a more tragic end, him being permanently cursed because he was too cowardly to face his past. Though really, we are never given a good picture of exactly what is happening to TNO because of his constant reincarnations.

 

[Sceptic]

Yeah, I thought I might be contradicting myself. I was assuming the "mind falling apart" aspect would not have been mentioned and we'd have seen TNO walking out with the rest of the party in tow. But having them all stay dead and TNO walking out alone knowing he has condemned himself to eventual mindlessness? Yeah, that would've definitely been fitting as the grim, cowardly ending.

(flip-flop!)

 

[Johannes]

You don't need to take anyone with you to the Fortress though, that way you don't need to worry about letting them die.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Yeah, I thought I might be contradicting myself. I was assuming the "mind falling apart" aspect would not have been mentioned and we'd have seen TNO walking out with the rest of the party in tow. But having them all stay dead and TNO walking out alone knowing he has condemned himself to eventual mindlessness? Yeah, that would've definitely been fitting as the grim, cowardly ending.

(flip-flop!)

Would have been a nice alternative attending: a 'noble sacrifice' ending, a 'selfish' ending, and a 'cowardly' ending. What's more, it would have fit the Rule of Three brilliantly.

 

[Azrael the cat]

TNO is over level 9000 in all classes but he is still small time compared to big players in hells. In later levels power in DnD comes from worship not only from character power.

Who would be more powerful than TNO? Seriously, no character in D&D has max levels in everything, much less any of the lords of the nine or the demon princes, which have only small cult followings by their very nature. After all, archdevils and demon princes are usually considered demigods tops. Even Asmodeus pales compared to those kind of stats. Only a very few true gods are bound to planes in the way that the archdevils/demon princes are, and even then it's usually because their form IS the plane(such as Chanteau being THE land itself that everything takes place on in FR, etc).

Asmodeus is a greater power, at least in second edition.

Gods. He pissed off the Gods. They probably would have directly intervened and dragged him to the blood war already, if not for the fact that he's somewhat sheltered in Sigil (they can't get in), and is described as having been very very cunning when trying to hide amongst the outer planes (and the incarnations that tried that were pretty knowledgeable as to what was going on).

 

[Johannes]

And what are these Gods in the Planescape setting?

 

[Erebus]

The gods are pretty absent in Torment, really. I don't remember a single occasion when a specific god is mentioned and the one priestess that can join us worships a pure concept. Only at the end are they mentioned, and even then, they're basically the incarnation of cosmic justice coming to punish TNO for his crimes.

 

[Malakal]

And what are these Gods in the Planescape setting?

Lady probably even if she doesnt like worship. Then maybe Vecna. Just kidding. There are a lot of them but they are not present in Sigil or hells where the gameplay takes place.

 

[Malakal]

TNO is over level 9000 in all classes but he is still small time compared to big players in hells. In later levels power in DnD comes from worship not only from character power.

Who would be more powerful than TNO? Seriously, no character in D&D has max levels in everything, much less any of the lords of the nine or the demon princes, which have only small cult followings by their very nature. After all, archdevils and demon princes are usually considered demigods tops. Even Asmodeus pales compared to those kind of stats. Only a very few true gods are bound to planes in the way that the archdevils/demon princes are, and even then it's usually because their form IS the plane(such as Chanteau being THE land itself that everything takes place on in FR, etc).

Asmodeus:

Fighter 25, Wizard 20
THACO 1
HP 199
Dmg 2d8+13 (3 attacks)
MR 90%
Immune to: all spells under 4th level, poison, paralysis, petrification, death magic, illusions and phantasms, and mind control. Can only be hit by +4 weapons or higher.
Special Attacks: Awe (to any within 120', gate one greater or two lesser devils each round (like a Pit Fiend...).
Spell-Like Abilities: symbol of pain, symbol of persuasion, symbol of hopelessness, unholy word.
Rod of Asmodeus: a rod of absorption (up to 25 spell levels), cast acidic blast, cone of cold, and lightning bolt at will once per day as a 25th level Wizard.

TNO cant outcast him (his absorption and resistance are too great), Asmodeus can easily flood the battlefield with greater demons summoned at will and has entire 9 Hells under him.

Besides TNO wouldnt be >9000 he would be simply high level. Judging by Asmodeus being only level 25 TNO cant be really more than in the 30 range.

 

[MicoSelva]

Please, let's not make this a 'who is stronger, Goku or Vegeta' thread.
Listing D&D stats is one step too far, I think.