Historical Revisionism in Video Game and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[Morpheus Kitami]

5th gen probably has a few games like it and I wouldn't consider ICO to be in the same genre but I get where you're coming from.

I think as far as 5th gen was concerned, you had a N64 Hercules game based off the Kevin Sorbo series, and a very janky PSX game whose name I forgot. 6th gen, as Louis_Cypher mentioned, had Okami and quasi-sequel Okamiden. Hence why people tend to praise Ocarina of Time. Not many games imitate the kind of small open-world action-adventure that it goes for. There were a lot of action-adventure games in the 5th and 6th gens that imitated stuff Zelda did, but it usually went as far as having Metroid-ish level design rather than a true open world. A lot of stuff mentioned like Soul Reaver and ICO have some mechanics from Zelda, but not the whole thing. Kind of how like so many games in the 5th gen imitated stuff from Tomb Raider, but completely failed to understand why Tomb Raider was the way it was.

I noticed it with Resident Evil 1 Remake, everyone shitted on it during it's original release because it was more of the same, now it's regarded as the best thing ever.

Isn't it the opposite? I noticed that there's a bunch of hate for the remake in recent times, usually from people who played the original a ton, and thus, wouldn't notice most of the cool new tricks that the remake pulls out.

 

[Viata]

The simplest way to know the answer is to look up old magazines and see what they were saying about REmake 1. I do remember a lot of my friends praising it, to the point they would love to have a Gamecube just to play it.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I remember you were selling your collection to pay for your daughter's university. Was that the 1st or 2nd collection?

Second. The 3rd was started because I was kinda of bored during Covid lockdown and had more time for games. I feel that each successive collection has been better than the one proceeding it.

Could you explain how you do these collections? Seems respectable to go hunt in the world but there's so much ebay these days.

What?! And give away my trade secrets!!

Nah, usually I search online, including ebay, and wait to see someone selling a game I might be interested in that has no idea what they're selling. You would be surprised at how many people sell things without even trying to determine what they might actually be worth. Caveat here, by "actually worth" is solely in the eye of the collector. I avoid like the plague any "slabbed" game with a rating making them extremely overpriced!! That's just stupid (and a scam) to me and makes me... !!

I don't understand the appeal of ebay lurking. I understand the fun of the hunt at second hand shops and car boot sales. Does it give you a thrill to get a game below asking price?

Slabs can fuck right off. They have fucked up everything. Cards being graded highly and a year later it's been completely power crept in the game and you can get them for 10p each. So stupid.

The simplest way to know the answer is to look up old magazines and see what they were saying about REmake 1. I do remember a lot of my friends praising it, to the point they would love to have a Gamecube just to play it.

Gamespot gave it 8.9/10 and nominated it for multiple awards in 2002.
Gamepro said it's only flaw is not having any replayability.

Sold over a million copies in 6 years on a console considered a flop. So it did have a positive reception.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I was thinking the other day about which PC studios should probably be talked about with the same reverance that console gamers give to say Capcom and Konami. For me, a lot of my favorite experiences were from Interplay and MicroProse - those would be my PC choice for which names should have the same recognition. Nintendo-worship MSM journalists of course don't really have any consciousness of those names, but PC gamers remember them well - for X-COM, System Shock, Theme Park, Syndicate, Deus Ex, Civilization, Command & Conquer, Dark Forces, X-Wing, etc, etc:

Plus a few that are still around in a big way, but fallen from PC grace, either no longer developing games, no longer develop *good* games, barely develop games, were forced to work entirely on COD, were bought out by predatory publishers like EA, or became exclusively publishers:

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Legendary PC developers is much harder than console. Everyone can get 2D platformers and understand how to play them, as soon as you go too deep you're going to get into autistic slap fights. A lot of the games we played back then are now in genres we can't stand, I loved Warcraft 2 and CnC as a kid but I'm not sure I'd put them on the same level as Mario world today. The big console developers all made high quality but easy to digest games and that's the opposite of a lot of the best legendary PC games of the same era.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I went back and played C&C 1 last year (HD edition) and found I really enjoyed it still. It was smooth, the story/cutscenes were great, the missions were quick to jump into in any spare moment, not too long, the combat was high lethality (so not wasting the player's time). I think old PC stuff is a lot more playable than people realise. It doesn't have the reassurances that modern games do, like autosaves every few minutes, or respawning a few feet away when you die. So perhaps people assume it will all have that infamous problem of two hour missions where you can't save. Instead, the best ones already took heed of the player's time; manual saves anywhere, 15-20 minute missions, high lethality damage, etc.

 

[Viata]

A lot of the games we played back then are now in genres we can't stand

Talk about yourself, mate. Codex is not a hivemind. The games and genres I loved back then I still love them.

 

[Machocruz]

As someone who grew up mostly consolefag, original CnC and WC2 are the RTS equivalent of accessible arcade/console games to me. A lot of consolers/normies seem to appreciate AoE2 as well. I think the more you expand in number and variety of units to account for, the amount of map area to cover, etc. the harder to digest for the average person RTS become.

I was thinking the other day about which PC studios should probably be talked about with the same reverance that console gamers give to say Capcom and Konami. For me, a lot of my favorite experiences were from Interplay and MicroProse - those would be my PC choice for which names should have the same recognition. Nintendo-worship MSM journalists of course don't really have any consciousness of those names, but PC gamers remember them well - for X-COM, System Shock, Theme Park, Syndicate, Deus Ex, Civilization, Command & Conquer, Dark Forces, X-Wing, etc, etc:

LG are a top 3 developer, easily.

The media and developers themselves won't admit how influential PC games have been, outside of Diablo and Doom. Half the industry have been ripping off Ultima and System Shock for decades, with no credit given. This is how they can get away with calling every other big game that comes out "revolutionary", as they did in the 7th console generation, and people will believe it. That is what The Decline is, watered down, dumbed down afterbirth of PC gaming, aided by historical myopia and dishonesty.

 

[Falksi]

Legendary PC developers is much harder than console. Everyone can get 2D platformers and understand how to play them, as soon as you go too deep you're going to get into autistic slap fights. A lot of the games we played back then are now in genres we can't stand, I loved Warcraft 2 and CnC as a kid but I'm not sure I'd put them on the same level as Mario world today. The big console developers all made high quality but easy to digest games and that's the opposite of a lot of the best legendary PC games of the same era.

Laughs in Doom

 

[Athena]

Along with most of retro PC gaming not receiving due praise, I lament also the oblivion that arcade gaming has fallen into. Often a platform to push the envelope, now completely forgotten by supposed "experts" who go all the way to avoid including arcade games in their top all time lists. When the games aren't constantly being re-released, they might as well not exist in the collective conscious.

 

[Falksi]

Along with most of retro PC gaming not receiving due praise, I lament also the oblivion that arcade gaming has fallen into. Often a platform to push the envelope, now completely forgotten by supposed "experts" who go all the way to avoid including arcade games in their top all time lists. When the games aren't constantly being re-released, they might as well not exist in the collective conscious.

100%

I've still never played a game as exciting, and in part immersive, as the Afterburner 2 arcade cab. How they don't even get a look in really shows how ignorant, simplistic and simply bad at gaming the people who do these "greatest ever" lists are.

 

[Viata]

Tbh, some arcade games are not that fun playing on Mame. The reason being the lack of those arcade cabs. It's probably the only thing I'd spent my money to have at home. Just imagine being able to play any of those taikan games at home, whenever you want, the full arcade experience.
Still, some shopping center here has games like Daytonna USA, House of the Dead 4, etc, that I still go there to play whenever I go out with gf. Sadly, they have started to replace old arcade cabs, the ones that had CRTs, with modern "arcades", probably some computer running Mame or whatever on background, +300 games to choose and shitty LCD/LED/whatever monitor.
Man, my favorite experience is playing Darius on a 3-screen arcade, it's sad that only in Japan I'll be able to experience it again.

 

[Nutmeg]

There are two main kinds and perspectives on Arcade games 1. As spectacles or thrill rides or 2. As highly condensed, highly challenging and high skill ceiling competitive gaming.

For the latter, for the most part*, you don't need anything except an input device of your choosing (I switched back from a stick to my keyboard for most of my arcade gaming recently -- the stick started acting up and it was always a hassle to clear the desk and plug it in) and maybe a good CRT shader and 4K display for it if you are so inclined (I certainly am).

As for 3 screen games, an ultra wide LCD with a shader will do the trick, and IMO look even better than the original as pixels will be aligned perfectly without any distortions from the mirrors.

*There are some serious arcade games (i.e. not the thrill ride variety) which had hydraulic seats e.g. Metal Hawk.

 

[Falksi]

Tbh, some arcade games are not that fun playing on Mame. The reason being the lack of those arcade cabs. It's probably the only thing I'd spent my money to have at home. Just imagine being able to play any of those taikan games at home, whenever you want, the full arcade experience.
Still, some shopping center here has games like Daytonna USA, House of the Dead 4, etc, that I still go there to play whenever I go out with gf. Sadly, they have started to replace old arcade cabs, the ones that had CRTs, with modern "arcades", probably some computer running Mame or whatever on background, +300 games to choose and shitty LCD/LED/whatever monitor.
Man, my favorite experience is playing Darius on a 3-screen arcade, it's sad that only in Japan I'll be able to experience it again.

This is where context is king. If you're a "gaming expert" who claims they're in a position, or who's publication is in a position, to make such lists then someone there should have played these games in their original form.

I last went to the Arcade in October, I'm back there again in March, here's me playing Manx TT Superbike...

If I can be bothered to do that as a casual gamer out for a blast with mates, journos should get off their lazy arses and actually start doing some journalistic investigation. I'll place Manx TT above any fucking Mario Kart game I've played, Mario Kart 8 Delux made number 72 on that IGN list....fucking hilarious. Sitting on that cab and swathing from side to side is way more of a buzz than fucking Mario Kart lol.

There are two main kinds and perspectives on Arcade games 1. As spectacles or thrill rides or 2. As highly condensed, highly challenging and high skill ceiling competitive gaming.

For the latter, you don't need anything except an input device of your choosing (I switched back from a stick to my keyboard for most of my arcade gaming recently -- the stick started acting up and it was always a hassle to clear the desk and plug it in) and maybe a good CRT shader and 4K display for it if you are so inclined (I certainly am).

For me the truth is both, which is partly why I think the good ones are so great and so underrated.

 

[Viata]

look even better than the original

Fuck you!

2. As highly condensed, highly challenging and high skill ceiling competitive gaming.

These I still play on Mame. My post was mostly for taikan games.

 

[Machocruz]

Along with most of retro PC gaming not receiving due praise, I lament also the oblivion that arcade gaming has fallen into. Often a platform to push the envelope, now completely forgotten by supposed "experts" who go all the way to avoid including arcade games in their top all time lists. When the games aren't constantly being re-released, they might as well not exist in the collective conscious.

100%

I've still never played a game as exciting, and in part immersive, as the Afterburner 2 arcade cab. How they don't even get a look in really shows how ignorant, simplistic and simply bad at gaming the people who do these "greatest ever" lists are.

Neither classic arcade or PC games give them warm fuzzies. Hard to get fee fees from games that expect you to be competent or get filtered.

I have nothing but fond memories of the arcades, the games were pure stimulation and survival. Competition was fierce, iron sharpened iron, and if you didn't master your craft, your machine got passed by. I think consoles don't get off the ground if they don't offer "the arcade at home," that's how addicting arcade games were. There is a sort of revisionism now that suggests they were too hard or unfair and were thus niche type games destined to die out. Fake news. All kinds of people flocked to arcades. Of course there were levels to it like there is with anything else, let's not pretend punishing shmups were the norm. There were NES games more frustrating than anything in arcades. And there's crap in every field. Good arcade games provide moment-to-moment satisfaction, not being able to get far isn't a "flaw" like it is in padded-out games. I've not yet completed a Metal Slug in 3 credits or less, but still among the most fun I've ever had with games.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Along with most of retro PC gaming not receiving due praise, I lament also the oblivion that arcade gaming has fallen into. Often a platform to push the envelope, now completely forgotten by supposed "experts" who go all the way to avoid including arcade games in their top all time lists. When the games aren't constantly being re-released, they might as well not exist in the collective conscious.

Arcades being unique pieces of hardware was interesting and probably the only thing historically important. You can get a damn near perfect home experience by playing arcade games with a fight stick on mame these days. But there's no replacement for playing time crisis or house of the dead. It just doesn't exist in the same way. Maybe VR can offer something similar but it's different.

Along with most of retro PC gaming not receiving due praise, I lament also the oblivion that arcade gaming has fallen into. Often a platform to push the envelope, now completely forgotten by supposed "experts" who go all the way to avoid including arcade games in their top all time lists. When the games aren't constantly being re-released, they might as well not exist in the collective conscious.

100%

I've still never played a game as exciting, and in part immersive, as the Afterburner 2 arcade cab. How they don't even get a look in really shows how ignorant, simplistic and simply bad at gaming the people who do these "greatest ever" lists are.

Neither classic arcade or PC games give them warm fuzzies. Hard to get fee fees from games that expect you to be competent or get filtered.

I have nothing but fond memories of the arcades, the games were pure stimulation and survival. Competition was fierce, iron sharpened iron, and if you didn't master your craft, your machine got passed by. I think consoles don't get off the ground if they don't offer "the arcade at home," that's how addicting arcade games were. There is a sort of revisionism now that suggests they were too hard or unfair and were thus niche type games destined to die out. Fake news. All kinds of people flocked to arcades. Of course there were levels to it like there is with anything else, let's not pretend punishing shmups were the norm. There were NES games more frustrating than anything in arcades. And there's crap in every field. Good arcade games provide moment-to-moment satisfaction, not being able to get far isn't a "flaw" like it is in padded-out games. I've not yet completed a Metal Slug in 3 credits or less, but still among the most fun I've ever had with games.

While that maybe your experience it's also revisionism. The vast majority of people didn't live near, nor go to arcades. They were pretty expensive and often full of sketchy people. The "Arcades were so fucking cool and bro the fighting game community!" shit is 100% bullshit for almost every person who played arcade games growing up. Arcade machines were common in fast food places, pubs and leisure centers. So the average experience is ordering your fish and ships and playing a couple of rounds of street fighter 2 while you wait. Getting pissed and challenging your mate to a quiz machine or playing a game of whatever football game was there. Or the "Mum, can I have a quid to play Area 51?" after you went swimming. There was a huge industry for arcade machines in general life to the point where some super markets would have a shoot 'em up or something by the door for kids to play while the parents went shopping. In the 70s your parents probably played arcade games at the pub the same way they played pool and darts (translate into whatever your culture does when getting drunk as young people). The majority of arcades were quite dirty and often ran more like casinos with a lot of one armed bandits (slot machines) taking up most the floor space. They often spelt of spilled beer, fags and body odor in a way no kid would want to hang around there for long.

I don't mean to say you didn't have the childhood you did, because you know better about that than I do. But this idea that arcades are some holy mecca of games every kid wished to be in and it's the total legit way to play arcade games just isn't true. I have fond memories of generic shoot 'em ups at random take aways we only visited once or playing Willow at an in door market. Arcade machines were more common out in the wild than they were in actual arcades.

 

[Nutmeg]

There are plenty of considerations that go into the design of an arcade game. Primarily how many coins it would take for an interested player to either get too frustrated, annoyed or bored through lack of challenge or sense of achievement to stop returning to the machine.

Boredom arises when the game is too easy, and there's no sense of achievement in either clearing it or getting a good score.

Frustration arises when repeatedly playing the game doesn't improve the player's skill so they can progress further towards a clear or obtain higher scores.

Annoyance arises when the game's challenge is purely a matter of foresight. It also leads to boredom if the player tolerates the "challenge" as it goes away entirely once the player learns it or simply from watching another player play.

The other consideration was how many coins per unit of time the machine would make, or, more socially, how quickly the machine could rotate players -- it was no good to have a skilled player hog the machine for 3+ hours on one coin because they could loop the game over a dozen times, both for the revenue, and for the other players waiting their turn. It was also no good to have an unskilled player chasing their next challengeless skinner box treat for hours on end -- operators wanted games that would kick players off but also make them want to come back.

As a result the competitive pressure was to produce nothing but compressed meaningful, challenging, gameplay. No lengthy unskippable cinematics, no boring dialogue, no skinner boxing. All the sins of poor game design simply had no home at the arcade.

So, even though I grew up dirt poor and at most had 2 coins to spend if I ever went to an arcade, and as a result built absolutely no attachment at all to the arcade experience (not to mention we didn't have any good games where I lived), I am still very fond of arcade games because their design constraints simply produced many great games I like to play through emulation.

 

[Vic]

so Falksi is bald huh, very contrary to the flowing blond locks of his avatar

 

[Viata]

so Falksi is bald huh

A fellow bald man.

 

[Machocruz]

I don't mean to say you didn't have the childhood you did, because you know better about that than I do. But this idea that arcades are some holy mecca of games every kid wished to be in and it's the total legit way to play arcade games just isn't true. I have fond memories of generic shoot 'em ups at random take aways we only visited once or playing Willow at an in door market. Arcade machines were more common out in the wild than they were in actual arcades.

Nice dramatization of what I said. How did you get "holy mecca of games every kid wished to be in" or it's "the" way from me saying I have fond memories and that all kinds of people played arcade games? All kinds of people did, contrary to the notion that some people have the only nerds played video games. I did the big arcade thing, which were common in midwest America, and the pizza place thing, mostly the former so that's mainly what I spoke on, but you're focused on the type of building for some reason as if we're not talking about arcade games in general. The vast majority didn't have consoles or gaming computers either, or played video games for that matter. Let's stick to what's relevant to the subject. Maybe in Appalachia they can't afford a quarter to play a game, but that's not the vast majority either.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Is the cat supposed to be a wig, then?

 

[Viata]

Is the cat supposed to be a wig, then?

The less you know

 

[Vic]

maybe he is the cat

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I don't mean to say you didn't have the childhood you did, because you know better about that than I do. But this idea that arcades are some holy mecca of games every kid wished to be in and it's the total legit way to play arcade games just isn't true. I have fond memories of generic shoot 'em ups at random take aways we only visited once or playing Willow at an in door market. Arcade machines were more common out in the wild than they were in actual arcades.

Nice dramatization of what I said. How did you get "holy mecca of games every kid wished to be in" or it's "the" way from me saying I have fond memories and that all kinds of people played arcade games? All kinds of people did, contrary to the notion that some people have the only nerds played video games. I did the big arcade thing, which were common in midwest America, and the pizza place thing, mostly the former so that's mainly what I spoke on, but you're focused on the type of building for some reason as if we're not talking about arcade games in general. The vast majority didn't have consoles or gaming computers either, or played video games for that matter. Let's stick to what's relevant to the subject. Maybe in Appalachia they can't afford a quarter to play a game, but that's not the vast majority either.

The perception of arcades is being heavily revised. Most people I knew didn't go to arcades and did own a home console. It's a weirdly American thing to have this nerd/jock divide when I used to kick the ass of the local football team at Mortal Kombat. There's a difference between an arcade machine in a chip shop and chuck-e-cheese which is a very American thing and some how bled into European gaming culture.