Fallout 76 - online Fallout spinoff from Bethesda - now on Steam with Wastelanders NPC expansion

[Doktor Best]

That Fallout 4 massively outsells Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire, because 1) It appeals to a different target, and 2) It is actually well received.

Metacritic userscore Fallout 4: 5.5
Metacritic userscore POE 2: 7.8


Wtf are you on about?

 

[Okagron]

Exploration in New Vegas was fine to me, it had its fair share of interesting locations and stuff. But not gonna say that is one of the game's greatest strengths. But i'll take fine exploration and good writing and rpgs elements over good exploration and trash tier writing and rpg elements.

 

[Sigourn]

Metacritic userscore Fallout 4: 5.5
Metacritic userscore POE 2: 7.8

Wtf are you on about?

Look at the sales, but, most importantly, what caused Fallout 4 to be bombed by negative user reviews. Most of them either have to do with the game not being an RPG, or Creation Club. And yet, you can bet the next numbered Fallout game will sell even better, because these are the same people who rate "Not recommended" and have over 250 hours on Steam.

 

[Doktor Best]

How do Bethesda games have superior exploration?

You run through a tube, kill copypasted levelscaled enemies, loot levelscaled shit endlessly and once in a while you come across some tiny, underdesigned settlement with a superretarded premise, inhabitated with people who have nothing to say that makes any sense. Quests are simple fetch quests 99% of the time. There is no narrative guidance to your questgoal. People tell you to fetch their atomic megadildo, somewhere, and bling you get a questmarker leading you right there. There is no gameplay in all of that, because the game does not make the player engage with the world, neither mechanically, nor navigationally, nor narratively.

This is not exploration, Bethesda games take you for a walk.

Yes, there are some parts that suck less, but you have to endure so much in order to find these that they become the famous chocolate sprinkling on the turd.

So what exactly is it, that you guys find and uncover in those games, that creates so much joy and excitement in you?

 

[Mech]

If you actually played Fallout 4 and paid attention, almost every location has something unique to find. Whether or not you give a shit about that content is up to you, (journal/computer entries, quest start points, unique loot, hints to hidden/secret areas, etc) but acting like none of that exists just shows your ignorance.

 

[Sigourn]

How do Bethesda games have superior exploration?

Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 are built around exploration. New Vegas has exploration as an afterthought. They have superior exploration by virtue of capitalizing on it, nothing more, nothing less. We are not saying they have "good" exploration. We are saying Bethesda at least bothered to give the player a world to explore, whereas Obsidian gave the player a world to understand. Which isn't to say you can't make both at once (case in point, Gothic).

I'd also say Bethesda exploration isn't anywhere near as bad as mods like A World of Pain, which are truly awful.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

And this is where New Vegas failed, as you meet most worthwile locations over the course of the main quest. Even the Brotherhood of Steel quests take you straight to the different Vaults, map marker™ included.

- Most locations are extremely barebones. Tons of empty shacks, houses, and more, with nothing inside of them. The very definition of "copy-paste".

Here's the thing: why does everyone say Bethesda's games have great exploration? It's kind of counterintuitive. Because you're rarely finding content, right? It's lots of scenery and lots of monsters and that's it. In fact, that's the point. That's what people love. My guess is that the guys at Obsidian are more like me and feel let down every time they come across another new location with no content attached to it.

Bethesda's games are full of little points of interest that maybe look cool and maybe have something to kill. This is actually what I hate about them the most. From my perspective, there's nothing there. Finding a little bunker with some skeletons and maybe a journal entry and some meds, is that it? Apparently people love this shit. I could not give less of a fuck.

But I guess the key here is that this stuff is all totally disconnected from the rest of the world. I think that's a flaw; the people who love these games think it's a virtue. These games are packed with bite sized content and they spoon-feed it to you. So if you do enjoy this stuff, they're always giving you another hit.

To most people, it feels like they've handcrafted this world to put lots of cool stuff everywhere. But there is nothing about this that's cool and nearly every time I discover a point of interest in a Bethesda game it's a huge disappointment. Like, there should be something here that I can interact with. Why isn't there anything here except landscape design?

So when you say New Vegas has lousy exploration, what I hear is that it lacks this shit. The fucking quest compass doesn't get my hopes up and then dash them. Much of the stuff you can find while exploring actually has content attached to it, which is why they ultimately tie it into the end of the main quest. They don't want you to miss it. But they aren't spoon-feeding you fluff. If that's bad exploration, I'll take it. When you explore in New Vegas, you eventually find more story. It may take more than two minutes to come across the next piece of content, but it's there.

 

[Mech]

Because you're rarely finding content, right?

Hilariously wrong.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Because you're rarely finding content, right?

Hilariously wrong.

Depends on your definition of content.

If you actually played Fallout 4 and paid attention, almost every location has something unique to find. Whether or not you give a shit about that content is up to you, (journal/computer entries, quest start points, unique loot, hints to hidden/secret areas, etc) but acting like none of that exists just shows your ignorance.

This is scenery.

 

[Mech]

Because you're rarely finding content, right?

Hilariously wrong.

Depends on your definition of content.

If you actually played Fallout 4 and paid attention, almost every location has something unique to find. Whether or not you give a shit about that content is up to you, (journal/computer entries, quest start points, unique loot, hints to hidden/secret areas, etc) but acting like none of that exists just shows your ignorance.

This is scenery.

Apparently quests are scenery.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Sigourn]

Here's the thing: why does everyone say Bethesda's games have great exploration?

It's important to know who you are arguing with. I don't think Bethesda games have great exploration. But I do believe they offer more and better exploration than New Vegas does, no doubt about it. With Fallout 3, I remember constantly going around looking for things. Not so in New Vegas.

So when you say New Vegas has lousy exploration, what I hear is that it lacks this shit.

Not really. When I say Bethesda games have better exploration I mean to say they have more things to explore. When I say Gothic has better exploration than these two games combined, what I'm saying is that exploration works perfectly in all its dimensions: content, loot, and it all makes sense in the setting.

The issue with New Vegas, and you yourself acknowledge it

Much of the stuff you can find while exploring actually has content attached to it, which is why they ultimately tie it into the end of the main quest. They don't want you to miss it.

is that exploration is meaningless, since everything of value to be found IS spoonfed to you through the main quest. Bethesda uses map markers. Obsidian uses the main quest as the main platform through which you discover content. And at the end of the day, that means I really have no need to go out of my way to find this stuff: Obsidian has decided I must not miss anything, so everything of note can be found just by following the main quest. Especially because, unlike Gothic or Morrowind, New Vegas doesn't exactly reward you with useful loot in unsuspecting locations. There's no Daedric gear waiting for you in New Vegas.

Once again, given three choices:

- New Vegas exploration.
- Bethesda exploration.
- Gothic exploration.

I would go for Gothic first, Bethesda second, and New Vegas third. Talking about exploration only, because taken as full games the obvious answer is Gothic first, New Vegas second, Bethesda games a distant third. You said it yourself: Bethesda "exploration" is crap, meaning it takes a special kind of person to play Fallout 3 or Fallout 4 JUST for the exploration.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Because you're rarely finding content, right? It's lots of scenery and lots of monsters and that's it. In fact, that's the point.

what do you mean by content?
if quest-like: clearly you cant scale with a number and density of locations
if items: you have single hero, very limited inventory, obviously even if every location had unique item - most would be disposable garbage for you - hence wasted effort
so what remains, is understanding of the world through journals, living conditions etc.

I guess first question is what YOU expect from exploration in first place.

I suppose my point, which may have been lost, is that to the extent this stuff content, it’s self-contained modular content. Each piece stands alone, at least for the most part. You could randomly shuffle all the points of interest around in 3 or 4 (outside of downtown Boston and the capitol in DC) and nothing of value would be lost. I’m not saying every point of interest should have a quest, but it would be nice if most points of interest had a connection to something outside of themselves or the meaningless radiant quests that sent you there.

 

[Loostreaks]

Here's the thing: why does everyone say Bethesda's games have great exploration? It's kind of counterintuitive. Because you're rarely finding content, right? It's lots of scenery and lots of monsters and that's it. In fact, that's the point. That's what people love. My guess is that the guys at Obsidian are more like me and feel let down every time they come across another new location with no content attached to it.

Bethesda's games are full of little points of interest that maybe look cool and maybe have something to kill. This is actually what I hate about them the most. From my perspective, there's nothing there. Finding a little bunker with some skeletons and maybe a journal entry and some meds, is that it? Apparently people love this shit. I could not give less of a fuck.

But I guess the key here is that this stuff is all totally disconnected from the rest of the world. I think that's a flaw; the people who love these games think it's a virtue. These games are packed with bite sized content and they spoon-feed it to you. So if you do enjoy this stuff, they're always giving you another hit.

To most people, it feels like they've handcrafted this world to put lots of cool stuff everywhere. But there is nothing about this that's cool and nearly every time I discover a point of interest in a Bethesda game it's a huge disappointment. Like, there should be something here that I can interact with. Why isn't there anything here except landscape design?

So when you say New Vegas has lousy exploration, what I hear is that it lacks this shit. The fucking quest compass doesn't get my hopes up and then dash them. Much of the stuff you can find while exploring actually has content attached to it, which is why they ultimately tie it into the end of the main quest. They don't want you to miss it. But they aren't spoon-feeding you fluff. If that's bad exploration, I'll take it. When you explore in New Vegas, you eventually find more story. It may take more than two minutes to come across the next piece of content, but it's there.

There are couple of things they do well. Audio and visual cues/follow ups on different points that make exploration more addictive ( without most players even noticing this). They also have a good amount of bandit "banter" and AI is fairly interactive...superficial, yes, but makes encounters a bit more "memorable". And they make one of better examples of "potato land", in how they spread content/encounters/locations from one another so it does not feel not too empty or too "busy" ( Far Cry games). In a nutshell: amusement park.
That's why Nuka World is their best release of their cored design: it already IS an amusement park.
What they need to work on is actual worldbuilding content ( tied to history and events in the world), encounter design and unique boss fights ( Skyrim's main story boss is simply recycled version of dozens you already faced), and make exploration feel worthwhile when it comes to systems/char progression ( this is what overhauls like Requiem primarily do well).

 

[Squid]

Look at the sales, but, most importantly, what caused Fallout 4 to be bombed by negative user reviews. Most of them either have to do with the game not being an RPG, or Creation Club. And yet, you can bet the next numbered Fallout game will sell even better, because these are the same people who rate "Not recommended" and have over 250 hours on Steam.

Exactly. Also, big names are usually chasing more money than good reviews to build their name. Why do you think EA and others are focusing so much on these new live services? They bring in more money. Why care that your work is a 7/10 compared to a 10/10 when your 7 makes you millions throughout the year and the 10/10 has a better on release spike?

The larger companies don't want games that will be classics, they want games that won't "leave money on the table." Which essentially means, if you could make more money off the game, why aren't you doing that?

 

[PanteraNera]

That's why Nuka World is their best release

Not only that, while the beginning of Nuka World was kind of exciting it soon started to feel shallow, not fleshed out, lack of choices (and consequences) and the usual Bethesda logical fuck ups (not to mention all the lore fuck ups).

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Especially because, unlike Gothic or Morrowind, New Vegas doesn't exactly reward you with useful loot in unsuspecting locations. There's no Daedric gear waiting for you in New Vegas.

off the top of my head, unique loot in unsuspecting locations:

Spoiler

Gobi Rifle
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Sniper's_nest

Paladin Toaster
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Rock_cave

Chopper
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Wolfhorn_Ranch

CZ57 Avenger
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Devil's_Throat

Tesla-Beaton Prototype
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Crashed_vertibird

Love and Hate
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bonnie_Springs

and of course the alien blaster/gauss rifle

This is just the stuff in the base game where I'm pretty sure there is no quest whatsoever guiding you there that I can remember the names of off the top of my head.

I do agree with you that Gothic has the best model. Exploration beyond set parameters should be severely punished at lower levels. But I feel like New Vegas is much closer to the Gothic model than the Bethesda model.

 

[Citizen]

For Cael's eyes only

No. Just no. Why the hell would tanks have animal features like that, and most especially why the worst of humanity's physical build? The human bipedal structure is absolute shit for support and damage resistance, and a tank doesn't have to be restricted by the vertebrate 4 limb structure that evolution seem to have forced on our ancestors.

 

[Turjan]

That's why Nuka World is their best release

Not only that, while the beginning of Nuka World was kind of exciting it soon started to feel shallow, not fleshed out, lack of choices (and consequences) and the usual Bethesda logical fuck ups (not to mention all the lore fuck ups).

You make it sound as if pissing off Preston Garvey was a bad thing.

But yeah, the execution is rather shallow, as usual. The best of Nuka World is the theme park when you first go to the locations.

 

[Sigourn]

Especially because, unlike Gothic or Morrowind, New Vegas doesn't exactly reward you with useful loot in unsuspecting locations. There's no Daedric gear waiting for you in New Vegas.

off the top of my head, unique loot in unsuspecting locations:

Spoiler

Gobi Rifle
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Sniper's_nest

Paladin Toaster
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Rock_cave

Chopper
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Wolfhorn_Ranch

CZ57 Avenger
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Devil's_Throat

Tesla-Beaton Prototype
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Crashed_vertibird

Love and Hate
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bonnie_Springs

and of course the alien blaster/gauss rifle

This is just the stuff in the base game where I'm pretty sure there is no quest whatsoever guiding you there that I can remember the names of off the top of my head.

All of that is good when taken at face value. But, for instance, my latest character had no use for any of those weapons. And I do mean "any", as I only used handguns and shotguns. So that's, what, six locations that are suddenly devoid of content because my build didn't have an use for those? It's really underwhelming. I'd much prefer a story that anyone could enjoy (do not mistake Bethesda's "environmental storytelling", a.k.a. skeletons and teddy bears, for stories).

By comparison, Fallout and Fallout 2 give you really awesome locations in which to find equipment, meaning whether that equipment is useful or not, you've already experienced lots of content that will stick with you. I'd much prefer if New Vegas hid its unique weapons in creative places, all of them in existing, important locations. This adds the possibility of making these things actual, living equipment, as opposed to "loot" that exists anywhere for no real reason.

A good example of what I mean is already in New Vegas: Pew Pew & Allen Marks.

 

[PanteraNera]

You make it sound as if pissing off Preston Garvey was a bad thing.

It is not a bad thing.
The bad thing is: you do not really piss him off (and be able to kill him). Bethesda give you two options, ignore him, or do the right thing and kill all the Nuka Raiders.
Also it shows how poorly it is connected with the main-game.

The best of Nuka World is the theme park when you first go to the locations.

I think after visiting this "magician ghoul" (the first location I visited) and finding that whole location just stupid, boring and badly written, not entertaining I read up on the wiki to see what the other locations had to offer (Gator Claws?!). I than quit Nuka World and never looked back. No wrong, it was the point were I uninstalled F4.

To be honest, the intro, the first dialogues and interaction with the Raider Leaders, the premise got me slightly excited, at that point I was 10-15 hours in the "main game" and wanted to uninstall it, so I gave Nuka World a try).

There are good parts in F4, but not many, or enough to make it for me a decent or even enjoyable game.

 

[Turjan]

The best of Nuka World is the theme park when you first go to the locations.

I think after visiting this "magician ghoul" (the first location I visited) and finding that whole location just stupid, boring and badly written, not entertaining I read up on the wiki to see what the other locations had to offer (Gator Claws?!). I than quit Nuka World and never looked back. No wrong, it was the point were I uninstalled F4.

To be honest, the intro, the first dialogues and interaction with the Raider Leaders, the premise got me slightly excited, at that point I was 10-15 hours in the "main game" and wanted to uninstall it, so I gave Nuka World a try).

There are good parts in F4, but not many, or enough to make it for me a decent or even enjoyable game.

I think the best part by far was the Galactic Zone. Everything else falls beihind in comparison. Kiddie Kingdom was the most annoying one, yes.

 

[DalekFlay]

Man, didn't mean to start two full pages of discussion. I think when people say Bethesda are good at exploration they mean visual design, places interesting to wander in. I get why hand-placed loot is often considered better than random loot (though there is something to be said for surprise and chance, which I never experience in Morrowind anymore for example). I totally understand that Fallout 4 is not a believable world, nor do I think it was in any way intended to be. Some will focus on this just like some focused on the "stupid humor" in Fallout 2 back in the day. Then you have people in this thread mad at Fallout 4 for being a good shooter while ALSO being mad it's not RPG enough... like, mixed messages much?

All I am saying is they create open worlds millions of people enjoy walking around in, whether YOU do or not. It's that fact that keeps them at the top of the sales charts every other year or whatever, not their deep RPG systems or singleplayer focus or modding tools. They know this, that's why they couldn't give two fucks what people on here say.

The reason a lot of people disliked New Vegas exploration and a lot of people loved Fallout 3 exploration is because New Vegas was a fucking empty desert. Fallout was like this. Fallout 2 was like this. New Vegas is like this, because it was clearly designed to be an isometric Fallout game, to the point you could completely remake the game in the classic engine and nothing of value would be lost.

This is so true and I actually made a thread about it forever ago. No one would ever make that mod of course, but I wrote about how easily New Vegas would fit into the Fallout 1/2 engine and formula. I really believe it was designed to feel that way, rather than like an open world. Even the smaller useless locations like the toxic waste dump or the sinking cabins feel like random encounters you'd have on the world map.

 

[PanteraNera]

Some will focus on this just like some focused on the "stupid humor" in Fallout 2 back in the day.

All I am saying is they create open worlds millions of people enjoy walking around in, whether YOU do or not.

All I am saying is million flies can't be wrong.

I say shit is shit, no matter how many "feast" on it

 

[DalekFlay]

I say shit is shit, no matter how many "feast" on it

And Avatar ain't the best movie ever made either, I agree. I know it's the pretty CGI and 3D that made it a hit though, and it's the open world exploration that makes Bethesda games industry leaders. Is what it is.