KickStarter Geneforge 1 - Mutagen - remake from Spiderweb Software

[Litmanen]

Oh, thank you. I'm reading all the threads about these games and no one ever speaks of that, C&C.

If you like C&C, play the Geneforge series.

I like both C&C and the different path, way, means, skills, dialogues through which you arrive to make a choice.

Thank you (both).

 

[Cologno]

I got the "Saga" version on Steam, not the remake, because it's got five games. The first one is good so far, and I don't get the sense they're overly long. I've been playing a couple of hours a day for two weeks and a glance at a guide said I'm about 2/3 through. That said, I could see getting burned out on these pretty easily.

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

I don't think a guide can really tell you how far you are from finishing. You can pretty much go as fast or slow as you want, even end the game before you do anything of note if you manage to sneak your way through a certain spot, which is what I did for fun after ~20 hours to see what the ending would be like.

 

[Cryomancer]

Din't played melee in this game but is truth that melee is OP in G1/2/3?

 

[Agesilaus]

Focus on 1, 2, and 3.

1, I completed and I don't consider too linear. It does lack in factions/sides, but the empire is sort of present and you can side with them so ok good enough. Also you can explore in multiple directions and have fun, it's not like you're overly railroaded by level requirements.

2, pure linearity and lack of any faction dynamics as far as I discovered. I went down into the deep caves and found the spoilers, then came back to get the crystals, stopped caring.

3, I don't remember, something about being under the gun because if you play too slow then stuff breaks. I think you're railroaded plot/faction wise, but honestly I don't remember.

Also I just don't care for avernum combat and mechanics. Geneforge and Avadon were both better in very different ways. They also had better theme/story and questions to consider. Ooh nooo I'm a criminal I got transported to a cave and want to get out waaaa fuck off

I think you're conflating non-linearity with choices and consequences when they're two different ideas. The Exile/Avernum games don't have a lot of C&C. They're heavily inspired by the Ultima series, but with a bigger focus on exploration. To me, Avadon felt like Vogel's attempt at a Bioware type game with a bigger focus on story and pre-made characters for party members.

A branching plot vs railroaded plot definitely speaks to linearity. I agree avernum 1 has non-linear exploration, and I said as much, although I think Avernum 2 is pretty railroaded even in that sense. But re: Avadon I agree with what you said there, Vogel was definitely doing something different, some of the changes initially pissed me off but ultimately I appreciated the focus on story and detailed characters.

Focus on 1, 2, and 3.

1, I completed and I don't consider too linear. It does lack in factions/sides, but the empire is sort of present and you can side with them so ok good enough. Also you can explore in multiple directions and have fun, it's not like you're overly railroaded by level requirements.

2, pure linearity and lack of any faction dynamics as far as I discovered. I went down into the deep caves and found the spoilers, then came back to get the crystals, stopped caring.

3, I don't remember, something about being under the gun because if you play too slow then stuff breaks. I think you're railroaded plot/faction wise, but honestly I don't remember.

Also I just don't care for avernum combat and mechanics. Geneforge and Avadon were both better in very different ways. They also had better theme/story and questions to consider. Ooh nooo I'm a criminal I got transported to a cave and want to get out waaaa fuck off

I think you're conflating non-linearity with choices and consequences when they're two different ideas. The Exile/Avernum games don't have a lot of C&C.

Oh, thank you. I'm reading all the threads about these games and no one ever speaks of that, C&C.

So, not a lot of C&C to change a little bit the game.

Neither in Avernum, nor Avadon, nor Geneforge?

I would say Geneforge > Avadon > Avernum. There's plenty of C&C in Geneforge, there's a couple of significant C&C decisions in Avadon titles, and avernum... lol. Well, the first one you could kind of LARP as an imperial enthusiast.

 

[Litmanen]

Focus on 1, 2, and 3.

1, I completed and I don't consider too linear. It does lack in factions/sides, but the empire is sort of present and you can side with them so ok good enough. Also you can explore in multiple directions and have fun, it's not like you're overly railroaded by level requirements.

2, pure linearity and lack of any faction dynamics as far as I discovered. I went down into the deep caves and found the spoilers, then came back to get the crystals, stopped caring.

3, I don't remember, something about being under the gun because if you play too slow then stuff breaks. I think you're railroaded plot/faction wise, but honestly I don't remember.

Also I just don't care for avernum combat and mechanics. Geneforge and Avadon were both better in very different ways. They also had better theme/story and questions to consider. Ooh nooo I'm a criminal I got transported to a cave and want to get out waaaa fuck off

I think you're conflating non-linearity with choices and consequences when they're two different ideas. The Exile/Avernum games don't have a lot of C&C. They're heavily inspired by the Ultima series, but with a bigger focus on exploration. To me, Avadon felt like Vogel's attempt at a Bioware type game with a bigger focus on story and pre-made characters for party members.

A branching plot vs railroaded plot definitely speaks to linearity. I agree avernum 1 has non-linear exploration, and I said as much, although I think Avernum 2 is pretty railroaded even in that sense. But re: Avadon I agree with what you said there, Vogel was definitely doing something different, some of the changes initially pissed me off but ultimately I appreciated the focus on story and detailed characters.

Focus on 1, 2, and 3.

1, I completed and I don't consider too linear. It does lack in factions/sides, but the empire is sort of present and you can side with them so ok good enough. Also you can explore in multiple directions and have fun, it's not like you're overly railroaded by level requirements.

2, pure linearity and lack of any faction dynamics as far as I discovered. I went down into the deep caves and found the spoilers, then came back to get the crystals, stopped caring.

3, I don't remember, something about being under the gun because if you play too slow then stuff breaks. I think you're railroaded plot/faction wise, but honestly I don't remember.

Also I just don't care for avernum combat and mechanics. Geneforge and Avadon were both better in very different ways. They also had better theme/story and questions to consider. Ooh nooo I'm a criminal I got transported to a cave and want to get out waaaa fuck off

I think you're conflating non-linearity with choices and consequences when they're two different ideas. The Exile/Avernum games don't have a lot of C&C.

Oh, thank you. I'm reading all the threads about these games and no one ever speaks of that, C&C.

So, not a lot of C&C to change a little bit the game.

Neither in Avernum, nor Avadon, nor Geneforge?

I would say Geneforge > Avadon > Avernum. There's plenty of C&C in Geneforge, there's a couple of significant C&C decisions in Avadon titles, and avernum... lol. Well, the first one you could kind of LARP as an imperial enthusiast.

I understand. Thank you again!

 

[HoboForEternity]

I got the "Saga" version on Steam, not the remake, because it's got five games. The first one is good so far, and I don't get the sense they're overly long. I've been playing a couple of hours a day for two weeks and a glance at a guide said I'm about 2/3 through. That said, I could see getting burned out on these pretty easily.

The problems i have eith the later games are hp and stat bloat. Some monsters have like +2000 hp in a series where the average HP is in 3 digits numbers. I guess it's a way to portray increasing stakes but damn endgame can be tedious.

 

[Cologno]

I got the "Saga" version on Steam, not the remake, because it's got five games. The first one is good so far, and I don't get the sense they're overly long. I've been playing a couple of hours a day for two weeks and a glance at a guide said I'm about 2/3 through. That said, I could see getting burned out on these pretty easily.

The problems i have eith the later games are hp and stat bloat. Some monsters have like +2000 hp in a series where the average HP is in 3 digits numbers. I guess it's a way to portray increasing stakes but damn endgame can be tedious.

Oof. The first one is pretty good, tho. Encounters and story pretty well paced.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I got the "Saga" version on Steam, not the remake, because it's got five games. The first one is good so far, and I don't get the sense they're overly long. I've been playing a couple of hours a day for two weeks and a glance at a guide said I'm about 2/3 through. That said, I could see getting burned out on these pretty easily.

The problems i have eith the later games are hp and stat bloat. Some monsters have like +2000 hp in a series where the average HP is in 3 digits numbers. I guess it's a way to portray increasing stakes but damn endgame can be tedious.

Oof. The first one is pretty good, tho. Encounters and story pretty well paced.

It kept getting worse and worse as the series went on. Jeff has commented somewhere and said that he wants to remake G5 partly to fix the inane HP bloat.

 

[Agesilaus]

I got the "Saga" version on Steam, not the remake, because it's got five games. The first one is good so far, and I don't get the sense they're overly long. I've been playing a couple of hours a day for two weeks and a glance at a guide said I'm about 2/3 through. That said, I could see getting burned out on these pretty easily.

The problems i have eith the later games are hp and stat bloat. Some monsters have like +2000 hp in a series where the average HP is in 3 digits numbers. I guess it's a way to portray increasing stakes but damn endgame can be tedious.

Oof. The first one is pretty good, tho. Encounters and story pretty well paced.

Bloat or not, g4 and g5 are top tier crpgs

 

[HoboForEternity]

Agreed. They arent bad games by any means, but there is a glaring weakness to the chain

 

[Mauman]

Din't played melee in this game but is truth that melee is OP in G1/2/3?

1 and 3? NO. Melee is arguably the hardest playthrough for those two games (this applies to every Geneforge except 2).

2? 2 had a skill called parry and it was overtuned a bit. Some call it op, but I'd still say having a full team of summons is better than a parry build.

To my understanding, parry is getting hit with the nerf hammer for the remake.

 

[Rincewind]

So tell me, for a person who never played any Spiderweb game, are these remakes preferable to the originals? This review is not exactly endorsing the Geneforge 1 remake, but then it only focuses on some aspects of the game:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1424710/discussions/0/3109142236146418116/

The new graphics are nice, but then you don't play these games for the graphics. I'm fine with 80s RPGs on a C64, so I don't have much care for the "modern QoL improvements". I also find the original Rogue a lot more interesting than many "AAA" games. Plus the original versions have a certain lo-fi charm that is lost in these more "polished" remakes, but I'm just looking at screenshots.

But all this does not matter. If we disregard the superficialities and focus on the gameplay and general atmosphere, what's the verdict from people who have played *both* the originals and the remakes? (People who have only played either need not apply; I can flip a coin myself too...)

If the remakes make everything easier, that's a hard no.

According to a guy here, the Geneforge 1 remaster is the only worthwhile new version, but then goes "lol, you know what, just play the originals"
https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com...should-i-play-geneforge-1-classic-or-mutagen/

 

[Mauman]

So tell me, for a person who never played any Spiderweb game, are these remakes preferable to the originals? This review is not exactly endorsing the Geneforge 1 remake, but then it only focuses on some aspects of the game:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1424710/discussions/0/3109142236146418116/

The new graphics are nice, but then you don't play these games for the graphics. I'm fine with 80s RPGs on a C64, so I don't have much care for the "modern QoL improvements". I also find the original Rogue a lot more interesting than many "AAA" games. Plus the original versions have a certain lo-fi charm that is lost in these more "polished" remakes, but I'm just looking at screenshots.

But all this does not matter. If we disregard the superficialities and focus on the gameplay and general atmosphere, what's the verdict from people who have played *both* the originals and the remakes? (People who have only played either need not apply; I can flip a coin myself too...)

If the remakes make everything easier, that's a hard no.

According to a guy here, the Geneforge 1 remaster is the only worthwhile new version, but then goes "lol, you know what, just play the originals"
https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com...should-i-play-geneforge-1-classic-or-mutagen/

I've played both the original and the remaster.

First and foremost, the game isn't "easier" in the sense that you hit harder or enemies have less hp. It might be easier in the sense that there are new mechanics that your summons can use. Though your enemies have access to them as well. Hell, a few skills actually got nerfs!.

That being said, it is "easier" in the sense that the ui and general usage of the game is infinitely better.

All of the same stuff that was good in the originals is still in the remaster. There's some new stuff that's mostly ok. A few moments of "eh", but for the most part it's fine.

I recommend the remaster if only so you don't have to deal with the horrible ui and controls. I know you say they don't matter, but it really does make a difference. The originals have not aged well when it comes to usage.

 

[Rincewind]

I recommend the remaster if only so you don't have to deal with the horrible ui and controls. I know you say they don't matter, but it really does make a difference. The originals have not aged well when it comes to usage.

Thanks, that's useful info. I just don't want play a "dumbed down" game, that's all. But it seems this is not the case here and the improvements outweigh the minor regressions.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Play both side by side. Progress so far then switch for a bit then back.

 

[Rincewind]

I have a lot of respect for this guy still going at it in his old age, so dropping him some cash.

 

[Anomander Rake]

I'm really tempted to buy Geneforge 2. But I will... pass.

I bought G1 due to curiosity, having never played any of Jeff' games.

It's a good game. But I don't find it great. Why, you may ask?

G1 allows you to go wherever you wish to go. So you can go in places with very high level creatures from the beginning. The mechanic I hate is the fact that you get a scripted +XP bonus or -XP malus according to the level of the creatures you face:

if you explore places with creatures with higher levels, you get a tons of xp (due to the +xp bonus), but once you do that and level up, if you go in the places you were supposed to go (and you were supposed to be there because the creatures had your same “level”), you are not going to get any xp, because the creatures you face won't have any xp to give you due to the scripted malus on xp. I hate this.

Basically, once you played the game you realize that you’d better use the route Jeff envisioned, because what you are going to get if you don’t do that is simply wasting a lot of your time.

I explain it more clearly: it takes less time killing creatures of your level.

If you explore high level places while being low level, you are going to take a lot of time killing (a) high level creature(s); you will get back only a meager part of that time when you face low level creatures if you have an high level (because by being higher level you kill low level creatures faster).

Basically, the system clashes with the supposed “freedom” that you should have in rpg. You do not have a pre-determined route to follow, but if you don't follow what's intended by the dev, you are simply
a) wasting your time
b) going to explore low level places only for a completionist thing, because being higher level you don’t get any xp, only lore related things and you still waste time killing the creatures (well you are indeed faster given that you are higher level).

Give me a bonus to kill high level creatures, but don’t punish me if I go to the places I was supposed to be before, later than intended. I hate this.

This reflects even in another instance in the game. In the beginning, you find a lot of sarcophagi. If you level up too much and "discover" them after having levelled up, you are simply losing points that you could be getting. I mean, Age of decadence showed that you can simply give the points that you would get as spare points.

Okay, maybe you can say I’m a powerplayer, but I hate a system where you have a fake liberty to explore (go where you ain’t supposed to go and waste your time, be it due to the time you need to kill stuff or by not being able to get xp in other places later) only because you have to sacrifice everything on the shrine of balance.

 

[Mauman]

Meh....it's like DnD. If you go around somehow slaughtering Balors before you're supposed to, suddenly killing a bunch of little kobolds isn't going to do you much good.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

A single xp is something but no xp is a waste.

 

[Mauman]

A single xp is something but no xp is a waste.

violence is it's own reward.

 

[Jack Slash]

A single xp is something but no xp is a waste.

The alternative progression mechanics in Geneforge tackle this issue pretty well. Even if you earn no exp, there will always be a use for spare living tools or money. Geneforge 2 remake ramped up the money requirements for skills pretty hard, so foraging the low-level locations for spare coins, crafting mats and other goodies pays off even for a high-level character.

But I also find it fun to first bash my head against the wall of hard encounters, then pop drakes like bubbles with a single overpowered poke of my pointy stick.

 

[Rincewind]

Play both side by side. Progress so far then switch for a bit then back.

Yeah, reading a bit more about the Exile vs Avernum differences makes me want to try Exile first and see how I like it.

I prefer system complexity and quirkiness to more dialogue and nicer gfx.

 

[Agesilaus]

Play both side by side. Progress so far then switch for a bit then back.

Yeah, reading a bit more about the Exile vs Avernum differences makes me want to try Exile first and see how I like it.

I prefer system complexity and quirkiness to more dialogue and nicer gfx.

Strictly in terms of the Geneforges, I would say that the remakes really are a step forward in almost every way. There are substantial expansions of the system too, specifically the addition in G1 & G2 of picking special abilities for the creations and the addition of new creations. Also, the weapon shaping in G2. I made the perhaps unwise decision to train my shaper class character in missile skill, and I am enjoying the weapon shaping. Thads have also won me over, in the original I was a strict fyora enthusiast until switching to magic. Now I try to level all the different shaping skills and make a mixed team that I change up depending on the circumstances.

I'm sure someone can come up with a reason to play the originals, but nothing immediately comes to mind. I guess some of the portraits are a little too life-like/photo-like for this particular game. The new questline in G1 was decent enough, I'm sure G2 is much the same. I'm currently remembering how much I appreciated Shanti and what a radical development 2 was over 1. Really looking forward to what he does with 3, which was my least favourite.

 

[Jack Slash]

I'm sure someone can come up with a reason to play the originals

At this point, I think the originals should be reserved for when you have finished the remakes and are still hungry for more. Before delving into G1 and G2 remakes, I replayed G5 one more time, and the transition from G5 to the remakes in terms of convenience and UI was very smooth. Too bad that G3 is so railroaded - but I also remember Jeff acknowledging it in either a blog or a forum post and saying that it would requre the most amount of work in the series.