Fallout Fallout 4 Thread

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, that whole thing where you can only save if you find a bed to sleep in turned me off survival.
Such a mechanic doesn't work too well in a game with such a huge world full of long stretches of nothing and instant-kill enemies.
You might as well just have perma-death with a single save file.

 

[Wayward Son]

Yeah, that whole you can only save if you find a bed to sleep in turned me off survival.
Such a mechanic doesn't work too well in a game with such a huge world full of long stretches of nothing and instant-kill enemies.
You might as well just have perma-death with a single save file.

It’s not just that, but the game isn’t really designed around it. If there was a crafted consumable to save or more availability of sleeping spaces it wouldn’t be as bad.
Edit: I really like survival otherwise. With the ability to save it feels like the most proper way to play the game.

 

[Sigourn]

I originally played with Unlimited Survival, but then decided to go for the bed system.
Honestly it's not as hard as one would expect, as you can find beds very often. But it's very easy to die out of nothing, i.e. you are handling your own very well until a random mini-nuke/molotov cocktail hits your face, or you accidentally step near a mine.

 

[thesecret1]

Alright, I gave this piece of shit a solid chance. I forced myself to play as long as I could and reached around 50 hours, using Horizon overhaul (ended up with that after a lot of trial and error with other things. It's far from the best when it comes to combat, but all the other shit it does makes it worth it, imo). Dropping the playthrough now due to being bored out of my skull.
Pros:
- Bethesda finally learned how to level design. Most dungeons had non-linear layout and were fun to navigate
- guns feel better than in their other games
- overworld is filled with content. Maybe too densely, even, especially in the wilderness, but the cities feel great, it's a true warzone
- crafting system is the best of any of their games (changing it to work on base components rather than asking for specific items was the right idea)
- the new power armor system is pretty cool
- some quests have cool structure with multiple outcomes

Cons:
- the removal of skills is decline of enormous proportions (Horizon re-adds them and is worth installing for that alone)
- world building is demented. The entire commonwealth looks like nobody had set foot in there for 200 years and everyone only arrived half a year back and barely had the time to unpack.
- Beth evidently gives zero shit about lore, and frequently contradicts itself. Nothing like hearing a farmer complain about his potatoes not growing, only to later read a terminal stating potatoes have long since gone extinct. There's bucketloads of shit like this, it's like the game had a dozen writers that didn't coordinate whatsoever and had a free hand to make shit up
- all writing in the game is retarded. All of it. Spend 10 seconds thinking about what that NPC told you and you'll find a plothole or other retardation. Nothing ever makes sense, which is a major reason for why quests suck dick. They're all terrible garbage. The better ones send you somewhere that's fun to explore, at least, but none are interesting or fun by their own merits. Which is sad because mechanically, many of them are sound – it's just that they're written by people who seem unable to hold a coherent thought, so it all comes off as "stupid people do stupid things and pay you to be their errand boy".
- factions may as well not exist, they've been gutted so hard it's difficult to even call them that
- the number of settlements (as in actual settlements, not the garbage you build yourself) is tiny, and they contain few NPCs with few quests or dialogue. This isn't a game where you're gonna chat up the NPCs, learn something in town, or do fun quests. This is a game where a gang of 50 sadistic raiders brutally opresses a "settlement" of two people, who ask you to genocide them, and never talk to you afterwards.
- the settlement building is absolute cancer. It doesn't matter how much you mod it – Sim Settlements, Architect, etc. it all merely mitigates the damage. If you choose to engage with this feature at all, you will be rewarded with extreme tedium for no real reward. I built up one (ONE!) settlement, and the prospect of having to do it again (let alone like 20 times, or however many of these spots there are in the game) made me wanna kill myself

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob. As far as gameplay loop goes, it probably has more in common with Borderlands than with other Fallouts (save perhaps Fallout 3, that one was similarly dogshit, but didn't go as far with the retardification as this one did).

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob. As far as gameplay loop goes, it probably has more in common with Borderlands than with other Fallouts (save perhaps Fallout 3, that one was similarly dogshit, but didn't go as far with the retardification as this one did).

And yet somehow Beth made 76 even worse, and made a point to expound on the dogshittiest elements of 4.

 

[thesecret1]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob. As far as gameplay loop goes, it probably has more in common with Borderlands than with other Fallouts (save perhaps Fallout 3, that one was similarly dogshit, but didn't go as far with the retardification as this one did).

And yet somehow Beth made 76 even worse, and made a point to expound on the dogshittiest elements of 4.

I thought they outsourced 76 to some random studio?

 

[Late Bloomer]

I thought they outsourced 76 to some random studio?

It was a combined effort from all of the worst parts of their studios.

 

[Late Bloomer]

This mod sounds interesting. Might be a while before I can take it for a spin. If anyone is interested, here it is.

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/72923

Real.AI recalibrates hundreds of engine level subroutines to make Fallout 4's NPCs behave more organically by removing a lot of the limitations left over from the console port. Experience Fallout 4's AI at its full potential.

 

[Silverfish]

Bethesda finally learned how to level design. Most dungeons had non-linear layout and were fun to navigate

This was easily the most pleasant surprise in 4. For whatever else I may say about Beth, the Corvega plant is one of the best combat arenas I've seen in any game.

all writing in the game is retarded. All of it. Spend 10 seconds thinking about what that NPC told you and you'll find a plothole or other retardation. Nothing ever makes sense, which is a major reason for why quests suck dick.

The secret to Fallout 4's longevity is replaying every now and then to find stupid shit you missed previously. I maintain that Fallout 3 remains the Plan 9 of gaming, but 4 isn't far behind.

 

[Robotigan]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob

The next time someone tries to pretend there's any real distinction between these two, I am going to gut them with a spoon. Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya. Without it, most of these games would be visual novels and walking sims. But CHA players play games exactly like that and--unfortunately for the rest of us--because they love to talk so much, they tend to monopolize all discussion of these games.

 

[thesecret1]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob

The next time someone tries to pretend there's any real distinction between these two, I am going to gut them with a spoon. Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya. Without it, most of these games would be visual novels and walking sims. But then a bunch of CHA players who played games exactly like that started acting like they owned the place.

The distinction is that an RPG has more to it than just looting and shooting, a looter shooter does not. There is a pretty big difference between Borderlands and PS:T

 

[Robotigan]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob

The next time someone tries to pretend there's any real distinction between these two, I am going to gut them with a spoon. Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya. Without it, most of these games would be visual novels and walking sims. But then a bunch of CHA players who played games exactly like that started acting like they owned the place.

The distinction is that an RPG has more to it than just looting and shooting, a looter shooter does not. There is a pretty big difference between Borderlands and PS:T

PS:T has a uniquely dialogue heavy focus. You know what else it has? Looting and combat.

 

[thesecret1]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob

The next time someone tries to pretend there's any real distinction between these two, I am going to gut them with a spoon. Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya. Without it, most of these games would be visual novels and walking sims. But then a bunch of CHA players who played games exactly like that started acting like they owned the place.

The distinction is that an RPG has more to it than just looting and shooting, a looter shooter does not. There is a pretty big difference between Borderlands and PS:T

PS:T has a uniquely dialogue heavy focus. You know what else it has? Looting and combat.

Yeah. That's what I've just said, dude.

 

[Wayward Son]

I originally played with Unlimited Survival, but then decided to go for the bed system.
Honestly it's not as hard as one would expect, as you can find beds very often. But it's very easy to die out of nothing, i.e. you are handling your own very well until a random mini-nuke/molotov cocktail hits your face, or you accidentally step near a mine.

Yeah but that’s just frustrating and very time wasting especially when you consider that even basic bitch raiders can one tap you in early fallout 4 on survival

 

[Dwarvophile]

Anyone tried the Welcopme to Paradise modlist ? I'm looking for a lightweight list that improves aspects of the game without adding much to the original content. Was also thinking about Frost but it might be too survivalish for me, depends of the atmosphere.

Idk about Welcome to Paradise, but FROST is definitely harder core survival (there’s a main plot line but you get no actual quests for it and the main gameplay is being able to move farther and farther out while still surviving) and it’s also not lightweight at all, requiring like five ESPs to function at a basic level and making the overworld run slower. It’s a lot of fun but not what you’re looking for rn.

After checking both modlists size, I saw FROST was weighting only half WtP's size and since I have a very bad internet connection atm I opted for it despite my initial aversion for the survival stuff.

It's true that it's quite hardcore but mostly, lot's of fun. Atmosphere is incredible. It doesn't try to add too much and everything is very well done.

First 2 hours were super frustrating though. Had to start over a few times. Oddly its my fourth char, a total imbecile with 2 int and the idiot savant perk that survived the longest. He's level 6 now, but hum, he's now completely irradiated with an infection and insomnia on top, I don't think he will survive another day lol

Yeahhh one of the mods I recommend for FROST is Unlimited Survival to allow you to save without a bed. I know it kinda lowers the hardcoreness but it makes it a lot less frustrating.

It's already part of the Stay Frosty modlist and I activated it with my last character. Only reason why he survived a few levels really.

I really like the atmosphere in Frost, but I do miss the chaotic combats in the more crowded original.

 

[Robotigan]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob

The next time someone tries to pretend there's any real distinction between these two, I am going to gut them with a spoon. Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya. Without it, most of these games would be visual novels and walking sims. But then a bunch of CHA players who played games exactly like that started acting like they owned the place.

The distinction is that an RPG has more to it than just looting and shooting, a looter shooter does not. There is a pretty big difference between Borderlands and PS:T

PS:T has a uniquely dialogue heavy focus. You know what else it has? Looting and combat.

Yeah. That's what I've just said, dude.

The point I'm getting at is this isn't new territory for RPGs, it's only a change within the Fallout franchise specifically. Bethesda has never done many branching questlines, in fact FO4 is the closest they've gotten. If this stuff is intrinsic to RPGs, you'd have to throw out a lot of games including Bethesda's entire catalog.

No one hates Fallout 4 for the same reasons. What Bethesda fans, new and old school alike, hate about it are mostly the voiced protagonist and preset character background. These are incredibly common in branching narrative RPGs. To use your example, even something like PS:T--while intentional playing on classic tropes--is still rather heavy-handed relative to Bethesda's usual affair. So this is clearly not the core problem for these types of RPG fans. They dislike it for the same reasons they've always disliked Bethesda's titles. Fallout 4 tried to straddle the line and it didn't pay off.

What convinces me that Fallout fans aren't acting in good faith is that they're very clearly coopting whatever criticisms they can get their hands on even if they're coming from disparate groups who want contradictory things. They're not actually trying to construct what an alternative game might look like because otherwise this strategy of incorporating every possible critique is incoherent.

This is basically just politics (in gaming). Attack your opponent from every possible angle to destroy their reputation. Then use that as leverage to elevate your own candidate. Now luckily, the New Vegas leads themselves don't see it this way. Because usually what follows a populist uprising installing their ideologue into power over the old, technocratic administration isn't very good.

 

[Sigourn]

Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya.

Just because RPGs have combat doesn't mean Fallout 4's combat is suitable to an RPG. Your stats may as well not be there.

 

[thesecret1]

The game's a looter shooter with a thin RPG paintjob

The next time someone tries to pretend there's any real distinction between these two, I am going to gut them with a spoon. Looting and shooting/stabbing has always been the genre's bread and butter from table top to vidya. Without it, most of these games would be visual novels and walking sims. But then a bunch of CHA players who played games exactly like that started acting like they owned the place.

The distinction is that an RPG has more to it than just looting and shooting, a looter shooter does not. There is a pretty big difference between Borderlands and PS:T

PS:T has a uniquely dialogue heavy focus. You know what else it has? Looting and combat.

Yeah. That's what I've just said, dude.

The point I'm getting at is this isn't new territory for RPGs, it's only a change within the Fallout franchise specifically. Bethesda has never done many branching questlines, in fact FO4 is the closest they've gotten. If this stuff is intrinsic to RPGs, you'd have to throw out a lot of games including Bethesda's entire catalog.

No one hates Fallout 4 for the same reasons. What Bethesda fans, new and old school alike, hate about it are mostly the voiced protagonist and preset character background. These are incredibly common in branching narrative RPGs. To use your example, even something like PS:T--while intentional playing on classic tropes--is still rather heavy-handed relative to Bethesda's usual affair. So this is clearly not the core problem for these types of RPG fans. They dislike it for the same reasons they've always disliked Bethesda's titles. Fallout 4 tried to straddle the line and it didn't pay off.

Dude, what? Who gives a shit about the voiced protag or his background? The problem is that looting and shooting is the only thing it has to offer! Quests are shit because the writing is shit, 95% of the map is just "Go there and shoot shit up, lmao", there's almost no dialogues (and the ones that are there are shit), and even character development got dumbed down with the cutting of skills! Bethesda's catalog is full of games with shitloads of NPCs to chat up (think of Morrowind, for heaven's sake!), shitload of quests that are sometimes even pretty fun, factions and world building to get immersed in, and of course character development.

What convinces me that Fallout fans aren't acting in good faith is that they're very clearly coopting whatever criticisms they can get their hands on even if they're coming from disparate groups who want contradictory things. They're not actually trying to construct what an alternative game might look like because otherwise this strategy of incorporating every possible critique is incoherent.

This is basically just politics (in gaming). Attack your opponent from every possible angle to destroy their reputation. Then use that as leverage to elevate your own candidate. Now luckily, the New Vegas leads themselves don't see it this way. Because usually what follows a populist uprising installing their ideologue into power over the old, technocratic administration isn't very good.

Are you retarded? What "my own candidate"? You think I have a dude in Bethesda that's primed and ready to take charge right after Todd commits seppuku because people shat on Fallout 4? What populist uprising – interns eating Pete Hines alive and appointing Chris Avellone as the God-Emperor of Bethesda? What the hell am I even reading? Take your pills, schizo.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I think the analogy got a little confusing with the last bit about Sawyer making the next Elder Scrolls announcement wearing Todd's torn leather jacket over his shoulders like a wolf pelt, but he means people will handwave faults in the games they like and magnify faults in the games they don't like.

 

[Robotigan]

Dude, what? Who gives a shit about the voiced protag or his background?

Most players. Why do you think they immediately pivoted back to silent protags for 76 and Starfield?

Quests are shit because the writing is shit, 95% of the map is just "Go there and shoot shit up, lmao", there's almost no dialogues (and the ones that are there are shit), and even character development got dumbed down with the cutting of skills! Bethesda's catalog is full of games with shitloads of NPCs to chat up (think of Morrowind, for heaven's sake!), shitload of quests that are sometimes even pretty fun, factions and world building to get immersed in, and of course character development.

You are vastly overstating Morrowind's writing. The character writing and prose in Morrowind is exactly what you'd expect for a video game from 2002. Most of it isn't even dialogue, it's the lore codex dropped into the dialogue menus. Cool idea, but clearly not the same thing as real dialogue. What's you're really talking about is the setting and premise. Yes, I agree those are really intriguing.

Are you retarded? What "my own candidate"? You think I have a dude in Bethesda that's primed and ready to take charge right after Todd commits seppuku because people shat on Fallout 4? What populist uprising – interns eating Pete Hines alive and appointing Chris Avellone as the God-Emperor of Bethesda? What the hell am I even reading? Take your pills, schizo.

It's an analogy.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Bethesda games have never had good writing. Writing for them is an excuse to implement gameplay. In a way, they follow the id Software school of game design. Morrowind does not have good writing, just cool concepts and visuals. That's it. There's a divide between "things you enjoy" and "things that are good".

 

[Sigourn]

Morrowind didn't have good writing but Fallout 4's is just plain RETARDED.
All dialogue is lackluster or blatantly unfunny. The game tries so hard to present dialogue as "funny" or "thoughtful" but it fails on all accounts.

 

[Silverfish]

Just because RPGs have combat doesn't mean Fallout 4's combat is suitable to an RPG. Your stats may as well not be there.

Funny enough, ignoring specialization and balancing stats (4 points in everything) leads to one of the best builds in the game. You get most of the crafting perks, both lockpicking and hacking, loot-based stuff like more ammo or more money, your choice of the ranged weapon perks, even melee is viable despite low strength, since power armor frames boost that anyway.

 

[Hirato]

Honestly, getting rid of skills and turning it into a 100% perk based affair was the smartest thing Bethesda did in Fallout 4.
Problem is: they do nothing interesting with it, and the bulk of the perks are just pointless things like bumping damage and stagger chance.

What they should've done was locked most of the gameplay systems down and add heavy restrictions the perks remove, and eventually elevate into godly territory.
Imagine if your character was too clueless to even use iron sights (or a scope) without a Perception perk.
Or if they were too clumsy to reload while running/sprinting without an Agility perk.
The basic idea being that every perk should expand your arsenal of available tactical options.

They're not good examples, but they're significantly more meaningful to character building than "+15% chance to hit in VATS".

 

[Gargaune]

Honestly, getting rid of skills and turning it into a 100% perk based affair was the smartest thing Bethesda did in Fallout 4.

When you consider the substance behind the naming conventions, they didn't even do that, really, it's the same sort of consolidation Deus Ex 4 did - passive skills and active feats or perks got rebranded under the same name, pulling from the same progression resource, but they still exist. Rifleman or Lockpicking are skills that passively affect your basic performance (even if they have fewer, larger thresholds), whereas stuff like Awareness or Mysterious Stranger unlock new options and behaviours.

It's a simplified system, yes, and it's not particularly exciting or well balanced (or leveraged, for that matter), but it's not terrible either. Early to mid-game I generally found myself interested in picking something off that table and it's only late-game that it devolved into meh territory, I think it was a mistake to let people keep leveling past 50. And it could've been far, far worse, as Cyberpunk showed us - consider the difference between "+20% damage with rifles" or "+15% change to hit in VATS" and "+3.42(6)% fire damage for 6 seconds after you kill someone while standing on your head, but only if it's a Monday."