Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Final fantasy XIV any good?

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,295
You were extremely wrong or lied on purpose. I pointed it out. You spammed fud.

The way to make money in wow is pretty much the mmo standard with killing mobs being on purpose (because it's easiest to bot) the worst one of them. You gather, craft, do quests, retarded facebook minigames, play the ah or provide player services (boosting mostly). The price of the "plex" is based on how many people trade gold for it so the impact on the market has been minimal.
 

Mebrilia the Viera Queen

Guest
You were extremely wrong or lied on purpose. I pointed it out. You spammed fud.

The way to make money in wow is pretty much the mmo standard with killing mobs being on purpose (because it's easiest to bot) the worst one of them. You gather, craft, do quests, retarded facebook minigames, play the ah or provide player services (boosting mostly). The price of the "plex" is based on how many people trade gold for it so the impact on the market has been minimal.
Have you seen the video i linked tho?
 

Mebrilia the Viera Queen

Guest
Coincidentally, reading a page full of you two retards arguing is about the average MMO chat experience.
Wich is pretty based honestly and what the codex should be about. I respect a lot a discussion with someone i disagree with on gaming that just having one of the many blatant shitposters that hijack conversations.

By the way i am one of those mmo players that used to play UO and likes a lot variant elementa in Mmo ff scratches that itch for me expecially woth housing crafting and glamour.

Both games ff14 and Wow progress in the same manner. The difference is in contents and in the way that handle them.
Ff14 is a mmo with all the mmo elements but is a ff game first in fact is heavier than wow in the story telling. Story telling that is very slow paced to then ramp up in heavensward providing an amazing storyline and chaeacter arcs till endwalker.
I wont suggest the game to those that crave only combat because while it has raids dungeons like wow is completely different on how you unlock them. All dungeons and raids in particular are tied to storylines. Also the ir no rush to reach the endgame and there is a lot of variation of content for pretty much many kind of players.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,422
08Wn1RN.jpg
Oh god fucking no!
NO!
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Meh, I am not here to defend WoW, its heyday was in like 2006 or so, and even then, it was but a shadow of what MMOs can be, but that doesn't excuse FF14 from being ... bleh in various ways.

The combination of hours of text/dialogue dumps when you begin with the general silliness of the setting (cat people, rabbit people, small children people, everyone having a dumbass pet) just bores me completely.

I feel like the death of the MMO genre, heralded by WoW's massive financial success and the flood of copycats that followed has really set the bar way too low.

The potential of a well done sandbox MMO is still up there with anything, but no one is doing them (except maybe Raph Koster in 20 years, but given the track record of old legends recently, it will probably be shit). Imagine a sandbox MMO with Eve Online's metagame but actual fun gameplay. Player run politics, player run wars, player run economy, player run cities and colonization but without massive griefing currently prevalent in such games.... It would be so amazing... And yet, people are now settling for games with rabbit people...
 

Mebrilia the Viera Queen

Guest
Meh, I am not here to defend WoW, its heyday was in like 2006 or so, and even then, it was but a shadow of what MMOs can be, but that doesn't excuse FF14 from being ... bleh in various ways.

The combination of hours of text/dialogue dumps when you begin with the general silliness of the setting (cat people, rabbit people, small children people, everyone having a dumbass pet) just bores me completely.

I feel like the death of the MMO genre, heralded by WoW's massive financial success and the flood of copycats that followed has really set the bar way too low.

The potential of a well done sandbox MMO is still up there with anything, but no one is doing them (except maybe Raph Koster in 20 years, but given the track record of old legends recently, it will probably be shit). Imagine a sandbox MMO with Eve Online's metagame but actual fun gameplay. Player run politics, player run wars, player run economy, player run cities and colonization but without massive griefing currently prevalent in such games.... It would be so amazing... And yet, people are now settling for games with rabbit people...
You are too early to say that. Keep in mind you see silly things now but is because you don't know a lot about them is a thing that often people do when playing ff the first time I had the same reaction. But the setting is one of the most robust i found in a MMO. Silliness start to fade away as soon you discover stuff. And much of the stuff is fucked up. Is fucked up badly in terms of lore.

For example, you see Viera or bunny people.
But they are usually reclusive in their jungles and kill on sight every trespasser. Females live in the villages, males live in solitude till is mating season and return briefly to the village. You can see a male Viera and consider him feminine there is even an explanation for that. Viera mature after 13 years before are genderless no male or female. Male Viera are little but also are by the lore the perfect hunters and the silent assassins that gets trespassers before reaching to them. And this is one of the little things that are in the setting. There are also mature thematics. Such a sexual abuse, prostitution murder, and cannibalism as well thematic like war and traumas as well the impact that has on people is far more complex you can imagine.
There is also a lot of sandbox elements in 14 not in form of pvp but for example in trading in open venues. A whole whole lot you can do. ((also you can disable pets))
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
Patron
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
13,553
Location
Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
The potential of a well done sandbox MMO is still up there with anything, but no one is doing them (except maybe Raph Koster in 20 years, but given the track record of old legends recently, it will probably be shit). Imagine a sandbox MMO with Eve Online's metagame but actual fun gameplay. Player run politics, player run wars, player run economy, player run cities and colonization but without massive griefing currently prevalent in such games.... It would be so amazing... And yet, people are now settling for games with rabbit people...
The main issue with this sort of thing is that whoever gets in first and gets powerful basically just dominates and wins the game forever. No one wants to get into something like that just to be the peasant who gets his ass kicked perpetually, so it's doomed to failure if you don't have guard rails or make it easy to cap out your power and then lateral progression or something similar.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Well, that's where old MMOs like UO, SWG, and EO were interesting: they were social experiments , and if you read Raph Koster's old interviews, he talks about in-depth psychology, social interactions and all the shit they had to consider, it was real deep shit. Along the way, that somehow got diluted down to skinner boxes that are modern MMOs.

If you really want to design a great MMO that takes advantage of the medium, you might have to hire real scientists, historians, etc to figure out functional mechanics for it, and after that fails, you might have to adjust them on the fly, and try new stuff until something works.

I will give you guys an example: so most sandbox MMOs (e.g. Mortal Online, Darkfall Online, UO and EO to some degree, and many others) fail because what happens is this: they attract asshole PK types who proceed to grief normal players. Farming noobs in starting areas, that sort of thing. Eventually the normal players get sick of it and leave the game, and then of course there is nothing for PKers to do also, so they leave as well.

So you can give up and say, oh this will never work, OR... you can look for inspiration from RL. RL also has its share of assholes, but they generally don't constantly attack normal people (outside of some shithole countries). Why? Because in RL, there are consequences. You might get killed/captured by cops, avenged by relatives, lose your life in the attack, etc. So the threat of the loss of life/freedom keeps most assholes from going off the reservation completely. They will still do it occasionaly (ie criminals), but only when the payout is worth the risk. So they might attack a rich merchant in a desolate place, but they wont just randomly run around killing everything in sight.

Now in games, you can't have the same threat to life, but I believe you can design game mechanics that impose a a realistic cost on the player for behaving badly. Some of the previous MMOs have tried that in various ways, but those were mostly clumsy (you turn red for a while where anyone can attack you without repercussion), and easily managed by the bad guys. I wonder whether with more thought put into this area, much more in-depth penalties can be designed that will limit the assholes to meaningful acts of nastiness instead of constant pointless griefing.

Same thing with one faction dominating. Why doesn't this happen in RL for too long? Because ultimately things like entropy and conflicting interests of individuals shatter factions and alliances. There is no reason why game mechanics could not be designed to simulate those in a game. If the game is deep enough, it could happen organically: with a deep player run politics system, you would likely see betrayals, backstabs, and factions splintering on their own. If not, you could simulate them with more abstract systems.

I realize all of this would be considerably more difficult than shitting out another Skinner box MMO with zero depth, but hey, at some point, once the themepark bs segment of the market is fully saturated by cat people games, there might be some money to be made in branching out.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Now in games, you can't have the same threat to life, but I believe you can design game mechanics that impose a a realistic cost on the player for behaving badly. Some of the previous MMOs have tried that in various ways, but those were mostly clumsy (you turn red for a while where anyone can attack you without repercussion), and easily managed by the bad guys. I wonder whether with more thought put into this area, much more in-depth penalties can be designed that will limit the assholes to meaningful acts of nastiness instead of constant pointless griefing.
Is it really still a sandbox if the designers are coming down and imposing their own laws('rules') on the players?
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
The greatest sandbox of them all (our universe) has a lot of rules. Developers would probably do well to simulate them.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Things like I mentioned before, cops, prisons, avenging relatives, posses, etc. They won't stop murder altogether, but they impose enough of a cost on it to limit it to a large degree. Criminals might still murder someone if the reward is huge or they REALLY hate them, but they don't go around killing people non-stop (like PKers do as far as griefing noobs).
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Things like I mentioned before, cops, prisons, avenging relatives, posses, etc. They won't stop murder altogether, but they impose enough of a cost on it to limit it to a large degree. Criminals might still murder someone if the reward is huge or they REALLY hate them, but they don't go around killing people non-stop (like PKers do as far as griefing noobs).
But that would be the equivalent of players deciding to punish other players for killing, not the developers stepping in to punish players for killing.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
In a perfect 1-to-1 simulation, yes. But because there are fundamental differences between games and RL, that usually won't happen. In RL, a person's life is important enough to them to spend the time to organize defense, elect a sherriff, etc, but in a game that people play for entertainment, they usually won't spend the time to do that.

Another example of such differences would be in RL, death and pain of death are so bad, they would really deter people. But in a game, dying just leads to re-loading, so it's hardly a deterrent on the same level.

So for these reasons, developers have to get creative and simulate such rules from real life in a way that works in the context of their game. They can't just copy them over from RL as is.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
1,238
Same thing with one faction dominating. Why doesn't this happen in RL for too long? Because ultimately things like entropy and conflicting interests of individuals shatter factions and alliances. There is no reason why game mechanics could not be designed to simulate those in a game.

DAOC solved this with the supply mechanic. As one faction pushed further out, their supply lines got stretched out, so it became increasingly difficult to hold territory further out. Being a dominating faction had diminishing returns. Also, it had a three faction setup, so if one faction was dominating, the other two would naturally prioritize fighting the dominating faction.


. If the game is deep enough, it could happen organically: with a deep player run politics system, you would likely see betrayals, backstabs, and factions splintering on their own.

A lot of this is already implemented on Minecraft servers. You run into the problem where pivotal stuff goes down while you are offline, ie a coup or a capital siege. You can have been a player who was doing everything right but you get screwed over and lose your property ownership and your status and the faction you were building up all due to things that were outside of your control. You also see this happen in EVE, though there is some mitigation there because players can schedule when their bases become vulnerable to attack, so your faction isn't destroyed because you were asleep or working. Space Cowboy Online/Air Rivals/ACE Online also allowed the player elected nation leaders to schedule when the wars happened (usually on the weekends at primetime).
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
What a weird ass discussion. Retail WoW's player driven economy did atrophy in recent years as professions grew less useful over time. It is one of the things Dragonflight want to fix in the first place. Last I played FFXIV did have a strong-ish crafting economy partly driven by cosmetics and player housing but also by the fact that since everyone can play every class they can also buy gear for roles they don't play all that much.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
. If the game is deep enough, it could happen organically: with a deep player run politics system, you would likely see betrayals, backstabs, and factions splintering on their own.

A lot of this is already implemented on Minecraft servers. You run into the problem where pivotal stuff goes down while you are offline, ie a coup or a capital siege. You can have been a player who was doing everything right but you get screwed over and lose your property ownership and your status and the faction you were building up all due to things that were outside of your control. You also see this happen in EVE, though there is some mitigation there because players can schedule when their bases become vulnerable to attack, so your faction isn't destroyed because you were asleep or working. Space Cowboy Online/Air Rivals/ACE Online also allowed the player elected nation leaders to schedule when the wars happened (usually on the weekends at primetime).
Something else is that you don't always need a super deep game or systems of land ownership and war and such things. On Tibia everyone wanted to kill monsters to level up. But there are only so many good places to hunt and players can also kill each other or physically block each other's movement. The result was that players formed gang, with older more stable servers weaving a political order between guilds. But this can only happen when you have high stakes pvp which is not everyone's cup of tea.
 

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
Patron
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
5,931
Location
The land of ice and snow.
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Event chain going on right now involves a flat, comedic shot of the back legs of an elderly (German?!?) man in short lederhosen.

At least you get a reindeer out of it... :lol:
 

Garyxeao88

Novice
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
17
WoW appears to offer more competent gameplay. However, FFXIV offers more flexibility thanks to the Armoury System, where one can change the class of their characters through the weapons they wield.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom