KickStarter Grim Dawn

[Lacrymas]

Actually, in a lot of places GD is better than D2 (blasphemy! heretic! etc.). The only thing I miss is the necromancer (wooo expansion) and a Javazon type of character, Panetti's too finicky to be a good substitute. Yes, the gothic horror aesthetic has been replaced with a Lovecraftian one (humanity being insignificant in the face of the cosmic powers), but I like it as well. Diablo 2 also suffered from too-much-grinding syndrome, though I'm not at max level to judge GD on this point yet. I despise grinding in all its forms (paradoxically I played WoW when it wasn't shit (though I usually never grinded) and I like the hack and slash genre, go figure), but GD has been varied enough that I haven't burned out on it yet.

Some people would argue that teleport ruined D2, but since I didn't play it religiously I can't form an opinion on that. Some people also argue that synergies ruined D2. I argue that 10 years+ of repetitiveness killed D2 :p

 

[GrainWetski]

Not like you actually need to ever reach max level in this type of game. Good luck getting max level in the Soulvizier mod for TQ, for example.

I think these games should have a nearly unreachable max level. Getting a small side benefit while doing boss/item runs is nice.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Synergies were the chemo that cured Diablo 2. Whoever said that they killed the game is a gay. Maybe it messed up some banal PvP meta that I don't care about, but there was nothing quite like wasting your skill points on spells/skills that you wouldn't use anymore at high levels, didn't benefit your other spells in any way at all and weren't respecable(at the time). Yes, I agree, Grim Dawn improves on Diablo 2. Grim Dawn is a true evolution of the genre in many ways, especially in the QoL department. The same way Diablo 2 pushed the genre forward, so does Grim Dawn, unlike most other ARPGs that have come between this and Diablo 2. I didn't like PoE much because it was too much stuck in the past, as it relentlessly held on the all the flaws of Diablo 2 as well as the good things.

 

[Lacrymas]

Maybe it messed up some banal PvP meta that I don't care about

The argument was that it killed a lot of viable builds by making others overpowered. They were right. You couldn't pump more than 20 points in a skill, so putting them in other places besides your main attack was your only choice anyway. The synergies made the high level spells incredibly overpowered compared to the lower leveled ones and basically made them obsolete. I don't know whether this is a PvE, a PvP, or both, argument, but PvE in D2 was somewhat shit (don't like Baal runs ad infinitum/nauseam? Too bad, here's some more Baal runs). PvP was the only thing giving meaning to having good items and being overpowered compared to the mobs. At one point the mobs and bosses stopped providing any kind of resistance or challenge, so it was pointless farming them just so you could farm them some more.

 

[Lacrymas]

Just killed the Loghorrean for the first time... bullshit fight. Died like 5 times because the mobs surround me and I can't move + the bullshit doom bolts the Loghorrean casts (or whoever casts them). Also, the Necropolis is really devoid of anything worthwhile and it's just copy-pasted graves ad nauseam. The atmosphere in the Tomb of the Watchers was awesome though and the build-up to the Loghorrean was good. Very disappointed in the Necropolis though, cause I always imagined it as something more than ...nothing, I guess. It really is pointless, there aren't even any quests in it, except for bounties and the main one. I'd say the last half of act 4 is rushed, but afaik that's because they pushed it out for the steam sale and are going to patch it more?

 

[ArchAngel]

Does the father of the necro faction appear in act 4 or is he mentioned?
I know he is mentioned in that bonus high level areas that was added east of Burwitch where you fight through hordes of Trolls and bugs and then undead and fight that undead Lion or whatever.

 

[abija]

Yes, I agree, Grim Dawn improves on Diablo 2. Grim Dawn is a true evolution of the genre in many ways, especially in the QoL department. The same way Diablo 2 pushed the genre forward, so does Grim Dawn, unlike most other ARPGs that have come between this and Diablo 2. I didn't like PoE much because it was too much stuck in the past, as it relentlessly held on the all the flaws of Diablo 2 as well as the good things.

How exactly is GD a true evolution and pushes the genre forward? Give some examples when you come with random PR bullshit.
Atm is not even in the same league with PoE, hell is considerably worse than TL2 (if you could stomach the art style). Bonus points that they even rush the release, probably out of money again or smthing.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Yes, I agree, Grim Dawn improves on Diablo 2. Grim Dawn is a true evolution of the genre in many ways, especially in the QoL department. The same way Diablo 2 pushed the genre forward, so does Grim Dawn, unlike most other ARPGs that have come between this and Diablo 2. I didn't like PoE much because it was too much stuck in the past, as it relentlessly held on the all the flaws of Diablo 2 as well as the good things.

How exactly is GD a true evolution and pushes the genre forward? Give some examples when you come with random PR bullshit.
Atm is not even in the same league with PoE, hell is considerably worse than TL2 (if you could stomach the art style). Bonus points that they even rush the release, probably out of money again or smthing.

LOL. I'll not even waste my time explaining why GD is good if you think TL2 is better.

 

[prodigydancer]

Atm is not even in the same league with PoE, hell is considerably worse than TL2

PoEx isn't so bad, I give you that, but you might want to take off your rose-tinted glasses. It suffers from poor design decisions, e.g. circuit board style skill tree looks impressive at first glance but then you realize that from a utilitarian point of view it's just a mess. Monster density is through the roof everywhere - maybe some people think it's good but to me it kind of kills the atmosphere. And VFX overload in the endgame will make your eyes bleed. Still, it's a decent ARPG and GD will have to complete with it in some aspects.

TL2 on the other hand was just a cheap D3 clone. An as much as I hate D3, I at least have to give its credit for having some nice character skills. TL2 was derivative and recycled from top to bottom.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Not to mention that TL2 is a mechanical mess. It has probably the worst mechanics I've seen in an ARPG ever, even more degenerate than Soldak ARPGs. They couldn't even get the basic stats balanced properly. The skills were mostly rather uninspired, but what was worst about them was that you were arbitrarily locked out of putting points into your favorite skills ever 2, 4, 8 levels. The horrible thing about this was that many skills didn't synergies well with each other and so you'd end up with an excess of skill points that you couldn't spend on anything because it'd just be a waste. The Matt Uelmen soundtrack wasn't particularly interesting in either Torchlight games either. He was probably told to make it "sound like Diablo", and it kinda did, but it felt like there was less energy and passion put into it. One thing I'll say is that I did like the visuals, which most people give it shit for. I'm not a fan of that style, but it was well polished and the effects weren't bad from what I remember. I liked the pet, too.

Going back to skills/spells, that's one thing that I think Grim Dawn (and Titan's Quest) did the very best out of pretty much all ARPGs. I was never bothered by the idea of being arbitrarily locked out of certain skills and spells behind a level wall, but the way TQ/GD let you set your own pace at which you gained new abilities was a stroke of genius design. Sure you could gimp yourself for a few levels if you wanted to rush for the higher end ones if they looked a lot more desireable to you, but at least that was possible.

 

[MrJohnson]

I don't like "endless" dungeons, so I don't like D3 and TL2. For me, there is no fun in running around in mazes all the time. I rather see the same boss for thousand times.

 

[Lacrymas]

Anyway, is a dual-pistol chaos-based build possible? If so, how? Occultist would be a must, but I don't know which other mastery to take. Any suggestions?

 

[abija]

First of all get your shit straight, TL2 wasn't a clone of D3, not even remotely close. It's another derivative work from D2 like PoE and TQ/GD.

Not to mention that TL2 is a mechanical mess. It has probably the worst mechanics I've seen in an ARPG ever, even more degenerate than Soldak ARPGs. They couldn't even get the basic stats balanced properly. The skills were mostly rather uninspired, but what was worst about them was that you were arbitrarily locked out of putting points into your favorite skills ever 2, 4, 8 levels. The horrible thing about this was that many skills didn't synergies well with each other and so you'd end up with an excess of skill points that you couldn't spend on anything because it'd just be a waste.

Going back to skills/spells, that's one thing that I think Grim Dawn (and Titan's Quest) did the very best out of pretty much all ARPGs. I was never bothered by the idea of being arbitrarily locked out of certain skills and spells behind a level wall, but the way TQ/GD let you set your own pace at which you gained new abilities was a stroke of genius design. Sure you could gimp yourself for a few levels if you wanted to rush for the higher end ones if they looked a lot more desireable to you, but at least that was possible.

Masteries aren't a similar limiting factor? Hell, you can't even respec out of them because... fuck if anyone knows. Stroke of genius my ass...
And why would you bring up balance, mechanical mess and how inspired the skills are in the state GD is in? Let me guess, having most of melee builds stuck to auto-attack procs is another stroke of genius...

And... you didn't even answer the question, how is GD evolving the genre? Don't tell me it's the TQ talent tree....

 

[Hobo Elf]

Anyway, is a dual-pistol chaos-based build possible? If so, how? Occultist would be a must, but I don't know which other mastery to take. Any suggestions?

If you look a few pages back you'll see that I made one. It's not that viable unless you get the Legendary Pistol with a proc that can debuff Chaos resistance. Loghorean was a real shitshow for that character.

First of all get your shit straight, TL2 wasn't a clone of D3, not even remotely close. It's another derivative work from D2 like PoE and TQ/GD.

Not to mention that TL2 is a mechanical mess. It has probably the worst mechanics I've seen in an ARPG ever, even more degenerate than Soldak ARPGs. They couldn't even get the basic stats balanced properly. The skills were mostly rather uninspired, but what was worst about them was that you were arbitrarily locked out of putting points into your favorite skills ever 2, 4, 8 levels. The horrible thing about this was that many skills didn't synergies well with each other and so you'd end up with an excess of skill points that you couldn't spend on anything because it'd just be a waste.

Going back to skills/spells, that's one thing that I think Grim Dawn (and Titan's Quest) did the very best out of pretty much all ARPGs. I was never bothered by the idea of being arbitrarily locked out of certain skills and spells behind a level wall, but the way TQ/GD let you set your own pace at which you gained new abilities was a stroke of genius design. Sure you could gimp yourself for a few levels if you wanted to rush for the higher end ones if they looked a lot more desireable to you, but at least that was possible.

Masteries aren't a similar limiting factor? Hell, you can't even respec out of them because... fuck if anyone knows. Stroke of genius my ass...
And why would you bring up balance, mechanical mess and how inspired the skills are in the state GD is in? Let me guess, having most of melee builds stuck to auto-attack procs is another stroke of genius...

And... you didn't even answer the question, how is GD evolving the genre? Don't tell me it's the TQ talent tree....

Masteries should be respecable, stats too. That's about all the arbitrariness of Grim Dawn. Not a bad track record. GD isn't 100% balanced because it's not a finished game, but it is far more balanced than PoE or TL2 are in this state. The last patches are balance tweaking before the final release. Whining about Auto-attack procs is your own fault for a lack of imagination if you can't make builds that are interesting to you. PoE suffers from the same problem, too, if you want to go down that route.

Yes, the TQ talent tree is evolving the genre. It's pushing things forward instead of staying in the past with arbitrary limits that were always kinda shit. It may not be perfection, but it's progress. It's giving the player more control over their characters destiny. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's not an evolution, btw. Deal with it.

 

[Lacrymas]

If you look a few pages back you'll see that I made one. It's not that viable unless you get the Legendary Pistol with a proc that can debuff Chaos resistance. Loghorean was a real shitshow for that character.

Yeah, I thought it would be something like that. Any suggestions for a dual-pistol char in general?

 

[prodigydancer]

First of all get your shit straight, TL2 wasn't a clone of D3, not even remotely close. It's another derivative work from D2 like PoE and TQ/GD.

Are you high? Every modern (pseudo-)isometric ARPG is a derivative from D2 in some way but that doesn't mean TL2 wasn't a D3 clone. Just like fact that back in 1993 there was a game called Doom doesn't mean that a linear corridor cutscene-heavy FPS isn't a CoD clone.

 

[Lacrymas]

I think you guys are confusing genre mimesis with derivation/imitation-bordering-on-plagiarism and the content itself. A genre is simply the outline that gives (familiar) shape to the content you fill it with. Of course it has its problems like any classification, but video games aren't advanced enough yet to warrant a more thorough look at the issue. Being in a genre has its strengths of tying a work logically if other, more obvious, signs are absent. GD, PoE, D3 etc. are all hack-and-slashers in the same sense The Hunchback of Notre-Dame and the Twilight books are both romance novels. Arguing what is derivative of what is a) pointless and b) misguided. The historical period of a work is very important of course, but it has no bearing on what you are fighting about.

 

[da_rays]

saw this thing at 40% on steam....and been lurking this thread a bit , so my first question is , in your opinion , worth the buy right now? I've been playing PoEx a bit with a buddy and been having somewhat fun, but GD atmosphere seem more appealing for me . Seconde question, I dont mind a different approach toward skills and builds , but are you guys having fun creating builds? Lots of viable stuff? I havent been following patch notes and so on , so i dont really know what have changed since i took a glimpse of it last year.

If you're the tl;dr type : What are the good thing of this game and what the worst shit it can offer you?

 

[Hobo Elf]

If you look a few pages back you'll see that I made one. It's not that viable unless you get the Legendary Pistol with a proc that can debuff Chaos resistance. Loghorean was a real shitshow for that character.

Yeah, I thought it would be something like that. Any suggestions for a dual-pistol char in general?

Yeah. Basically anything else will work just fine except Chaos. Even Chaos is good up to a point, it's just that the few Chaos resistant enemies are kinda show stoppers. Beyond that, I dunno. I prefer Soldier over Demo as the main Mastery because Fire Shot requires a load of Skill Points to be any good. Cadence is always godly and you can fix your lack of AoE with devotions.

 

[MrJohnson]

saw this thing at 40% on steam....and been lurking this thread a bit , so my first question is , in your opinion , worth the buy right now? I've been playing PoEx a bit with a buddy and been having somewhat fun, but GD atmosphere seem more appealing for me . Seconde question, I dont mind a different approach toward skills and builds , but are you guys having fun creating builds? Lots of viable stuff? I havent been following patch notes and so on , so i dont really know what have changed since i took a glimpse of it last year.

If you're the tl;dr type : What are the good thing of this game and what the worst shit it can offer you?

It's definitly worth to buy now, since it now is feature complete, so no more waiting for content for a while.
Best thing it offered for me: Item-Hoarding-Addiction I last got and enjoyed in D2.
Worst shit it can offer: The Endboss is kind of a bummer and sometimes you have a bad luck streak when it comes to drops for your build. Somedays I only find caster stuff with my soldier. Be aware that If you don't like the aspect of "experimenting with builds and get that perfect equipment and character development" in an somewhat closed enviorment content-wise you won't enjoy it. Basically what I'm trying to say is (it's like Diablo2) you need to like killing the same bad guys again and again to aquire epic lootz and giggle like a madman when you get something, just to start the whole thing anew.

 

[Zephyr Arsland]

Ah, it's refreshing to find shit being flinged around in the thread. I expected no less. I don't have anything to contribute except for the fact that I've been playing this since b17 (on and off, mostly) and I'm really excited about it. I absolutely hated D3 and TL2 felt shallow (albeit fun in bursts) and kinda uninspired. So, go GD!

... but I really resent the lack of a dedicated long range class. Where's the goddamn sniper/gunslinger/whatever?

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah. Basically anything else will work just fine except Chaos. Even Chaos is good up to a point, it's just that the few Chaos resistant enemies are kinda show stoppers. Beyond that, I dunno. I prefer Soldier over Demo as the main Mastery because Fire Shot requires a load of Skill Points to be any good. Cadence is always godly and you can fix your lack of AoE with devotions.

What about a second mastery? Arcanist, even though I kinda dislike it because it's too "good-for-everything"?

 

[abija]

Are you high? Every modern (pseudo-)isometric ARPG is a derivative from D2 in some way but that doesn't mean TL2 wasn't a D3 clone. Just like fact that back in 1993 there was a game called Doom doesn't mean that a linear corridor cutscene-heavy FPS isn't a CoD clone.

Did you even play the game? TL2 has pretty much everything D3 streamlined out of D2.

If you're the tl;dr type : What are the good thing of this game and what the worst shit it can offer you?

+ environments, atmosphere
- titan quest

 

[Hobo Elf]

Yeah. Basically anything else will work just fine except Chaos. Even Chaos is good up to a point, it's just that the few Chaos resistant enemies are kinda show stoppers. Beyond that, I dunno. I prefer Soldier over Demo as the main Mastery because Fire Shot requires a load of Skill Points to be any good. Cadence is always godly and you can fix your lack of AoE with devotions.

What about a second mastery? Arcanist, even though I kinda dislike it because it's too "good-for-everything"?

Arcanist and Occultist are the best choices. Occultist has Sigil of Consumption and Curse of Frailty which are godly. Arcanist has Iskandra's Elemental Exchange to boost that Elemental damage, Inner Focus, Maiven's, Mirror of Erections, and Callidor's Tempest + the Transmuter for some crowd control. To put it simply:

Arcanist offers some survi in the form of tankability thanks to Maiven's and Erectoes, a buff for Elemental damage and to apply Elemental DoTs and a PBAoE knockback, which isn't the greatest since it doesn't work on bigger boss monsters, but at least it's something.

Occultist offers more offensive utility. Curse of Frailty is nice since it slows movement speed and debuffs Phsyical and Elemental resistances. Very good. Sigil of Consumption does a lot of damage and heals you for a nice amount of health as well. Offers you some tankability while being offensive at the same time. Blood of Dreeg with Armor of the Guardian as one point wonders will heal you for 15% of your health and buff you 10% attack speed for 15 seconds which is a nice burst in DPS. Or you can spec deeper into them if you decide that you want to do Acid damage instead. Acid is objectively one of the best damage types in the game because there aren't that many monsters who are resistant to it, and you can debuff those who are.

 

[prodigydancer]

Did you even play the game? TL2 has pretty much everything D3 streamlined out of D2.

Manual stats allocation and /pvp are nice but they don't magically make TL2 a good ARPG. Like Hobo Elf already said, mechanically it was subpar and map design was pretty much 1:1 D3.

The only reason why TL2 was even noticed was that the community was totally pissed off by D3. Everyone rushed to give TL2 10/10 scores on MC just to make D3 look even more miserable in comparison. Personally I think it was childish and unnecessary.

In conclusion: D2 > TQ > PoEx > VH > D3 > TL2.

- titan quest

Here's your problem. You need to overcome your blind hatred towards TQ, then you'll be able to enjoy GD.