Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

[Infinitron]

Disco Elysium writer interviewed by Xbox's Major Nelson podcast:

 

[Marat]

HDB: "It makes me sick, thinking about the thousands... millions... billions? How many people are there, actually?"
A: "Um..."
HDB: "Kim, how many people are there in the world"
KK: "Three-point-six billion, not counting those on Seol."
HDB: "Really? That many?! Reduces me to tears thinking of the 3.6 billion and god knows how many more in that Seol place, crushed under the tyranny of the market."
A: "Yeah, that's pretty bad," she nods. "Are you sure you're not just hung up on some chick though?"

SHUT UP, SHUT UP!!! YOU DON'T KNOW ME!

Spoiler

 

[Verylittlefishes]

HDB: "It makes me sick, thinking about the thousands... millions... billions? How many people are there, actually?"
A: "Um..."
HDB: "Kim, how many people are there in the world"
KK: "Three-point-six billion, not counting those on Seol."
HDB: "Really? That many?! Reduces me to tears thinking of the 3.6 billion and god knows how many more in that Seol place, crushed under the tyranny of the market."
A: "Yeah, that's pretty bad," she nods. "Are you sure you're not just hung up on some chick though?"

SHUT UP, SHUT UP!!! YOU DON'T KNOW ME!

Spoiler

Huh what a game
It's been a two years, soon time for replay.

 

[Harthwain]

I'll agree - though someone forthrightly saying they didn't play a game but stating their position, geez, well, he said he didn't play it. You seemed pretty angry.

To clarify: I wasn't angry, I was confused (hence the literal WTF question and rating), because you were talking about "the premise and the gameplay" out of the blue. Then I added that people who didn't play it (or fail at reading/watching) happen to miss the mark by thinking the game uses various ideologies in a conventional way, and provided an example in which I contrasted text from the game with somebody's opinion to prove it. That's about it.

I guess I am going to replay the game as a feminist. Sounds fun.

 

[Lujo]

Replaying it with the missus, having fun. Figured something out, wanted to share, dunno if this was obvious.

Always wondered why the check to stop making the expression was an electrochemistry check and not a volition one. Then it hit me.

Spoiler

The way to stop making it is to show up in front of the mirror looking and feeling like the biggest, most gone junkie in the world. Seeing that in the mirror is what makes you snap out of it.

Thought it was brilliant.

 

[KVVRR]

You're being disingenuous.

Also, they, like, killed a lot of people. There's a smart centrist man who once calculated that communism has killed 100 billion people in total

That's commie propaganda. In fact, that's reddit-level commie propaganda. And you can say "oh no, but it's different, because in the fantasy world of Disco Elysium, the communists didn't actually kill millions". But that brings up the question, why make up a fantasy world where the communists didn't actually kill millions? It's like making up a fantasy world with no scarcity so that you can have "gay luxury space communism" or whatever the kids are calling it these days.

How many times do people have to point out that those are HARRY'S thoughts and conclusions, composed almost entirely of pure, unadultered copium? The entire game is narrated by a schizo unreliable narrator for fuck's sake.

 

[Joggerino]

Your own face reveal is the highlight of the game IMO :D
(spoiler alert!)

Spoiler

 

[Harthwain]

How many times do people have to point out that those are HARRY'S thoughts and conclusions, composed almost entirely of pure, unadultered copium? The entire game is narrated by a schizo unreliable narrator for fuck's sake.

The narrator describing political alignments and thoughts from the Thought Cabinet adresses the player/the main character. In fact, he narrates everything you do and appears to be reliable (as opposed to whatever conclusions you decide to make out of what's going on around you). It has to be really messed up when you have your body parts acting on their own AND your... sense of observation(? Knowledge?) communicate with you this way too and acting in even more separate manner than your other senses.

Then again this is Disco Elysium, so I guess this is not impossible scenario.

 

[KVVRR]

How many times do people have to point out that those are HARRY'S thoughts and conclusions, composed almost entirely of pure, unadultered copium? The entire game is narrated by a schizo unreliable narrator for fuck's sake.

The narrator describing political alignments and thoughts from the Thought Cabinet adresses the player/the main character. In fact, he narrates everything you do and appears to be reliable (as opposed to whatever conclusions you decide to make out of what's going on around you). It has to be really messed up when you have your body parts acting on their own AND your... sense of observation(? Knowledge?) communicate with you this way too and acting in even more separate manner than your other senses.

Then again this is Disco Elysium, so I guess this is not impossible scenario.

Remember when in the dream with Dora, she describes how Harry only sees conversations as trees? And how Harry replies that it's the "more efficient way to talk" or something like that? They're referencing the fact that you (and hence Harry) use the dialogue tree system in order to speak to everyone else in the world, including your own thoughts.

In a game where there's stuff like that and you're constantly bombarded by your own subconcious inciting you to do stuff in a certain way or not, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the mechanic called "THOUGHT cabinet" where you literally have Harry actively think about something for hours in-game, is a reflection of that character's state of mind. Even more so when the vast mayority of the thoughts are about his personal life and feelings.
The only thing that goes against this is, as far as I recall, the Tutorial Agent that sometimes pops up.

 

[Lujo]

I suppose most people wrote their review ages ago, but I never did, and I just replayed it accompanied with someone who did play PS:T but isn't generally a gamer of any kind. So here's a short review.

The Obvious:

Spoiler

1) I see people wondering whether it makes sense to compare it with PS:T. There's no question, it's about as much the same story as it can be - regret laden individual wakes up in a horrible place, in a horrible state, amnesiac, trudges through city slum trying to make sense of themselves, piece together who they were and who they want to be, finds their journal and interacts with people who've known them before (briefly or well enough), while the world around them subverts the expectations of hack and slash based "rpgs". The origin point of this game was PST, there's no question about it. It's not so much a "spiritual sequel" as a genre-shifted remake.

2) Combat doesn't really belong in it. In fact, you could have combat in it, but the typical gameplay loop of killing people and taking their stuff to sell doesn't belong in realism. The plot is kicked off by a murder. The murder victim was looted for their armor. This causes police to be called, suspects to run and hide, groups to concoct alibi stories, most of the neighbourhood to either be unable not to form an opinion on it or take conscious effort to ignore it. Murder and robbery are crimes in real life. You can't have a game that aims to depict realistic (and hilarious) consequences of actions and bad habits, and then have killing folks to rob them be a major part of it, it just doesn't work.

3) Is it an RPG? Yep. You can boil both it and PS:T down to presenting you with a protagonist who already has a past, with the major part of gameplay being, well, "character creation", as your new self goes around learning about his past self (or selves, as it were), and deciding on who they are now and who they want to be. It's just not a power fantasy, at least not a blatant one.

4) Does it have a lot in common with point and click adventures, visual novels and such? Yep. So would any RPG if you took combat and murderhoboing out of it. You do go around gaining XP, resources, improving your skills, and how you choose to approach or solve situations depends on which role you decide to play. It's just not about what weapon your character specializes in, but what sort of person (and/or police officer) they are.

The less obvious:

Spoiler

1) The story can't be happening in actual real world, because it'd be stuck to how things played out historically, and transporting it to da different-yet-recognizable setting helps with the suspension of disbelief. This is a double-edged sword, because a ton of what's going on all the time is worldbuilding. But it worldbuilds something that so similar to real world that you can get lost and tired off keeping track of the fictional names and about what's supposed to be a parallel for what, what's a mashup, and so on and so forth. Also, the game plays with the audience's patience when it indulges in developing the setting too much, as its strength comes from unabashed (and charming) realism/naturalism, and a person drawn to it doesn't need the setting to be anything but an East European Baltimore. The more the game insists that there's an "rpg setting" behind it, the less it plays to it's strengths.

2) The way the ideologies are treated is both cartoonish and realistic. The scenario of "amnesiac runs around asking silly question" is hardcore unrealistic, but it does set up anyone he talks to to mouth off on their favorite topic, to someone impressionable. Adults can be like this towards kids IRL. It's cartoonish, because, well, a whole lot of people are vulgar, silly, overblown and cartoonish in their own handling of whatever ideology they subscribe to. And, taken to extremes, ideologies can produce just that sort of thing. Ideology is on display in more subtle ways in some characters, even if some are just caricatures. I think the game did more than just "well, it's refreshing that someone's at least talking about these things", and the writers did show more understanding about the various ideologies than most people would expect, even when it comes down to just roasting them a lot.

I suppose most people would think their own ideology got the short end of the stick, but if I'd have to rate it, Fascism was done right if somewhat more self-aware than it usually is (this tends to dismay some people), libertarianism is about as much of a joke as it is in real life, moralism is both roasted yet represented in a mature form by Kim, and communism is in a weeeeeeird spot. All of them have pretty clear distinctions between people who just lean towards them / subscribe to them but have no real power, and people who do. I think this is what most people miss when they consider how they were implemented.

The technical

Spoiler

1) Game does kinda fall apart once the coast area unlocks, structurally. It just feel less worked on than the first area, emptier, less connected to the main plot.

2) Thought Cabinet was a good idea, but I'm not happy with the execution as some thoughts are just clearly more powerful than others.

3) Motorics is in a weird spot, and once you've played around a few times it kinda seems that you're really supposed to pick one of the three other ones + high motorics.

4) The system is cool for a paper RPG, but it's a bit limited to a "protagonist driven RPG" when it comes to making a video game, I'd say. A weird quirk of it is that you're more likely to put points into skills that aren't your primary thing in order to pass / unlock checks. This can then lead to what some folks were reporting as "how come my idiot buff cop gets all these high-brow lines".

5) I severely dislike the engine, as it's slow, cumbersome, prone to interface bugs and so on and so forth. Nothing to bash the devs for, just hope that if they make another one it's made in a different one.

6) Inventory juggling kinda gets tiring after a while.

Otherwise - loved it, waited for a sequel to Torment all my life, it *is* it. Any game of this sort is bound to end up flawed. Blows most media out of the water when it comes to topics, writing, situations, is about as deep as you can get on certain things while remaining in the field of popular entertainment/culture. Also a cultural landmark for its age and generation for sure, even outside of its medium. I hope it earned its makers enough money for a sequel, even though I'm just not sure how to pull this off twice, as the "amnesiac scenario" is so integral to the experience that it's gonna feel contrived AF if they try it again, and if the next game is less of a personal journey it's just not gonna be as great.

Planescape: Torment meets The Wire by way of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, written by non-Americans which gave it a wider array of topics and tropes than you usually see in games. Probably resonates quite a bit in parts of the US, too, as it does cover plenty of universal stuff. Very, very, very good stuff.

 

[Inland Empire]

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1027160/-Disco-Elysium-Meaningless-Choices

 

[Verylittlefishes]

how many writers worked on this in total? Kasparov

 

[Harthwain]

how many writers worked on this in total? Kasparov

According to Helen Hindpere:

Um, so that number has changed quite a lot over the time, but we usually have around at least one, four to five writers on the team and then sometimes we bring on people for shorter amounts of times to write maybe one dialogue or edit this piece. But if you look at the credits then I think the names there I think the number is around seven eight. So we've had many, many people working with us. But yeah, like, the standard size of the writers' team is like four or five people.

Source:

Spoiler

 

[Inhabitants of Khorinis]

It's simple: shit RPG, great Point & Click

 

[Ismaul]

It's simple: shit RPG, great Point & Click

Ahhh yes, just like Diablo.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I see that my categorization was actually very accurate. The game sets the entrance barrier very low in many places, but apparently too high in others.

I've noticed that DE haters are often very very retarded.

Like people that use very twice to describe something.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I see that my categorization was actually very accurate. The game sets the entrance barrier very low in many places, but apparently too high in others.

I've noticed that DE haters are often very very retarded.

Like people that use very twice to describe something.

That argument was so feeble I am worried it's in the final stages of the COVID syndrome.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I see that my categorization was actually very accurate. The game sets the entrance barrier very low in many places, but apparently too high in others.

I've noticed that DE haters are often very very retarded.

Like people that use very twice to describe something.

That argument was so feeble I am worried it's in the final stages of the COVID syndrome.

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I see that my categorization was actually very accurate. The game sets the entrance barrier very low in many places, but apparently too high in others.

I've noticed that DE haters are often very very retarded.

Like people that use very twice to describe something.

That argument was so feeble I am worried it's in the final stages of the COVID syndrome.

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

Please go on, this is so much fun to contemplate you little subhumans, trying to articulate why this big bad game that you don't understand is actually "stupid" and "not RPG".

 

[ItsChon]

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

The issue isn't people not liking the game. The game has no combat for fucks sake, I'd be surprised if there weren't a lot of people that didn't like the game on principle. The issue is that the vast majority of the people who claim to not like the game proceed to list all sorts of bullshit about the game. If someone said "game is shit, no combat" there would be no argument to be had. It's when people like to claim the entire game is a front to push Commie propaganda, or claim it's just an adventure game and shouldn't be counted as an RPG, etc, when things go off the rails.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I see that my categorization was actually very accurate. The game sets the entrance barrier very low in many places, but apparently too high in others.

I've noticed that DE haters are often very very retarded.

Like people that use very twice to describe something.

That argument was so feeble I am worried it's in the final stages of the COVID syndrome.

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

Please go on, this is so much fun to contemplate you little subhumans, trying to articulate why this big bad game that you don't understand is actually "stupid" and "not RPG".

Not sure if you are just seeing enemies everywhere but I found it to be a competent RPG (still prefer a little combat) just not a suitable replacement for something like Planescape. I think you attached too much of your precious ego to the game so you are getting defensive.

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

The issue isn't people not liking the game. The game has no combat for fucks sake, I'd be surprised if there weren't a lot of people that didn't like the game on principle. The issue is that the vast majority of the people who claim to not like the game proceed to list all sorts of bullshit about the game. If someone said "game is shit, no combat" there would be no argument to be had. It's when people like to claim the entire game is a front to push Commie propaganda, or claim it's just an adventure game and shouldn't be counted as an RPG, etc, when things go off the rails.

The problem people like you fanboys have is I did not immediately suck the games dick so I must be one of the haters like all the other Codex retards that hate PoE just because it wasn't Baldur's Gate.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

Dude, you made your joke (I thought it was just a joke), and I made mine, let's leave it there. I have no interest in flame wars, and I've said on many occasions, everyone play what they like. The rest is just pulling your leg.

 

[AwesomeButton]

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1027160/-Disco-Elysium-Meaningless-Choices

This is what a codexer rant about reactivity would look like if people on the internet nowadays still had an interest in expressing their views at length in writing instead of with memes.

It was just great in the way he diplomatically rebutts Sawyer's "no bad builds" and sends him back to first grade, casually mentioning "this is a political belief we have". Also rebutts once again the "they are all communists, doing commie propaganda" misinterpretation.

The examples he considers bad are from D:OS2 and Deadfire, illustrated with screenshots.

He confirmed a suspicion I've had for a long time, on why dialogue in RPGs these days is so bad. Because all the cool things that used to be done and that DE goes back to doing are considered "mistakes" because they waste "resources". Which inexorably leads us to the well known problem - the process of producing RPGs nowadays ensures they will be shit before it's even started.*

And it's not just pretentious grognard talk. They are objectively bad RPGs.

It appears you have to go back to people with skill and imagination who are doing dialogue that's just for characterization or atmosphere purpose, and are doing it for fun. And then also, as he himself says - there is no way around doing an ungodly amount of writing, if you want your dialogue to feel tailor-made for the player. What he can't say himself but I can say - you need writers who are very smart people, empathic, and with real lived experience, in order to pull this off, and no English Major brainlet with blue hair will ever do.

But the best part was at the end where he said he is currently working on improving his techniques further, apparently for their next project.

* In my unfinished Disco Elysium review, one point I am making is that DE is not really revolution in RPGs, with demands for better quality, as Kurwitz I think was implying or openly claiming. On the contrary, it's a return to very old "manual" methods of faking the existence of a good dungeon master, by providing answers for widely branching behavior, and doing it by hand. That's not a revolution, more a "reform" in the original sense - "a return to the old form".

 

[None]

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1027160/-Disco-Elysium-Meaningless-Choices

"this element of micro reactivity created a total of 428 dialogue cards that had to be written, programmed..."

I respect his perseverance, but am surprised that ZA/UM has no way of storing and referencing text as a variable. This seems like such a horrible shortcoming that only makes the writers' jobs that much more time consuming.

 

[Harthwain]

Then why did you respond to it? Why are you fuckers so adamant about people that didn't love the game being morons anyway? Does it make you feel smart?

Action causes reaction - if you try to shit on the game with well known (and tired) one-liners, then you must expect to have a similar kind of response for such low-effort posting. That said, if someone makes his points on why he didn't like the game and does so in a constructive and detailed manner, then a proper discussion tends to take place instead. So, is anyone who didn't love the game a moron? No, but for some reason very few people who didn't love the game seem to make an effort when making their critique and they get treated accordingly. At this point one has to ask: is this a coincidence or a regularity?