Developer Story Time with Old Man Davis

[Monty]

So. Priorities / interests of consumers and producers don't align. Consumers complain about producers.

I wonder if this happens in any other industries?

 

[Mrowak]

It may appear all noble to you to finish the damn game, to but reality was such that because it was no longer beneficial to do so in order to alleviate untold damages to themselves (financial difficulties and lay-offs) it had to be done.

Dude, I don't give a fuck. The problem with "business savvy" gamers like you is that you become so interested in the inner workings of the gaming industry that you end up aligning yourselves, knowingly or not, with a party whose interests aren't aligned with those of gamers.

Oh, I do so knowingly, if only because gamers themselves do not know what is in their best interest.

I understand that LucasArts had problems, but that doesn't concern me. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't do their job by allowing the game to be released unfinished. The gamer always comes first. Period.

No, it's the business that comes first, and anyone claiming otherwise is buying hype and deluding himself.

Quite frankly as far as I am concerned it is Obsidian who didn't do their job - they couldn't make it to the date that was *originally* agreed upon - the later extension was an *extra* given to them out of *goodwill* in the face of the fact that they could not keep their part of the bargain. Additionally the time extention was not agreed in any tangible form - that's asking for a disaster. It's business 101.

 

[Infinitron]

Quite frankly as far as I am concerned it is Obsidian who didn't do their job - they couldn't make it to the date that was *originally* agreed upon - the later extension was an *extra* given to them out of *goodwill* in the face of the fact that they could not keep their part of the bargain. Additionally the time extention was not agreed in any tangible form - that's asking for a disaster. It's business 101.

As a gamer, exactly what happened between Obsidian and LucasArts shouldn't really interest me. An unfinished game was released. Games should not be released unfinished.

Again, this is NOT a revolutionary demand. No production studio in Hollywood will ever release a film with the last 20 minutes unedited because "lol, business".

You think you're business savvy, but you're really just sticking up for an industry which is pathetically immature.

 

[Mrowak]

Quite frankly as far as I am concerned it is Obsidian who didn't do their job - they couldn't make it to the date that was *originally* agreed upon - the later extension was an *extra* given to them out of *goodwill* in the face of the fact that they could not keep their part of the bargain. Additionally the time extention was not agreed in any tangible form - that's asking for a disaster. It's business 101.

As a gamer, exactly what happened between Obsidian and LucasArts shouldn't really interest me. An unfinished game was released. Games should not be released unfinished.

Then blame it on Obsidian who did make it in time. At the very least they are as responsible as LA (if not more - remember the painter case?).

Again, this is NOT a revolutionary demand. No production studio in Hollywood will ever release a film with the last 20 minutes unedited because "lol, business".

You think you're business savvy, but you're really just sticking up for an industry which is pathetically immature.

Quite frankly I am not business savy - I just use common sense. I find hard time to solely blame LucasArts for what happened, because it all stems from every group doing what was in their best interest.

I remain a gamer through and through - I am not pleased with the state KotOR was released in... but these days, knowing how IT projects are made and managed I find it harder and harder to stick to the side of the "poor, abused developers", seeing that often they are themselves to blame.

 

[Roguey]

They were forbidden from doing so when development of FO:NV began

MCA told me that had never been the case. He told me all Obsidian devs were and remain always free to post wherever they want.

You can choose not to trust MCA on that, of course

Ah I see. Yeah TBH I always had the feeling that was an urban legend. I feel bad for repeating it now.

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/324247055109221453

 

[Infinitron]

Quite frankly I am not business savy - I just use common sense. I find hard time to solely blame LucasArts for what happened, because it all stems from every group doing what was in their best interest.

LucasArts is an entertainment company and their interest was to release a successful sequel to a hit game. The IP was theirs, the responsibility was theirs. Instead they shit the fucking bed because they were a poorly managed company, which is why they're gone.

They were forbidden from doing so when development of FO:NV began

MCA told me that had never been the case. He told me all Obsidian devs were and remain always free to post wherever they want.

You can choose not to trust MCA on that, of course

Ah I see. Yeah TBH I always had the feeling that was an urban legend. I feel bad for repeating it now.

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/324247055109221453

Welp.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

*sigh*

During development of Fallout New Vegas and its expansions (appx. 2009-2011), we were told that we could not post on the Codex.

Fucking Bethesduh.

 

[Anthony Davis]

It may appear all noble to you to finish the damn game, to but reality was such that because it was no longer beneficial to do so in order to alleviate untold damages to themselves (financial difficulties and lay-offs) it had to be done.

Dude, I don't give a fuck. The problem with "business savvy" gamers like you is that you become so interested in the inner workings of the gaming industry that you end up aligning yourselves, knowingly or not, with a party whose interests aren't aligned with those of gamers.

I understand that LucasArts had problems, but that doesn't concern me. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't do their job by allowing the game to be released unfinished. The gamer always comes first. Period.

You are both right.

As a customer, you should not have to care about the quality of the product or the problems creating the product.

As a member of the gamer culture, understanding how things work will help you appreciate your culture more... at least in my opinion.

 

[Semper]

plenty of licensed stuff could be left as dll's

k, that could be an option when there's no code integrated within the source , but they still have to negotiate with all the involved parties to get their green light. and until bioware keeps the source of nwn1 locked there's no way anything will happen.

That thread didn't originate out of the blue, though, as far as I remember.

various members just talked about the usefulness of a final patch and the source code. a mod thought about a request to obsidian/atari/hasbro. nothing more ever happended because of real life issues the aforementioned mod suffered from. since then there's no activity to the whole story.

 

[Anthony Davis]

*sigh*

During development of Fallout New Vegas and its expansions (appx. 2009-2011), we were told that we could not post on the Codex.

Fucking Bethesduh.

Could have been Bethesda, could not have been.

Josh and George would know better than I, but it is also entirely feasible that that was a restriction imposed on the FO team by Obsidian or even by themselves. I wasn't officially on the FO:NV team.

It is fairly common knowledge that The Codex and Obsidian have a sado/masochistic relationship... and no one would want it any other way.

 

[Roguey]

Josh did talk about New Vegas here ever-so-briefly http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...bsidian-for-bethesda.31852/page-3#post-746887

 

[Anthony Davis]

In 2012 there've been a couple of rumours that Atari/Obsidian might consider releasing the source code for NWN2's modding community

there was a rumor about that? thought it was just a thread at the bioboards where some die hards dreamed about the possibility of working with the source code, and debating if the release of the source would do any good for the community. now that atari is almost defunct, the rights to publish dnd software is tied to hasbro and wizards are getting ready for dnd next there's no way anything will happen to nwn2. plus the rights to aurora, on which electron is heavily based on, belong to bioware/ea, not to mention all the third party plugins like speedtree, facefx, granny, etc... obsidian only added to the code (renderer, functions, outdoor areas).

@anthony: could you shed some light on the nwn2's 1.24 patch? was it really finished and ready for release right before all this dnd/atari-trouble? what was fixed? any secrets about the plans for a third expansion?

I have never heard this rumor...

I would have to sit down and go to a hypnotist to remember what was in each patch... and I worked on all of them too.

 

[Mrowak]

Quite frankly I am not business savy - I just use common sense. I find hard time to solely blame LucasArts for what happened, because it all stems from every group doing what was in their best interest.

LucasArts is an entertainment company and their interest was to release a successful sequel to a hit game. The IP was theirs, the responsibility was theirs.

Wait... so the good parts that were in KotOR 2 are only thanks to Obsidian... but for the bad parts it's LA that's to blame. o_O

Even though it's blatantly obvious that it's Obsidian who didn't make it.

Instead they shit the fucking bed because they were a poorly managed company, which is why they're gone.

Well, they kinda were poorly managed in the recent years, but the chief consideration for their dissolution was the fact they *haven't been making any games*. What use does Disney have for a development studio that does not develop anything of substance? Thus they were axed and reduced in functionality to what they've been doing recently - managing the IP.

But this has nothing to do with the argument in question.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

It is fairly common knowledge that The Codex and Obsidian have a sado/masochistic relationship...

Enough for an official measure to be put into practice though? Sounds much more like Bethesduh, especially after the Rosh and Emil years.

 

[Semper]

I would have to sit down and go to a hypnotist to remember what was in each patch... and I worked on all of them too.

but you should know if 1.24 was ready for release, right?

 

[Infinitron]

Wait... so the good parts that were in KotOR 2 are only thanks to Obsidian... but for the bad parts it's LA that's to blame. o_O

This sophistry is getting tiresome. Obsidian developed the game's content, but LucasArts were ultimately in charge of managing it as a project.

It was supposed to be a slam dunk. A sequel to a hit game. Make more profit for less cost. Why would you ruin that? Why wouldn't you let your developer finish the job? It's not like they lied to you or failed to reach milestones. It's not like the development cycle was all that long in the first place.

LucasArts fucked up by letting Obsidian proceed with the understanding that the deadline had been extended and they should have absorbed the cost for that.

At a bare minimum, a post-release patch should have been funded to restore the game to its proper state.

 

[Mrowak]

Wait... so the good parts that were in KotOR 2 are only thanks to Obsidian... but for the bad parts it's LA that's to blame. o_O

This sophistry is getting tiresome. Obsidian developed the game's content, but LucasArts were ultimately in charge of managing it as a project.

It was supposed to be a slam dunk. A sequel to a hit game. Make more profit for less cost. Why would you ruin that? Why wouldn't you let your developer finish the job? It's not like they lied to you or failed to reach milestones.

Risk management. After certain point all of that benefits ceased to be viable


It's not like the development cycle was all that long in the first place.

True, but then again it's Obsidian's fault for not negotiationg it. Also they put priorities in wrong places. I hear that bloody Swoop minigame no one ever played was one of the top priorities - good call.

LucasArts fucked up by letting Obsidian proceed with the understanding that the deadline had been extended and they should have absorbed the cost for that.

Even though they clearly couldn't physically do it - that's the only reason the game was rushed to begin with. You may be pissed off at what you perceive as "foul play" but you cannot expect a heroic, self-sacrificial stance from the whole company, risk jobs and isolvency to release one, (possibly) good *game*. You called my defence of "the industry" as immature, but to be honest I find your idealism over a computer game to be... childish. Sorry, bro.

At a bare minimum

, a post-release patch should have been funded to restore the game to its proper state.

Now that's a legitimate complaint, but I wonder if Obsidian extended the offer to LA. The only reason why this was not allowed I can think of is that KotOR2 was an XBox game - you couldn't patch that.

 

[Infinitron]

Now that's a legitimate complaint, but I wonder if Obsidian extended the offer to LA.

I've read that they did.

You called my defence of "the industry" as immature, but to be honest I find your idealism over a computer game to be... childish. Sorry, bro.

LOL, seriously, screw you. I paid for KOTOR2. I have its box right here next to me. I deserved a complete game.

And excuse me, but I find it hard to believe that funding three additional months of development would have bankrupted George Lucas.

In the end of the day, LucasArts authorized the release of an unfinished game. I just don't think publishers should do that, ever.

 

[Crooked Bee]

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/324247055109221453

Tsk tsk MCA

(Ziets vs MCA: clash of the titans )

 

[Mrowak]

Now that's a legitimate complaint, but I wonder if Obsidian extended the offer to LA.

I've read that they did.

So it's probably as I wrote: due to inability to patch XBox release the idea was abandoned in order not to antagonize Microsoft and XBox players.

You called my defence of "the industry" as immature, but to be honest I find your idealism over a computer game to be... childish. Sorry, bro.

LOL, seriously, screw you. I paid for KOTOR2. I have its box right here next to me. I deserved a complete game.

Yes, you did and you do.

And excuse me, but I find it hard to believe that funding three additional months of development would have bankrupted George Lucas.

There was a reason they backed away and forced unfinished game on Christmas. It likely was not bankruptcy but certainly major financial difficulties.

In the end of the day, LucasArts authorized the release of an unfinished game. I just don't think publishers should do that, ever.

But they do, and they will do because - like are the parties in this quandary - they followed what was their mission: stay afloat and make money.

Now, I am not saying that what LA did is commendable. I only say it was natural in these circumstances. In the end it is important lesson for devs and gamers alike showcasing the exact working of the industry and what kind of difficulties one must face in development process whichever party you represent. For my part, I refuse to put the entire blame for this situation on LA.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Okay so I've dug up the email in which Chris replied to my question re: the rumor that Obsidian devs were prohibited from posting on or giving interviews to the Codex:

Obsidian employees can post anywhere they want, do interviews with whoever they want, and draw cartoons for whoever they want.

Hmm, technically it says "can", not "could", so Chris could've been referring to the situation as of 5/4/12 (the date of the email). So I guess technically that doesn't contradict what Ziets said.

 

[Infinitron]

Okay so I've dug up the email in which Chris replied to my question re: the rumor that Obsidian devs were prohibited from posting on or giving interviews to the Codex:

Obsidian employees can post anywhere they want, do interviews with whoever they want, and draw cartoons for whoever they want.

Hmm, technically it says "can", not "could", so Chris could've been referring to the situation as of 5/4/12 (the date of the email). In which case, he didn't really answer my question so I guess technically that doesn't contradict what Ziets said.

We'll see if George replies to my comment on Formspring.

 

[Grimlorn]

How long was Kotor 2's development time and how long was Kotor 1's?

New Vegas was developed in 18 months right? That's pretty quick. I'm guessing Bethesda spent at least a few years on Fallout 3. So why does Obsidian get these deals where they have to develop games in a short time compared to the game before it? Bethesda spent 5 years on Skyrim.

Why did FO3 get better reviews than New Vegas if they both had the same bugs? Was Bethesda spending a lot of money on resort trips for reviewers with FO3 and not New Vegas? You'd think Bethesda would have done Q&A for the game so it wasn't as buggy so the game would be more successful. I've heard both games had the same bugs because of the engine. FO3 fixed those bugs by the time New Vegas was being released and would have been easy to fix for that game as well right?

The fact of the matter is Lucas Arts destroyed the franchise. There was no interest in a Kotor 3 after Kotor 2 failed to do well, so it was turned into a MMO. Or word of mouth was so bad with Kotor 2's reception that they thought a Kotor 3 wouldn't do well.

 

[Random]

How long was Kotor 2's development time and how long was Kotor 1's?

New Vegas was developed in 18 months right? That's pretty quick. I'm guessing Bethesda spent at least a few years on Fallout 3. So why does Obsidian get these deals where they have to develop games in a short time compared to the game before it? Bethesda spent 5 years on Skyrim.

Why did FO3 get better reviews than New Vegas if they both had the same bugs? Was Bethesda spending a lot of money on resort trips for reviewers with FO3 and not New Vegas? You'd think Bethesda would have done Q&A for the game so it wasn't as buggy so the game would be more successful. I've heard both games had the same bugs because of the engine. FO3 fixed those bugs by the time New Vegas was being released and would have been easy to fix for that game as well right?

The fact of the matter is Lucas Arts destroyed the franchise. There was no interest in a Kotor 3 after Kotor 2 failed to do well, so it was turned into a MMO. Or word of mouth was so bad with Kotor 2's reception that they thought a Kotor 3 wouldn't do well.

Part of it is that Obsidian usually reuses assets and code for its sequels, which shortens the workload a huge amount.

 

[Infinitron]

Why did FO3 get better reviews than New Vegas if they both had the same bugs?

My take on this:

My hypothesis re: Obsidian and bugs, is that in Obsidian-style games, bugs are more destructive to the experience being conveyed.

What is a bug in a Bethesda game? It's just some weird thing to laugh at while you ride around on your horse killing things. You can just walk away from it.