Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[NonToxic]

Heroes were supposed to be implemented in the same way they were in DoTA 1 with the exception of attack animations and some cosmetic stuff with models. So this isnt really a beta, just not all heroes are in currently (which MAY change picks but wont change overall strategies).

Until all the heros are in, though, the game is off from a balance perspective. Consider the strength of Lycan at the moment in Dota 2, compared to being marginal in Dota 1 (made so by the full roster of anti-melee). The game is not the same until the game is...well, the same.

 

[kingcomrade22]

And suggesting that CM is good without aura is heresy.

That's exactly what it is. It's heresy against dogma created a long time ago that's now irrelevant and children cling to parroting it in the hopes people will recognize how pro they are. You still get aura, but you max nova and ice first. That's the way every single CM player I've seen in every Dota 2 tournament in the past 3 or 4 months has played her, and they're right.

Nobody needs her aura, not the way the game is played now, and not with mana boots, wand, and all the new sobi mask items. Nobody especially needs her aura compared to having the extra ganking power of having her other spells higher level. Picking CM for 2 mana per second at level 7 is derp considering how much offensive power she has early on.

Don't teach father how to fuck, son.

I like how you think this is a debate. You're not smart enough, and you're wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/user/joinDOTA/videos
Feel free to educate yourself, there's plenty of CMs picked in the games there. There's forums out there for people who are new to the game that might be able to help you, as well.

 

[Malakal]

KC why even pick CM then? If not for her aura? There are BETTER roamers/gankers/nukers, heroes that do it more efficiently than CM and have more staying power (like lion for example).

CM with her aura maxed at 7 helps will all lanes for all heroes and that is what counts in competitive gameplay - early advantage translates into late advantage.

Also CM with 4 aura 1 frostbite and at least 1 nuke is as good as a ganker as CM with maxed nuke and frostbite.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Kinda inclined to agree with kc actually. By the time you're level 7, everyone who would benefit from the mana already has massive mana regen from either boots or the hp > mana thingy. And the aura isn't enough to make it so they don't need to buy those anyways. Slow and root are likely way more important. From level 1 to 4 the slow doubles in radius (which is more than double the area), doubles the strength of the slow and doubles the duration.

That said, neither of those skills are good enough to warrant picking her unless you're desperate for a support hero in single draft or randomed her. Pretty much every other support hero beats her in disables or burst damage, if not both.

 

[Metro]

So much hostility here. You can all make fun of me -- I just used to play Dota with a few of my friends and usually there weren't many of us so we'd have to play co-op versus bots. Of course the AI for the WC3 iteration was pretty terrible so now that I'm playing the DOTA 2 beta (by myself, mostly) it takes me forty+ minutes to beat a team of the easiest bots.

 

[Zed]

You don't need aura and lots of pros play CM without it.

But that doesn't mean it's not completely retarded to skip it in a pub game.

 

[kingcomrade22]

KC why even pick CM then?

I've already said a couple times. She's a support hero with great offensive abilities. How you got it into your head that nova and ice suck is baffling. Off the top of my head I can't think of someone who has such long duration slow and root on a support hero. AND they do good damage. People forget that spell damage matters.

There are BETTER roamers/gankers/nukers

I don't know why you think CM sucks at ganking, nuking, roaming, or supporting.

Also CM with 4 aura 1 frostbite and at least 1 nuke is as good as a ganker as CM with maxed nuke and frostbite.

Maybe you're innumerate? That would explain it a lot.

That said, neither of those skills are good enough to warrant picking her unless you're desperate for a support hero in single draft or randomed her.

I kinda sorta disagree, I think she's strong enough to be worth picking. There are better supports, but they are often banned or picked by the enemy team. Na'Vi and....I think It's Gosu use CM on a very regular basis just because she's such a reliable support hero. Like I said above, who else has such a massive slow AND a long duration root early in the game? Some support heroes can do a bit more burst damage (though not many), but she's reliable, easy, and powerful. That's why antimage is picked/banned. It's not because he's just a harder carry than other heroes, it's just because he's easy, safe, and reliable.

(edit- I just played against a tryhard duo who picked antimage lich, clan tags and all, and fuck if I didn't have 2 retards on my team, but the other 2 guys were good and we eventually throned them after they fucked up a teamfight, god I LOVE beating antimage players. antimage and invoker players are the players I want to make eat shit and it feels great when you do)

now that I'm playing the DOTA 2 beta (by myself, mostly) it takes me forty+ minutes to beat a team of the easiest bots

Are you playing with bot teammates? Because bot teammates are retarded. I might play some coop with you, I play coop games to relax at night.

 

[Malakal]

You don't need aura and lots of pros play CM without it.

But that doesn't mean it's not completely retarded to skip it in a pub game.

After they worked some time on DoTA1 bots they were unplayable. Because of their skill. 100% hit and deny on higher levels. They still sucked at ganking but since they got a huge item and level advantage... unbeatable solo.

 

[Malakal]

This item build is horrible. Tiny needs dagger, coupled with arcane boots. After that either shiva or assault cuirass. Aghanim isnt bad but games shouldnt last that long with tiny. Practice double avalanching and you are set to go no matter what you make (other than dagger).

 

[udm]

Malakal sorry I deleted my post. So, I should go with: arcane boots, dagger, cuirass, aghanim? Is heart important?

 

[Malakal]

Malakal sorry I deleted my post. So, I should go with: arcane boots, dagger, cuirass, aghanim? Is heart important?

HoT gives you less ehp (effective hp) than AC but of course after AC its decent. IF game takes that long, it rarely does nowadays. But has to compete with: guinsoo - can be VERY good depending on enemy heroes, BKB - sometimes hood just doesnt cut it.

HoT < AC for tanking damage unless you already have high base armor (like DK) and < pipe/hood for tanking spells. So its an item that you rarely need and will rarely make on any hero. Mainly on carries that need some extra hp - regen is pointless, HoT is about max hp.

Remember that you have to fill your role in the team. Tiny is a perfect ganker/nuker early with potential 1k spell combo at level 8 (ignore growth) in AOE. Later... depends on your team. You most likely wont carry so only tanking is available later on, but who knows.

 

[Metro]

Stumbled on to a wiki: http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Heroes -- can't really vouch for how sound the advice is but it seems decent enough for people still learning. It has strategies, suggested starting/middle/end equipment, etc.

 

[Damned Registrations]

One thing people always seem to overlook with Tiny is that his damage boost from his ult is pure fucking damage, not some crit or something. And it scales with AS better than other damage buffs, since it's 'balance' is an AS penalty. +50 attack speed when you're sitting at 80 is huge compared to when you're already sitting at 160 on an agi hero.

Obviously you're not going to be the carry, but I've always figured getting your attack speed up to ~170 or so on Tiny was your next priority after mana and blink. It lets you mash towers to bits. Which is, you know, the point of the game. Killing a tower 3 seconds faster is the difference between having the enemy carry revive or not in a lot of situations.

Of course, this is less important if your team already has great tower killing heroes like Lesh or the bear. But if it's mostly spell damage and the carry is mostly relying on crits and procs (Juggernaut is a good example, or Mortred or Riki) having an extra hero that matches your hard carry's DPS against buildings can be a huge help.

 

[Metro]

So I was watching a random match and this guy was a good player so I looked at his profile for laughs... and he has 3,500 hours played in Dota 2. Didn't this only come out like two years ago max? That means one fourth of his entire activity the last two years consists of Dota. I suppose he could have just left the computer running but...

 

[kingcomrade22]

One thing people always seem to overlook with Tiny is that his damage boost from his ult is pure fucking damage, not some crit or something. And it scales with AS better than other damage buffs, since it's 'balance' is an AS penalty. +50 attack speed when you're sitting at 80 is huge compared to when you're already sitting at 160 on an agi hero.

Obviously you're not going to be the carry, but I've always figured getting your attack speed up to ~170 or so on Tiny was your next priority after mana and blink. It lets you mash towers to bits. Which is, you know, the point of the game. Killing a tower 3 seconds faster is the difference between having the enemy carry revive or not in a lot of situations.

Of course, this is less important if your team already has great tower killing heroes like Lesh or the bear. But if it's mostly spell damage and the carry is mostly relying on crits and procs (Juggernaut is a good example, or Mortred or Riki) having an extra hero that matches your hard carry's DPS against buildings can be a huge help.

Not to mention since Tiny's ult's damage is base damage, having a Vengeful Spirit and Vlad's on your team is pretty funny. The singsing guy whose stream I mentioned, he plays Tiny more than any other hero and his build is always the same. Phase Boots, Bottle, Wand, Mask of Madness, Aghanim's. He only does troll builds in pubs and it's funny how well they work most of the time.

 

[Malakal]

Funny tip: alpha wolf command aura is better than Vengeful Spirits one. Get a HoD and its a huge boon to the team, especially on tiny.

 

[kingcomrade22]

Alpha Wolves are also hard to keep alive, though.

 

[Malakal]

Yes, thats why doombringer is so great as a hero. Eat alpha wolf and you have both his crit and aura, also is an excellent nuker and tank with good farming.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yeah was going to mention Vlad's/auras. Vlad's is pretty awesome if your team goes overboard with melee in general. And the damage/armor aura helps a lot on pushes.

AC is great for pushing and support too, I don't really get why you'd want sceptre over it on Tiny. I guess sceptre is cheaper? But the difference between the two for pushing a tower is probably pretty small after you've factored in the -armor aura, the attack speed, and the effect of both of those on your creeps.

A lot of things people think are bad are actually pretty decent. MoM has this weird reputation of being absolutely horrible among most people who know enough to carry TP scrolls and generally not be terrible. It's like they assuming the active ability just turns itself on whenever enemies are around or something. For it's price it's pretty fucking awesome, easily gives enough sustain to farm the jungle like a vanguard would, but lets you farm it faster (massive attack speed buff) and the passive lifesteal is probably about as good as a vanguard in most battles anyways. Need to do about 1500 hp of damage... about 1 hero kill mid game. Lategame obviously more of a benefit as hp ballons, early game not as nice, but early game you should be farming anyways, and only be in a fight where you aren't getting hit back. And the active is so useful when you aren't getting hit. Crush towers, catch up to fleeing heroes, escape chasing heroes, whale on stunned/silenced enemies, finish off people after they've blown their load already... all these situations make it pretty awesome. But if you pick the thing up everyone in the game assumes you're a retard and you're gonna mash the button at the start of every team fight and never touch it otherwise. Which is admittedly what a bunch of people do... but retards also grab bottles and use them badly and nobody assumes that's a shit item.

 

[udm]

Malakal sorry I deleted my post. So, I should go with: arcane boots, dagger, cuirass, aghanim? Is heart important?

HoT gives you less ehp (effective hp) than AC but of course after AC its decent. IF game takes that long, it rarely does nowadays. But has to compete with: guinsoo - can be VERY good depending on enemy heroes, BKB - sometimes hood just doesnt cut it.

HoT < AC for tanking damage unless you already have high base armor (like DK) and < pipe/hood for tanking spells. So its an item that you rarely need and will rarely make on any hero. Mainly on carries that need some extra hp - regen is pointless, HoT is about max hp.

Remember that you have to fill your role in the team. Tiny is a perfect ganker/nuker early with potential 1k spell combo at level 8 (ignore growth) in AOE. Later... depends on your team. You most likely wont carry so only tanking is available later on, but who knows.

Good advice, I'll keep that in mind thanks.

 

[meh]

AC is great for pushing and support too, I don't really get why you'd want sceptre over it on Tiny. I guess sceptre is cheaper? But the difference between the two for pushing a tower is probably pretty small after you've factored in the -armor aura, the attack speed, and the effect of both of those on your creeps.

Aghanim's is used to three-shot ranged barracks. MoM is cheapest AS item, so combining both you become the new clinkz with stacked divines by backdooring everything.

 

[Malakal]

MoM works perfectly right now, almost any hero reliant on damage can use it. Especially spirit breaker, nigh stalker, svenn and guys like that. With BKB has almost no drawback.

Good all active combo is: MoM, BKB, Armlet of Mordiggan. Huge dps.

The reason why MoM isnt used in pubs is because people suck too much to use it effectively (like ALL activated items), and it isnt used in pro games because that 20% extra damage is crucial there. Shines on mid games though, I see it constantly in dotalicious skill level 1-2.

 

[Hoodoo]

The biggest drawback about MoM is that it takes up your orb effect, otherwise awesome item.

 

[Zed]

The biggest drawback about MoM is that it takes up your orb effect, otherwise awesome item.

with the exception of stacking with Skadi on ranged heroes.

 

[kingcomrade22]

I'm trying to find heroes to get Halberd on. I just love the item, completely, but most heroes I play I would rather get something else. It's this weird mix of midgame survivability and utility from the Sange and late game utility from the evasion and disarm. The problem is during the midgame most heroes would rather have tons of different things besides a sange, so you get it late and it ends up being just a relatively small, by that point, HP buff component. Only time I ever really had success with it was late game on a Tidehunter to disarm an antimage so our carries could kill him.

My favorite item in the game, though, is urn, the next two being medallion and force staff. Those small cheap items are just so good and useful. My favorite expensive item is Necro, but it just never really performs that well for me.
All the cheap stat items (bracer, null, wraith) are kind of useless nowadays. They're good to get if you random so you can have an advantage in laning, and you need a bracer for drum, but otherwise there's just no real reason to get any of these items. All they do is delay items that make a difference.