Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[Castanova]

If you invite a friend, they don't get any extra keys to give away. It's unclear how you obtain one of the "account + 2 friend invites" things. It seems like a lot of the website-based giveaways include friend invites, though.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I got in from the official "Sign up for DotA2 beta" thing, which I signed up about the very first day it was put up during that tournament or whatever. Do you mean website-based as in fan page giveaways or something?

 

[Castanova]

Yeah, like one "pro-gamer" gave a key away on his stream and it came with two invites. Maybe it's random.

 

[Castanova]

Sup, bitches! Got my official invite today... woohoo! (didn't come with friend invites)

Anyway, if anyone wants to wreak some havoc, let me know. I'm in the U.S., though, so my timezone probably sucks for lots of you.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Glad you got in since you were so excited for it. Hope you'll enjoy it, I've liked it more than I thought I would. Even though I still don't really like the concept of last hitting and denying.

 

[Castanova]

Played a few games. Played Lina in the first game and got paired up in the lane with a complete n00b who fed their carry. Poor guy was like 0-15 by the end of the game. Needless to say we lost.

Played Lich in the second game. For some reason my "skill rating" must have been pretty high relative to my team because it put me in the 2nd spot from the top. I went solo mid (for the first time ever) and the opposing solo mid was Sniper. He was pretty bad so I got fed and our team dominated. I went like 8-0-20 or something.

Last game I went Skeleton King and, despite getting raped in the lane early on, my teammates carried and I eventually geared up. We won easily. Skeleton King is like a tank-carry or something. He seems AWFUL in the early game. Slow-ass melee with crap damage?! Once I got an expensive life-steal weapon plus those gloves that buff you while draining your health, I was dominating though.

Edit: also, I enjoy the laning phase with all the last-hitting/denying. It's like a tactical mini-game that's sometimes fairly interesting. Of course it can be extremely frustrating if you're in a bad hero match-up and you can't even get close to the creeps.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Try Sand King! He was super cool when I tried him last.

 

[meh]

Played a few games. Played Lina in the first game and got paired up in the lane with a complete n00b who fed their carry. Poor guy was like 0-15 by the end of the game. Needless to say we lost.

Played Lich in the second game. For some reason my "skill rating" must have been pretty high relative to my team because it put me in the 2nd spot from the top. I went solo mid (for the first time ever) and the opposing solo mid was Sniper. He was pretty bad so I got fed and our team dominated. I went like 8-0-20 or something.

Last game I went Skeleton King and, despite getting raped in the lane early on, my teammates carried and I eventually geared up. We won easily. Skeleton King is like a tank-carry or something. He seems AWFUL in the early game. Slow-ass melee with crap damage?! Once I got an expensive life-steal weapon plus those gloves that buff you while draining your health, I was dominating though.

Edit: also, I enjoy the laning phase with all the last-hitting/denying. It's like a tactical mini-game that's sometimes fairly interesting. Of course it can be extremely frustrating if you're in a bad hero match-up and you can't even get close to the creeps.

SK paired with a strong support in f.e. Dazzle or even mentioned Lina can easily own the dual lane. Don't underestimate his stun + slow paired with other stun and/or slow. You can basically kill every hero. In addition, you can get farm, while support finishes off kills getting quick Arcane Boots for non-stop lane ownage.

 

[Castanova]

Sand King does look pretty cool.

What's the deal with that game mode with the picks/bans? Is that only available in custom games or something? Single Draft is kind of fun... it's like a less punishing way of going random.

 

[Phage]

Move this to RPG discussion please

 

[Castanova]

Jebus, Bloodseeker is such a fucking beast. In my three games tonight, I played him twice and absolutely dominated both times. In the third game, someone played him on the other team and we had no chance against him.

What's the counter to that motherfucker? Winning the lane against him or else?

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Just won my first game with Mangina in a single draft game, holy lol. Had a guy on our team (And in the same lane as me) who said it was his first game and was getting raped by juggernaut constantly. We somehow turned it around and won 2 players (The other 3 left) to 4 (1 left). Just me and windrunner turning into unstoppable rape machines with all the gold in the world. Had all sorts of crazy equipment.

 

[meh]

Jebus, Bloodseeker is such a fucking beast. In my three games tonight, I played him twice and absolutely dominated both times. In the third game, someone played him on the other team and we had no chance against him.

What's the counter to that motherfucker? Winning the lane against him or else?

Whenever he casts his ulti only you, just stand still (hit H or S) and hit him back. Or just buy a tp scroll and tp away. Have a mekansm on a team. He's shit tbh.
Also, you can outplay him in a solo lane or just lane with a stronger pair of heroes. He can shake most of the harass if he has a quelling blade and heal up by last hitting, so don't let him near creeps. F.e. disable when he comes in for a last hit, make sure he takes punishment.

^MHC:
Yep, Magina's too good.

 

[Castanova]

I'm sure BS isn't so great at higher levels but in low-rated pubs it seems like he's dominant.

Sounds like I need to pick Anti-Mage in my next game!

 

[Steve]

Jebus, Bloodseeker is such a fucking beast. In my three games tonight, I played him twice and absolutely dominated both times. In the third game, someone played him on the other team and we had no chance against him.

What's the counter to that motherfucker? Winning the lane against him or else?

Press H and laugh at him.

 

[Wulfstand]

Lookie at what I found:

http://www.playdota.com/guides/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

It seems to be one of the best dota 1/2 guides out there, made by Purge: http://en.twitch.tv/ggnetpurge

 

[Steve]

http://www.playdota.com/guides/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

Unfortunately, DotA has a massive learning curve.

Stopped reading right there.

 

[bot]

http://www.playdota.com/guides/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

Unfortunately, DotA has a massive learning curve.

Stopped reading right there.

Dota has an enormous learning curve, much higher than classical competitive RTS games. This might seem counter-intuitive at first but becomes more clear when you get closer to mastering both genres' representatives (be it DotA, HoN you name it and simlilarly Warcraft, Brood War, Starcraft2 etc.). Before you stopped-reading-right-there'd me let me emphasize that I think traditional RTS games out of those two genres are superior as a competitive medium (e-sport). This doesn't change the fact that it's orders of magnitude harder to master DOTA than an RTS. MOBAs' impressive learning curve, as you probably realize, is not the reason MOBAs aren't the ultimate genre of choice of progamers around the world. But that's completely different subject I won't touch upon at this time. MOBAs reach the peak of complexity and depth even before a match begins - both on the hero selection screen and in-match countdown-to-start phase. This is where the meta-game plays out - something that usually absent in the RTS genre). The sheer number of possible combinations of heroes, item and skill builds, lane setups etc. is astounding. It takes enormous amount of time to learn every possibility, not to mention experiene them in action. What's more, the steepness of the curve is artificially increased by inflated game time required to finish a single game - from 15 minutes to over an hour. Be aware that, unlike in SC2, player is not given the opportunity to explore multiple 'builds' per game - those are usually cemented before the game has even started. This requires a lot of 'grind'.

Here's an example. Try to imagine that you are a complete noob and count number of cases where in-game experience is required.
In MOBAs very small things decide about overall performance during the game. Your success in the lane depends, among other things, on last hitting. To successfully do that you need to know (again, among other things) your and enemies' attack animation and damage range, attack speed, attack ranges, creep pulling patterns, attack animation canceling mind-games, harassment capabilities etc. (of every hero in game - that's 104 in dota and 99 in HoN). You can improve your last hitting (and denying) skill by having extensive knowledge of game mechanics - mechanics which aren't compulsory to understand but greatly increase your effectiveness. Imagine you want to master this game element. You have the opportunity to try out only one hero per game - what's even worse, you face different enemy every time (what if you get the 2v2 lane? or 1v2 or 2v3? So many possible hero combinations and every single one plays differently). Laning phase lasts usually ten minutes. For the remaining 40 you are unable to focus on that aspect. And it's just a simple example of simple activity, one of many.

Then, there is the teamwork. Mastering teamwork and communication skills in a 5v5 setup where avatar you control is fairly complex per se means the already breakneck learning curve achieves the steepness of a raging erection.

TL;DR version:
Steepness of the learning curve comes from two factors:
1) sheer amount of data that needs to be memorized first, and then experienced in game second, preferably multiple times.
2) complexity of team-based gameplay

 

[deuxhero]

OK, anyone up for a unrated game between humans? Just finished my first few bot matches two days ago (I felt terrible yesterday, so I don't think I did much).

Any suggestions for Lina play (lanes and items)? I tried boots of speed as first purchase, then going for parts of power treads and oblivion staff, then guy/place I can't spell's specter after that. Better item suggestions? What lane should I do?

 

[Castanova]

If you like Lina, I would also try out Lion. I think Lina is slightly harder to play because Light Strike Array requires you to aim it and time it well in order to land a hit. Lion is easier to play in the early game (you can spam spells against the enemy heroes and re-fill your mana using Mana Drain off the enemy archer creeps) and his ultimate is great for ganking, just like Lina's ultimate. Plus, he can help out with early game ganks easier (Hex). Lina is better in the mid/late game for lane pushing (Dragon Slave + Fiery Soul) but Lion brings more utility to a fight against enemy heroes.

 

[Steve]

http://www.playdota.com/guides/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

Unfortunately, DotA has a massive learning curve.

Stopped reading right there.

Dota has an enormous learning curve, much higher the than classical competitive RTS games. This might seem counter-intuitive at first but becomes more clear when you get closer to mastering both genres' representatives (be it DotA, HoN you name it and simlilarly Warcraft, Brood War, Starcraft2 etc.). Before you stopped-reading-right-there'd me let me emphasize that I think traditional RTS games out of those two genres are superior as a competitive medium (e-sport). This doesn't change the fact that it's orders of magnitude harder to master DOTA than an RTS. MOBAs' impressive learning curve, as you probably realize, is not the reason MOBAs aren't the ultimate genre of choice of progamers around the world. But that's completely different subject I won't touch upon at this time. MOBAs reach the peak of complexity and depth even before a match begins - both on the hero selection screen and in-match countdown-to-start phase. This is where the meta-game plays out - something that usually absent in the RTS genre). The sheer number of possible combinations of heroes, item and skill builds, lane setups etc. is astounding. It takes enormous amount of time to learn every possibility, not to mention experiene them in action. What's more, the steepness of the curve is artificially increased by inflated game time required to finish a single game - from 15 minutes to over an hour. Be aware that, unlike in SC2, player is not given the opportunity to explore multiple 'builds' per game - those are usually cemented before the game has even started. This requires a lot of 'grind'.

Here's an example. Try to imagine that you are a complete noob and count number of cases where in-game experience is required.
In MOBAs very small things decide about overall performance during the game. Your success in the lane depends, among other things, on last hitting. To successfully do that you need to know (again, among other things) your and enemies' attack animation and damage range, attack speed, attack ranges, creep pulling patterns, attack animation canceling mind-games, harassment capabilities etc. (of every hero in game - that's 104 in dota and 99 in HoN). You can improve your last hitting (and denying) skill by having extensive knowledge of game mechanics - mechanics which aren't compulsory to understand but greatly increase your effectiveness. Imagine you want to master this game element. You have the opportunity to try out only one hero per game - what's even worse, you face different enemy every time (what if you get the 2v2 lane? or 1v2 or 2v3? So many possible hero combinations and every single one plays differently). Laning phase lasts usually ten minutes. For the remaining 40 you are unable to focus on that aspect. And it's just a simple example of simple activity, one of many.

Then, there is the teamwork. Mastering teamwork and communication skills in a 5v5 setup where avatar you control is fairly complex per se means the already breakneck learning curve achieves the steepness of a raging erection.

TL;DR version:
Steepness of the learning curve comes from two factors:
1) sheer amount of data that needs to be memorized first, and then experienced in game second, preferably multiple times.
2) complexity of team-based gameplay

You are making the game more complex than it really is(seems to be a problem with all moba players), Dota and other "moba" games are very popular because they're so easy to access and even easier to play, even my mom could play one and do good in it, memorizing a bunch of stuff and coordinating skill usage doesnt make "complex" play.

 

[bot]

You are making the game more complex than it really is(seems to be a problem with all moba players), Dota and other "moba" games are very popular because they're so easy to access and even easier to play, even my mom could play one and do good in it, memorizing a bunch of stuff and coordinating skill usage doesnt make "complex" play.

I merely stated some of the MOBA's mechanics and compared them to those of RTS genre. If you feel intimidated by the number of words I used feel free to stick to the TL;DR at the bottom of the post. I stand by everything I wrote. Ease of getting into the game has nothing to do with the steepness of the learning curve. What's more, this implied easiness does not come from the lack of complexity. In my opinion it comes from the fact that it's a team based game (diluted responsibility) - it gives a newb an opportunity to be carried to victory by others. That's an attractive perspective given RTS' emphasis on 1v1. There's a tremendous difference between an entry-level player and a pro but unlike in other genres this gap is assured by in-game trivia that needs to be learnt. Entrant might be an RTS veteran/progamer yet without the vast knowledge of the game mechanics he stands no chance and can be as rage-inducing for his team as a random console peasant. And the only way of gaining said knowledge, additionaly to memorizing it all as you say, are countless series of ~40 minute matches. Hence the learning curve.

On another note MOBAs are complex games - both in themselves (from the perspective of a non-gamer) and relatively to other genres. You completely skipped the 'team-based' part I emphasised - one of main factors of both the complexity and the steepness of the learning curve. I strongly suggest you watch a competitive match cast where it's usually mentioned how a seemingly insignificant decision by a progamer leads to his teams victory or defeat. And you can rest assured that the decision was made conciously with an expectation of a certain outcome - something which will never be bellieved by a layman and called pure luck.

There is one redeeming factor to your misguided reply: Indeed you don't have to know it all to play a pub game. You can jump right in, frag an even bigger-than-you newb and instantly know-it-all (as the author of the above article humorously noted). It's possible to win (even a competitive) game without being aware of all the mechanics playing out, because the control of such complexity escapes human capacity. But still the rule holds: the more you have learnt the bigger your advantage over the enemy. But again, we were talking about the learning curve. To master a MOBA game you are required to invest much more time than in the RTS genre

P.S. You imply I am biased by being a MOBA player yet I play this genre as much as any other.

 

[Steve]

Ease of getting into the game has nothing to do with the steepness of the learning curve

Nope, steep learning curve means the game is hard to learn and even harded to master which dota is not, you dont have to know all the little details to play the game and succeed in it.

What's more, this implied easiness does not come from the lack of complexity. In my opinion it comes from the fact that it's a team based game

Again, that's not very complex, would you say WoW is a complex game because you have to use the right skills at the right time?

There's a tremendous difference between an entry-level player and a pro but unlike in other genres this gap is assured by in-game trivia that needs to be learnt

Yes, of course there is a difference between a noob and a pro but you should be kicked in the nuts for basically saying that dota invented "metagaming". Why is it more important here than in WoW or even Starcraft? Learning some "trivia" doesnt make a steep learning curve.

To master a MOBA game you are required to invest much more time than in the RTS genre

Yep, confirmed for a shitty troll as Dota was basically for people who sucked at WC3.

Not saying I dont like Dota by the way, I like a few games every now and then but after that its gets kinda boring.

 

[Castanova]

In Starcraft 2, you can reach Diamond League exclusively through cheesing or by mastering a one-base timing attack. Not sure how that's any different than succeeding in a MOBA without knowing all the gory details. In both cases you can circumvent portions of the learning curve at the expense of never achieving your maximum potential.

Both types of games have steep learning curves. Dota's learning curve is more focused on memorization of masses amount of information while Starcraft's learning curve is more focused on executing rote build orders and macro mechanics.

 

[bot]

Nope, steep learning curve means the game is hard to learn and even harded to master which dota is not, you dont have to know all the little details to play the game and succeed in it.

Non sequitur? The part after the "Nope" does not refute anything I wrote, in fact it seems we are in agreement. Maybe we have a problem with semantics here? From my perspective (easy, quick) 'getting into the game' means being able to successfully participate in the game's content right from the start. In MOBAs the course of the game is intuitive for a newb - you have a single avatar and a base to destroy. The learning curve is a separate thing from the above. It describes how difficult it is to improve your skills after the initiation. As I described extensively in previous posts, steepness of the learning curve comes from two factors both of which I recommend you apply to RTS genre for comparison:

1) sheer amount of data that needs to be memorized first, and then experienced in game second, preferably multiple times.
2) complexity of team-based gameplay

Take Eve Online for example, different gameplay type I realize but still a good way to show what I mean. It is both difficult to get into the game (vague game goals, emphasis on being in a corporation, huge out-of-the-game range of activities having direct connection with in-game ones) and to improve your skills (extensive game mechanics and content knowledge, politics etc.). DotA is relatively easy to get into but comparably difficult to master with all the complexity and lore.
So: 'easy' is relative. It only makes sense to compare the difficulty to other genre. I did it in the previous post in relation to the RTS genre. Do you care to explain how DotA is 'easy to master'? Do you have any experience with competitive play?

Again, that's not very complex, would you say WoW is a complex game because you have to use the right skills at the right time?

Yes and no. Which part of WoW? MMORPGs and WoW in particular have the potential of being the most complex games out there. Devs however neutralize this potential by their development decisions. I don't have experience with WoW past Burning Crusade expansion but during those days Arenas had great potential of being a very complex e-sport medium which was ruined by two development decisions: RNGs (random number generators: critical hits, damage ranges, luck based skills and randomness) and healing spells bloat. There was also famous Blizzard statement that they do not care about PvP at all, which showed.
I can hardly believe you say team-based gameplay is not complex. Again, relatively to duels (what else can we compare it to? ) complexity grows exponentialy with the number of acting agents. It's pure math. I wrote about it the other day in Gaming sociology time! thread.

Yes, of course there is a difference between a noob and a pro but you should be kicked in the nuts for basically saying that dota invented "metagaming".

Have I said it? provide me with the quote.

Why is it more important here than in WoW or even Starcraft? Learning some "trivia" doesnt make a steep learning curve.

Learning some a lot of "trivia" doesn't DOES make a steep learning curve. See below.

MOBAs reach the peak of complexity and depth even before a match begins - both on the hero selection screen and in-match countdown-to-start phase. This is where the meta-game plays out - something that usually absent in the RTS genre). The sheer number of possible combinations of heroes, item and skill builds, lane setups etc. is astounding. It takes enormous amount of time to learn every possibility, not to mention experiene them in action. What's more, the steepness of the curve is artificially increased by inflated game time required to finish a single game - from 15 minutes to over an hour. Be aware that, unlike in SC2, player is not given the opportunity to explore multiple 'builds' per game - those are usually cemented before the game has even started.

This is what I wrote, doesn't it state it clearly enough? Which part don't you agree with?
Meta:
BW/SC2: 2 players, one race out of 3, random location (on some maps), build order. W3: previous plus hero choice with multiple viable builds.
DotA/HoN: hero out of hundred, lane composition, item and skill build, multiplied by 10 players
RTS' are flexible enough to allow some adaptation after the start of the game. In MOBAs you commit much more during hero selection, hence the importance of pre-match meta-game in that genre.

Yep, confirmed for a shitty troll as Dota was basically for people who sucked at WC3.

Well, I agree (except the troll part). Now tell me how does it refute any of the points I made? Do you subconciously substitute complex for MAJECTIC in your head? Complexity or the learning curve doesn't make a better competitive/e-sport game. There is a quality to complexity which comes from intelligent game design. Extensive lore can be justified and made viable by smart development choices. Quality over quantity but sometimes they come in pairs - is it the case in MOBAs?