Historical Revisionism in Video Game and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[AndyS]

But "Ocarina of Time", despite being hailed as some childhood epic, a watershed of games design, was no flawless transition, and is inferior in a lot of ways to "A Link to the Past". I would argue that Zelda in fact, like Sonic, was a pretty ackward transition, working better in 2D, although fixable, and subsequently done better. I found OoT annoying in many ways, for reasons that this random YouTuber explains quite well in this video - including the Z-axis targeting being immersion breaking compared to the the open isometric combat of the 2D Zelda games:

I tried to replay OoT a few years ago and just got too bored to finish it. It has an open world to explore with not a lot going on in it, so you feel like you're doing tons of walking just to get to the next objective. I've found that this is common in series that went through the 2d/3d transition - no matter how well-done the game is, the pacing gets badly thrown off compared to the 2D games and there isn't enough done to compensate for the changes made.

 

[Tehdagah]

Nintendo causing a lot of butthurt ITT

 

[Falksi]

Oh BTW, while we are talking about Nintendo sacred cows, let me just say something about "Ocarina of Time", and it's worshippers.

OoT generates some weird revisionism in general, which is funny. Nintendildos often point out that OoT invented lock-on systems (what they call z-targetting to make it sound fancier), but when you tell them the mechanic existed in previous games, they get angry and tell you "well, they don't count because they weren't as POLISHED as OoT", absolute goalpost moving with a good dose of subjectivity. Also, they love to name devs citing OoT as their biggest inspiration, like the GTA3 devs. When you ask them how in the hell does GTA 3 play like OoT at all, they start going "uuuuhhh... do you KNOW more about VIDEO GAMES than actual DEVELOPERS??????? checkmate". So you point out the terrible opinions devs often have about video games, coming from their mouths, their twitters, and Nintendildos get pissy again. It's all a fucking cult and if you don't recognize OoT as the holy trinity, you're being an heretic in their eyes.

Ha, glad it's not me that has just experienced that Nintendrone train of thought. They do the same thing with the D-Pad, it's shoulder buttons and the analogue stick. It's usually...

Nintendrone: "Nintendo are amazing because they invented the D-Pad/shoulder buttons/analogue stick!"

Me: No they didn't, the D-Pad was on the Intellivision pad first, and both shoulder buttons and analogue stick on the SEGA XE-1AP before the SNES got released never mind the N64, with the Vectrex had an analogue stick preceding those too.

Nintendrone: Uh...yeah....but Nintendo's versions polished them and made them popular!

Me: Well wait a sec, didn't other companies then polish those things even further and popularize them even more? Like literally no-one buys a controller shaped like the N64's for their PC, almost everyone buys one shaped like the X-Box controller. Why pick out a random point in the evolution of that product to champion?

It's just that fucking weird baby-minded cult mentality.

And Ocarina of Time is my most disapointing game ever. Got it for X-mas '98 and spent the entire day bored out of my head playing it. Dull AF.

In fact for me either of the first Star Control games simply have to be in the top 10. That's a personal preference, but even objectively speaking I don't think there is a better example of competitive gaming balance. Even though I love the Street Fighter 2 series, I really don't get how that can feature at number 27 and what is essentially Street Fighter in space....but with an additional layer of strategy, tactics and roleplaying...can be ignored in the whole 100.

Putting lots of hours personally into a game doesn't make it top 10 for everyone. Top 100 should be something more universal than our own niche autism sadly. I've put infinite hours into Japanese mecha tactics games and I wouldn't list them as top 100. I enjoy them for specific reasons and most people won't.

If those Japanese mecha tactics games are top quality then they should feature. These lists should be defined by quality and by people who have played a ton of games to comparatively rank them fairly, and who are also self aware of their own bias and preferences. that's half the problem with these lists, the so called "experts" haven't played half the games on them, never mind those which don't make the cut.

Star Control's first two games are top tier and I defy anyone who gets into them to not get addicted to them, or come aware from them loving the experience. When you've 8-12 mates over regularly, all who own different systems like different genres and are into different things, and all of them are fighting for the next turn to get on Star Control then you know you've something special which should 100% be included.

And the only reason people don't get into these games is because they are low-level mongs, and low level mong gaming opinions should be outright ignored, else you end up with shit like the list Lou posted from IGN.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Colin McRae Rally which came out in 98 for the PS1

That game was every where. It was popular on demo discs and likely sold a few machines. Was Micromachines not big in the US? It was one of the most popular mega drive games back then.

I couldn't believe it, either. I mean, it even got a Platinum release. He talks about Ridge Racer, NFS, even Toge Max(which I've only heard about), Saturn and N64 exclusives, but for some reason no Colin McRae Rally. EDIT: Toca Touring Car and its sequel probably deserved a mention too, they were very popular in Europe and used similar kinds of cars, but again, European game based on an European race.

 

[Lucumo]

Mainstreamers, including mainstream journalists, are entirely ignorant of video game history. All they have is the barest surface level knowledge but they're too proud to admit it.

I will openly admit that I never owned a console in my life and my knowledge of console games is rudimentary at best, but I have a deep knowledge of PC gaming and its various genres, the many different PCs that existed in the 80s and 90s, and even some obscure shit like Mac-exclusive indie RPGs I wouldn't expect anyone to know about. But even when it comes to consoles I have a rough idea about what genres were popular when.

These surface-level "experts" know absolutely nothing about genres that aren't popular right now. And that list is pretty big: point & click adventures, shmups, fighting games, racing games, classic CRPGs, etc. Even for 2D platformers they usually just pick the Marios. I haven't seen a single PC platformer on such a list before, even though the Commander Keen games are top tier. Jazz Jackrabbit is forgotten too, even though Sonic with guns is such a cool concept.

I really don't think it's pride. It's just ignorance and degeneracy...

Funnily enough, I know a lot about PC and console games in Europe, the US and Japan but my knowledge regarding smaller-/middle-sized games from like 2015 and onwards is lacking. Ah, and I almost forgot mobile gaming. Absolutely no clue about that one.

I will never understand why people even give them the attention. It should be easy to notice that they know nothing, yet people gobble up whatever they shit out.

Since football/soccer games are almost universally enjoyed here, nearly every PC gamer I knew in the 90s and beyond could at least play PES or FIFA with a controller.

It really is an American problem, though. Even in serious retrospectives on Youtube, crucial games are always omitted due to American idiosyncrasies. I was just watching a Digital Foundry's retrospective on Gran Turismo, which was the game that really won people over, perhaps more than Tomb Raider(which you could play on PC), and the takes an extended detour to talk about racing simulation titles of that era. He mentions Papyrus' NASCAR and Indianapolis 500 games, which were of course important, but there's no word about the hugely significant Grand Prix games by Geoff Crammond or even Colin McRae Rally which came out in 98 for the PS1. The reason being that both F1 and rally racing aren't really popular in the US. No mention of Stunts, either. People come away thinking that, for example, Gran Turismo invented the replay mode which you see in 1990's Stunts and had reached perfection in 1995's Grand Prix 2. Something like this goes on for every genre.

Or they could have just used a controller for the PC. No need for a console.

I mean...did you really expect any better?

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Or they could have just used a controller for the PC. No need for a console.

I mean...did you really expect any better?

How do I know you grew up without any friends?

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

If those Japanese mecha tactics games are top quality then they should feature. These lists should be defined by quality and by people who have played a ton of games to comparatively rank them fairly, and who are also self aware of their own bias and preferences. that's half the problem with these lists, the so called "experts" haven't played half the games on them, never mind those which don't make the cut.

I wouldn't call Asteroids with some great characters attached to be a contender for greatest game ever. You have very specific tastes and I think that influences what you're into. For greatest game ever you have to set aside personal taste. I know I enjoy those tactics games because I'm familiar with the characters and I want to see how they interact or I want to upgrade mecha and see how they evolve. I basically want Pokemon mecha. But that's a niche specific for me. Greatest games ever should be pretty universal in their greatness. Mario 64 is a great game and it's a universally great game. Everything about it is appealing to almost everyone and even people who don't like 3D platformers can see the quality and depth there. I can't say the same for Star control 2 despite playing it. It's a solid game but it's not best game ever material despite your fond memories.

 

[Lucumo]

Or they could have just used a controller for the PC. No need for a console.

I mean...did you really expect any better?

How do I know you grew up without any friends?

Apparently you don't. If you read what I replied to you earlier in the thread, you would know better So my point still stands that they didn't need a console to play a football game with a controller (alone or together).

 

[Tehdagah]

Emulation is really easy on the Steam deck but it's not powerful enough to run Switch games. I tried TTOK and it barely hit 20 FPS. Steam deck is really good for a tinkerer and someone who likes messing with PCs. But as a casual product I would never buy one for someone else. Too many games on Steam don't work on the deck and there's no native way to know that until you buy or search protondb. You have to install a third party tool to be told what works and doesn't. It still has a long way to go for normalfags functionality.

A lot of Switch games don't even work properly on emulator. Some of them don't even boot. And then there's the fact online multiplayer on emulators is a hassle.

I suppose a Switch is still the best way to play Switch games.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Or they could have just used a controller for the PC. No need for a console.

I mean...did you really expect any better?

How do I know you grew up without any friends?

Apparently you don't. If you read what I replied to you earlier in the thread, you would know better So my point still stands that they didn't need a console to play a football game with a controller (alone or together).

The last football game I owned was Fifa 99 for the PS1, which had been a Christmas gift, but I was still pretty decent at PES throughout the PS2 era just from all the times I had to sit down on a sofa with a controller in my hands. Yeah, you could play it on PC, too. But most people weren't interested in a PC for games, they just wanted a console to play PES and FIFA easily. That's a pretty good use case for a console. I wouldn't "expect more" from them, because they weren't gamers.

 

[Falksi]

If those Japanese mecha tactics games are top quality then they should feature. These lists should be defined by quality and by people who have played a ton of games to comparatively rank them fairly, and who are also self aware of their own bias and preferences. that's half the problem with these lists, the so called "experts" haven't played half the games on them, never mind those which don't make the cut.

I wouldn't call Asteroids with some great characters attached to be a contender for greatest game ever. You have very specific tastes and I think that influences what you're into. For greatest game ever you have to set aside personal taste. I know I enjoy those tactics games because I'm familiar with the characters and I want to see how they interact or I want to upgrade mecha and see how they evolve. I basically want Pokemon mecha. But that's a niche specific for me. Greatest games ever should be pretty universal in their greatness. Mario 64 is a great game and it's a universally great game. Everything about it is appealing to almost everyone and even people who don't like 3D platformers can see the quality and depth there. I can't say the same for Star control 2 despite playing it. It's a solid game but it's not best game ever material despite your fond memories.

When did asteroids have a tactical map, exploration or RPG elements?

Mario 64 is fucking garbage, a camera battle all based around playability with bad playability. It shouldn't be anywhere near a top 100 list.

The people who can't appreciate Star Control 2 are low level gamers who shouldn't define quality. That's like saying Billy Joe Armstrongs opinion on best guitarists should be valued over Eddie Van Halens (RIP). The main reason they don't like them are 1) because they haven't played them; 2) because they can't grasp them. But that doesn't define the quality of the game itself.

All you're doing is encouraging the low-end dregs of gaming to define what's accepted, and then you wonder why revisionist history is present with so many low enders populating the hobby. The same people who will tell you Mario 64 is one of the best games ever are those who'll tell you Nintendo invented the analogue stick. You're championing the people who create the problem which you are complaining about.

 

[Lucumo]

Or they could have just used a controller for the PC. No need for a console.

I mean...did you really expect any better?

How do I know you grew up without any friends?

Apparently you don't. If you read what I replied to you earlier in the thread, you would know better So my point still stands that they didn't need a console to play a football game with a controller (alone or together).

The last football game I owned was Fifa 99 for the PS1, which had been a Christmas gift, but I was still pretty decent at PES throughout the PS2 era just from all the times I had to sit down on a sofa with a controller in my hands. Yeah, you could play it on PC, too. But most people weren't interested in a PC for games, they just wanted a console to play PES and FIFA easily. That's a pretty good use case for a console. I wouldn't "expect more" from them, because they weren't gamers.

Huh? You wrote, specifically about PC gamers, this:

I had a Mega Drive before a PC, because they were very expensive, but by the mid 90s most middle class kids had both a PC and a console. Since football/soccer games are almost universally enjoyed here, nearly every PC gamer I knew in the 90s and beyond could at least play PES or FIFA with a controller.

...to which I replied the above. Not sure why you bring non-/casual-gamers into this now.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

One of these days I'll finally play Mario 64.

 

[Falksi]

One of these days I'll finally play Mario 64.

My condolences mate.

 

[Raghar]

There's not ONE SHMUP or Beat 'Em Up on there for example

It's a crime.

He missed Halo 2 as SHUMP, and Hollow knight and Witcher 3 as the other genre.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

learn to read, that paragraph talks about sequels and prequels.

You might wanna read the passage around the last three comma marks, for context.

so? was X-COM more popular than Tekken? PC was more of a niche back then because PCs were expensive, a PC in the 90s cost you $3-$4k without adjusting for inflation, so probably equivalent of $6k+ today, the PS1 launched at $299

I have never heard of the two racing games between Daytona USA and Tekken. Looking them up, Ace Driver looks like another arcade racer with little overall impact and Alpine Racer's impact is being the first 3D skiing game. A fair first, but that's something that's far more niche than X-COM and System Shock. Especially in the retrospect that these articles are. Someone making a tactics game like X-COM or likes the genre will have absolutely played X-COM, same with immersive sims and System Shock.

Oh BTW, while we are talking about Nintendo sacred cows, let me just say something about "Ocarina of Time", and it's worshippers.

The famous transition between 2D fouth-generation consoles (beautiful late sprites), and 3D fifth generation consoles (ugly ass early polygons), had the console companies forcing all their mascots into ugly 3D games. The worst of course was Sonic. He clearly only works as a 2D gameplay concept, but was forced into 3D games to disasterous results. The best was probably Metroid Prime. The Saturn was a 2D powerhouse, so Sonic could have had a long career as a late-2D game like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, but that is another story.

I'll say one thing in defense or Ocarina and one thing against it. Against, Ocarina really doesn't have an excuse if you think it's ugly, it's not that early in 3D, considering that we had such games for a good decade before it was released, some pre-rendered, some not. Even in Japan, who are usually behind such things, 3D games were being made so that's no excuse for Zelda. In defense, well, there aren't really any games that do what 3D Zeldas did as well or better. At least, none that many have heard of, certainly none I know of. A 3D open-ended game like that, with tons to explore is a concept I'm surprised hasn't been improved upon. Just like I'm surprised nobody ever did a game in the style of Metroid Prime. To me, at least, those are the two games that Nintendo had that were really good and unique.

Mainstreamers, including mainstream journalists, are entirely ignorant of video game history. All they have is the barest surface level knowledge but they're too proud to admit it.

For people who claim to think of games as art, which journalists always seem to do, they sure seem to take art to mean things that could easily be done in other mediums or very simple gameplay.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Or they could have just used a controller for the PC. No need for a console.

I mean...did you really expect any better?

How do I know you grew up without any friends?

Apparently you don't. If you read what I replied to you earlier in the thread, you would know better So my point still stands that they didn't need a console to play a football game with a controller (alone or together).

The last football game I owned was Fifa 99 for the PS1, which had been a Christmas gift, but I was still pretty decent at PES throughout the PS2 era just from all the times I had to sit down on a sofa with a controller in my hands. Yeah, you could play it on PC, too. But most people weren't interested in a PC for games, they just wanted a console to play PES and FIFA easily. That's a pretty good use case for a console. I wouldn't "expect more" from them, because they weren't gamers.

Huh? You wrote, specifically about PC gamers, this:

I had a Mega Drive before a PC, because they were very expensive, but by the mid 90s most middle class kids had both a PC and a console. Since football/soccer games are almost universally enjoyed here, nearly every PC gamer I knew in the 90s and beyond could at least play PES or FIFA with a controller.

...to which I replied the above. Not sure why you bring non-/casual-gamers into this now.

Ok, let's rewind before this turns into a bitch slapfest:
1. Jarlfrank claims only peasants owned consoles.
2. I said it's not my experience. Most middle-class people by the mid-90s owned both because it was fun to play arcade style games with friends. Consoles were also cheaper.
3. I also claimed that nearly every PC gamer onwards(from 90s to today) could play with a controller because of how universally enjoyed football games were.
4. You said that you could play those games on PC, but you couldn't expect much from people who did it on console (a.k.a they're stupid, at least that's how I understood it).
5. I called you a friendless loser for making that assumption, because playing these games on console was unavoidable if you had friends, and most of those friends wouldn't be gamers who owned a PC for gaming.

The misunderstanding probably comes from 3. I didn't claim that nearly every PC gamer from the 90s onward owned a console to play games, only that they knew how to play them on console. Specifically, even those who didn't own consoles to play arcade games (see 2) could play football games on console.

I'd like to add that many PC gamers owned games on consoles even if they those games were on the PC, because they expected to play with friends on the sofa. You don't necessarily want to bring people to your room to play on your PC.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

The last football game I owned was Fifa 99 for the PS1, which had been a Christmas gift, but I was still pretty decent at PES throughout the PS2 era just from all the times I had to sit down on a sofa with a controller in my hands. Yeah, you could play it on PC, too. But most people weren't interested in a PC for games, they just wanted a console to play PES and FIFA easily. That's a pretty good use case for a console. I wouldn't "expect more" from them, because they weren't gamers.

One of the biggest flaws with modern game is too much choice severely limits the genres people play. As a kid we had racing games, sports games, rpgs, platformers and every form of violence known to man in our collection. Now we have so many options we never pick up a sports game or a racing game. We get pigeon holed into our pet genres and miss out on so much surrounding them

 

[Silverfish]

Nintendo causing a lot of butthurt ITT

You can't be the king without having a target on your back.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

One of these days I'll finally play Mario 64.

My condolences mate.

I remember game reviewers were already fellating it when it came out(I remember this shitty TV show where they called it the best game ever). Even as a kid it seemed somewhat suspicious, as if they were using it to bolster the N64, which didn't seem like a very interesting console, otherwise. This was 1996, a lot of revolutionary shit was coming out every month in every genre. Mario 64 seemed kind of odd in that regard, a sort of throwback. As a 10 year old kid, would you rather play with Lara Croft and shoot dinosaurs or fuckin' Mario in cotton candy world? Of course, if you were stuck with a Nintendo, like apparently a lot of American kids...

 

[Falksi]

One of these days I'll finally play Mario 64.

My condolences mate.

I remember game reviewers were already fellating it when it came out(I remember this shitty TV show where they called it the best game ever). Even as a kid it seemed somewhat suspicious, as if they were using it to bolster the N64, which didn't seem like a very interesting console, otherwise. This was 1996, a lot of revolutionary shit was coming out every month in every genre. Mario 64 seemed kind of odd in that regard, a sort of throwback. As a 10 year old kid, would you rather play with Lara Croft and shoot dinosaurs or fuckin' Mario in cotton candy world? Of course, if you were stuck with a Nintendo, like apparently a lot of American kids...

Yep, and I was sadly one of the victims of it at the time. I skipped the Saturn because my mate got one instead so I opted for the N64 so that between us both we had access to both libraries, and boy did I fucking regret it.

The N64 was/is (I still have the fucking piece of shit at my dads lol) THE worst console I've ever owned hands down. Playing Mario 64 completely gutted me, I was a big fan of Super Mario World and this clunky, awkward camera battle that was Mario 64 played like shit in comparison to it. Turok followed....crap, not a patch on PC FPS games. Ocarina of Time followed...a HUGE downgrade fro Link To The Past, again clunky and cumbersome with the difficulty dialed back to infant level for the puzzles and enemies. Goldeneye followed....liked it!!!....and then Hexen 2 & Quake 2 came out and blew it away very shortly after I tried several other games but the only game I ever truly liked for the system was F-Zero, not one other game would interest me to play now.

Throw in the lack of RPGs, the lack of 2D games, and it's woeful controller and it's a complete pile of shite. Mario 64 is the Emperors New Cloths of games....only blinkered tards think it should ever feature as one of the best games ever.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Throw in the lack of RPGs, the lack of 2D games, and it's woeful controller and it's a complete pile of shite. Mario 64 is the Emperors New Cloths of games....only blinkered tards think it should ever feature as one of the best games ever.

What's wrong with Quest 64!?!

I own it and it's pretty janky but I think it might be worth a play through on emulator to speed it up a bit.

 

[sser]

Games like Earthbound and Chrono Trigger were commercial flops made for niche markets and are held up as giants of the SNES library.

and Skyroads:



Just to name 2 examples, which were pretty popular back then alongside Jazz Jackrabbit and other PC games, yet they've been totally erased from history.

Good lord. I've been trying to figure out what game Skyroads was for 25ish years. I played it a lot at a crazy neighbor's house, so I have these weird memories attached to it -- like being in the living room and the neighbor's mom walking out buckass naked to ask us what we wanted for dinner. Varicose veins all green and purple up her thighs. Orange afro hair. Flabbiness all over puddying atop firm, giant hobbit feet. Huge bush, of course. Skyroads was a blast.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Good lord. I've been trying to figure out what game Skyroads was for 25ish years. I played it a lot at a crazy neighbor's house, so I have these weird memories attached to it -- like being in the living room and the neighbor's mom walking out buckass naked to ask us what we wanted for dinner. Varicose veins all green and purple up her thighs. Orange afro hair. Flabbiness all over puddying atop firm, giant hobbit feet. Huge bush, of course. Skyroads was a blast.

Sser's first experience seeing a woman naked. Space bar clacking, music jamming and then he turns his head and..

 

[mindx2]

Americans need to be banned from any gaming community. America is the land of consolefaggotry. Even Japan, where PC gamers are rare, is less consolefaggy than the American mainstream.

Meanwhile based Europeans are PC gamers to the core. Only peasants own consoles here.

My friend, you wound me. I'm one red blooded American who doesn't have consolitist!