How powerful is the "whole" Nameless One?

[Xor]

It's possible he did revive them but enough time has passed that they're dead and the items have been collected by one random shopkeeper.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Certainly not canon. I don't think Bioware even had the license to use characters from the Planescape setting, and if they did then the characters were probably still be owned by Black Isle at the time BG2 came out. To say nothing of the obvious silliness of the entire idea. Its just a harmless little bonus store.

 

[Hieromancer]

Certainly not canon. I don't think Bioware even had the license to use characters from the Planescape setting, and if they did then the characters were probably still be owned by Black Isle at the time BG2 came out. To say nothing of the obvious silliness of the entire idea. Its just a harmless little bonus store.

The stupidest example being Dak'kon's Zerth Blade, which, we learn many times in Planescape: Torment, would not exist without him. A semi-useful katana in BG2. Thanks Bioware.

 

[Lesifoere]

Everything about 4E is retarded.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Everything about 4E is retarded.

From what little I've read the mechanics don't sound bad, I like the idea of balancing the classes though removing some of the cooler mage spells is annoying. The thing thats absolutely unforgivable is the lore rape. Fucking Bethesda could have handled it better.

 

[Lesifoere]

It's not just the lore rape, though. Game mechanics have been MMOrified.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Game mechanics have been MMOrified.

How so? I get that it has been simplified, but D&D 3.5e got to be so complex in some situations that it could really have used a bit of it. I don't see how it has been 'MMOified' though. MMOs are seriously shitty affairs, nothing I have seen in D&D comes close to the retardedness they have.

 

[roll-a-die]

VS

ROUND 1 FIGHT

 

[Lesifoere]

IIRC, there's something that now lets paladins (and possibly fighters?) "mark" targets for tanking, and bring in some kind of aggro mechanic.

 

[dolio]

I think most "defenders" (possibly others, too) mark enemies. What varies is what the effects of that mark is.

 

[LusciousPear]

I really like "Planescape: 2orment".

 

[roll-a-die]

I think most "defenders" (possibly others, too) mark enemies. What varies is what the effects of that mark is.

Sooo, wait? They give melee based combatants spell like abilities. Cleve I could get behind, most of the other fighter feats were all melee or ranged based. All were purely physical, but giving them a mark IE, something that is probably RPed like "HEY SHOOTZ DAT TING." and confers a spell like debuff on the target, is fucking retarded. I need to pick up some 4ed books, if only for the sense of betrayal I'd get.

 

[Azrael the cat]

TNO is God-like to any normal being encountered in a DnD-session. That means that an encounter with TNO and an encounter with a God is going to go the same way - wtfpwn before you knew what happened. But that doesn't mean that TNO is on the same league as the gods or greater demons. The 'all-caps-speak' and list of things he's done: in particular Ignus's description of his mage-power and his letting the demons/devils into Sigil probably puts him a fair way ahead of Lothar - the latter is some pretty epic stuff considering that no-one has managed it, and everyone is constantly trying.

But DnD mythology has a very very high heirarchy above the level of ordinary adventuring. TNO is at the top of the chain of things you'd find in the prime material plane and other common adventuring planes. But there's plenty of things out there that are more powerful, once you start including greater demons and gods. And by being so powerful, TNO would attract more attention - he's much more likely to have Demogorgon or an equivalent personally minding him, making escape a little tricky without outside help,

But you have to keep in mind that whatever TNO's original sin was, it was something so utterly abhorrent to the gods that every one of them damned him forever. Most every event in his past we actually hear about in game is mere peanuts compared to what he did before and what he could do again after merging with TTO. IIRC there was something mentioned about the planes themselves dieing because of what TNO did, and it's not even clarified if this is the original sin, merely a side effect of it, or completely unrelated. Just mildly fucking with any number of gods may make him enemies but just as many friends elsewhere, the only reason I can see for him to literally be beyond redemption in everyone's eyes is for the gods to have been threatened by him somehow.

Kind of what I meant by his power attracting attention. An average footsoldier might fake his death and go missing without anyone caring that much (though, as I understand, lore-wise they track him down mercilessly on principle to make an example to others). But TNO is just too big and too well known for that to happen. He'd be assigned to be under the personal supervision of one of the leading demons/devils. And if he escaped, the gods themselves (or at least some of them) may well track him down and drag him back there. As I said, a sequel could do it without raping the lore (not that that will possibly happen as things are now), but it would need to be some combination of FFG's interfering (though that would have to be a minor part - she's no ponce, and she's clever, but she just isn't that powerful), some serious trickery and would need to be the central thread of a full campaign - perhaps PS: Redemption. Much of the campaign would need to have you on the run from the various parties who want to drag you back to the brood war, or just plain erase you. Even then, a happy 'I escaped and get to live a normal life' is neither plausible, nor in keeping with the game's 'feel'. Anything TNO could do to earn respite (with respite possibly meaning actual annihiliation - i.e. peace) would need to be as big a sacrifice as what he makes at the end of PS:T, otherwise it would just cheapen the original ending.

 

[Radisshu]

Why do you think TNO's original sin was THAT awful? To him, sure, it was, but just enough to get him sent to any of the Hells upon death, I think. That's why he wanted to become immortal, to escape becoming a petitioner at a really shitty plane, and becoming an immortal was the real sin. The life of his first incarnation probably weighs lightly compared to the load of all his later incarnations' karmic weight, though.

 

[Jora]

Why do you think TNO's original sin was THAT awful? To him, sure, it was, but just enough to get him sent to any of the Hells upon death, I think.

I think it's made clear in the game that he did something really horrible.

 

[Radisshu]

Why do you think TNO's original sin was THAT awful? To him, sure, it was, but just enough to get him sent to any of the Hells upon death, I think.

I think it's made clear in the game that he did something really horrible.

I always interpreted that as really horrible to any mortal, but not necessarily to a bunch of deities. But it's been a while since I played it.

 

[Lumpy]

It's pointless to discuss what would 'normally' happen in the Planescape setting, because TNO clearly follows different rules. He doesn't die, and he doesn't become a petitioner - he gets pulled directly into the hells, old body and all. And thematically, the story only makes sense if he has to stay in the Blood War forever, and not because of something silly like demons keeping him there. The game seems to imply that living beings can walk in and out of the hells at will, but the damned are bound to stay there, forever.
Which makes sense, really - wouldn't be much of an afterlife if dying simply meant one free teleport to another plane, everything being just as before otherwise.

 

[ghostdog]

For those wondering about the original crime and the incarnations, here is a manuscript about what we can learn of the history of the Nameless One from all the info available in the game :

What of the original incarnation? There was an advisor, whose lying advice wrought betrayal. Hints of a contract signed. A crime was committed, one so awful the acts of all future incarnations are as nothing compared to it. The crime itself is unknown, save the implication that the planes are still slowly dying because of it.

He sought help of the night hag Ravel Puzzlewell, to grant him immortality, so he could escape his punishment and perhaps atone for his crime. And for love of him, Ravel granted his request, stripping his mortality from him. But a dreadful price was paid, since although the death of the body was no longer permanent, it did injure the mind, and memories were forgotten. Thus were born many incarnations, each starting with only fragments of memory of past existences.

There is also a sliver of another memory of Ravel, which seems to tie in with the myth of the three wishes. In the myth a man wishes for the awful knowledge of who he is. Perhaps this refers to a time when the original incarnation realized the full extent of his crime, and what the punishment must be?

There are only fragments from the many incarnations which followed. General of armies, a mage trained by a puissant sorcerer, a bloody-handed criminal chased by the mercykillers, a thief reduced to skulking beneath the streets of Sigil. Wandering many planes, acts of cruelty and kindness, chaos and law. One constant was the symbol of torment on his body, which drew other tormented souls to him. And many to their doom as well, no doubt.

At some point an incarnation which knew of the Fortress of Regrets, more accurately the Fortress of His Regrets, had a conversation with Trias the deva in which he described what he knew of the fortress.

One incarnation lead a revolt in what was then the prime ward, opening all the gates in the ward to the lower planes using an artifact known as the Shadow-Sorcelled Key. The Lady of Pain finally crushed the revolt. Could his scarring be explained by having fallen under the Lady's shadow? Could even an immortal survive that?

Several centuries ago Ravel attempted to open all the portals in Sigil. Whether it was to prove she could solve any puzzle, or as she later claimed to free the Lady from her cage, the Lady mazed her, removing a source of knowledge from access by later incarnations.

More than 200 years ago an incarnation was a member of the Sensates. Apparently this was a happy time for him, but he disappeared, with only rumors of his murder following in his wake.

At some point after this was the time of the 'practical' incarnation, who, but for one, came closest to defeating his enemy. A cold, ruthless incarnation. He kept detailed notes, and had tattooed instructions on his back to future incarnations. He tricked Pharod into a quest for an object he could not be bothered to find himself, and imprisoned the mercykiller Vhailor in a cell only he could release him from merely on the chance that Vhailor's abilities might one day be of use.

He commissioned a dream machine from Xeno Xander, to force the dreams which he could not have. He also commissioned from the Godsmen a portal to reach Ravel in her maze. In the end, he did not have time to make use of either item.

He attempted to thwart his unknown enemy with false bodies, by hiding on outer planes, even building a tomb which was both a trap for his enemy, and a repository of knowledge for future incarnations.

Nothing he could devise could throw off his enemy, so he decided to seek his enemy in his lair. To that end he gathered companions to himself.

He sought knowledge from the pillar of skulls in Avernus, and freed one skull from the pillar who he named Morte. Then he nearly killed the skull when it could not answer his questions. Unfortunately Morte still cannot wholly escape his past, and embroiders the truth. Thus he is not a very reliable source.

He tracked down a githzerai named Dak'kon in Limbo, because of the Karach blade he wields. He saved his life and gained his sworn service by cynically offering the words of Zerthimon. Words which meant nothing to this incarnation.

He enlisted a blind archer, Xachariah, one who could still see by other means, and whose arrows always found his enemies' hearts.

He professed a false love for Deionarra, so he could bind her and make use of her abilities.

Finally, a little more than fifty years ago, he and his companions traveled to the Fortress of Regrets, to scout his enemy, his Mortality. The first part of his plan went well. Deionarra was allowed to die, her love for him anchoring her to the fortress in death, and her powers gaining her insight into the fortress that no other could have provided.

Otherwise it was a disaster. He and his companions were separated. Dak'kon and Morte managed to escape, although wounded in faith and courage. Xachariah and the 'practical' incarnation died, although their bodies returned to Sigil. Possibly his enemy, after defeating him, transported him back to Sigil before killing him for fear that his dying in the fortress would be the end of himself as well?

What was likely the next incarnation was insane, quite likely because of his experiences in the Fortress of Regret. In his insanity he viewed his other incarnations as his enemies, as body-thieves. Although only extant for a few years, he was not unclever.

He destroyed his previous incarnation's laboriously constructed journals, a great loss, hardly balanced by the maunderings he inscribed in his previous incarnation's trapped tomb, and his own rambling journal. He also tried to burn the legacy left by this previous incarnation with Iannis the Advocate, but failed.

He left many traps for his other incarnations, the most devious of which was a sensory stone in the Festhall with two experiences, one overlaying another, the second a snare which only another incarnation could trigger.

He kept a journal, written in the tongue of Uyo, a tongue he guaranteed no one would be able to speak by murdering his teacher, Fin Andlye. This was not enough protection, so he required opening a puzzle box to access its contents, and trapped it besides.

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

In fact, this incarnation viewed anyone who seemed to recognize him as a threat, and threats were all too easily eliminated. Even being mazed by the Lady did not stop his rampage, since he managed to escape his prison. His murderous fury was finally quenched when he met unexpected resistance from one of his victims, and plummeted to his death. This was roughly fifty years ago.

Of the next few incarnations little is known, although one was a powerful mage, and tutored an apprentice named Ignus who loved fire.

Finally there is the last incarnation, who awoke in the Dustmen's Mortuary, the one whose memory is not veiled at death. Curiously, the person who found this incarnation's body and took it to the Mortuary was drawn to the remains. How drawn? Was it Fell? His enemy? Possibly even the mark of torment, drawing another tormented soul even in death?

This last incarnation set out on a quest to backtrack figures from his past, a path which eventually led to his enemy, his Mortality. This was mirrored by his enemy's desire that he follows the path, so that remaining clues to his enemy's location could be eliminated.

He fought Ravel, Trias and his Mortality. He also faced three of his former incarnations. Interesting examples of the Rule of Three.

He and his companions defeated his Mortality, and undid the separation which made him immortal so long ago. His long delayed punishment caught up with him, and he was sentenced to serve in the Blood Wars.

 

[Erebus]

The life of his first incarnation probably weighs lightly compared to the load of all his later incarnations' karmic weight, though.

When we get to meet the first incarnation, he says that the evil he's committed completely dwarfs the evil committed by the paranoid and practical incarnations (which is certainly saying something).

The description given by the original incarnation gave me the feeling that he had been damned because of countless great crimes, not just a single titanic one.

 

[Johannes]

Anything TNO could do to earn respite (with respite possibly meaning actual annihiliation - i.e. peace) would need to be as big a sacrifice as what he makes at the end of PS:T, otherwise it would just cheapen the original ending.

Though, if he wanted just to annihilate himself he can do that in the original game as well with the blade given by the siege tower fella. Though of course he may want to do that more only after he faces the reality of the blood war again.

How is it determined which side he fights for btw?

 

[Volrath]

inb4qwinn

Qwinn

 

[grotsnik]

Back when I was pissing about with toolsets, I had this really adolescent, grandiose idea of a mod in which you played a Harmonium judge and investigator who gets tasked by a deranged, increasingly-Ravel-like Fall-From-Grace to head into the Blood War and discover if TNO is still alive.

And then it becomes a parallel detective story in which you go around piecing together the lives of the different incarnations and deciding for yourself what kind of a man this was.

I reckoned (and still do) that this sort of thing was the best way of doing a follow-up since having you play the Nameless One in a direct sequel and forcing him through another whole character arc was really cheap and would degrade the original. Fortunately before I got too far, I came to the enlightened understanding that some games should be beyond shitty NWN fanmodding - and, in general, left alone.

 

[Orgasm]

WHO CARES

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I came to the enlightened understanding that some games should be beyond shitty NWN fanmodding - and, in general, left alone.

In the Footsteps of Dante/Nature of a Man, you say?

 

[grotsnik]

I came to the enlightened understanding that some games should be beyond shitty NWN fanmodding - and, in general, left alone.

In the Footsteps of Dante/Nature of a Man, you say?

Huh. Actually never heard of those. You quoting them as examples of worthy mods or shitty mods?

Because I seem to recall some of Beerfish's stuff being a bit...lacking, writing/spellinggrammarEnglish-wise.